Istari and their staves

[Ghanberryghan]

Now I'm sure this is one of many frequent topics for discussion, but there seems to be several ideas as to the significance of the wizards' staves and how important they were.
Here are the most common I've come across:

1. They serve as conduits for a wizard's power.

2. Merely symbolic of their prowess.

3. Both.

If we look at when Gandalf loses his staff on the bridge of Khazad-dum and falls, he is still able to kill the Balrog (obviously with magic). This must indicate that the staff is not necessary for a wizard to harness his power.

But then again Saruman gets his staff broken and is later described as having "lost all power, save his voice."

Now the clear difference between the two is that lost his staff due to a fight, whereas Saruman lost his due to Gandalf expelling him, and the braking of his staff was supposedly symbolic.
So maybe it's not so much the staff that is important, but more the rank and title of being a wizard that gives them such power.

Introducing....................................
Number 4!!!!!
My idea (and because I lack originality is probably many other people's as well) is that the staff is like a police badge:
A policeman has the power to arrest someone, is able to incapacitate a criminal, etc.
Gandalf lost his staff in a fight, which is the equivalent of a policeman having his badge torn off by a criminal. Thus still leaving him with the powers that he would have even if he had the badge.
Saruman had his staff taken off him by someone of higher authority, which is the same as a policeman being fired. An ex-policeman still knows how to incapacitate someone, and there is nothing stopping them from falsely arresting them, only they would have the law against them (or in this case the Valar).
The use of the word 'power' in the Scouring of the Shire is rather ambiguous, and could actually mean something more like right/justification. Frodo says Saruman has 'lost all power' which if put into an ex-policeman threatening to arrest someone context, could be seen as saying he's not allowed.

So what do you think? Could the staves of the 5 wizards be like police badges?


-PS: an extra question...

When Gandalf states about Saruman that "He has power still, I think, in Orthanc; to resist the Nazgul." Does this emphasize the point that maybe a wizard's power was not drawn from a staff?

[narfforc]

Yeh, I'd go with number 4 it sounds good. Welcome to the Downs by the way.

[Rumil]

I'd reckon that the staff was a conduit for the wizards' power, and a badge of office as well.

Gandalf seems to have brought down the Bridge at Khazad-Dum by breaking his staff upon it - perhaps a conduit for Gandalf's power, perhaps using some 'energy' stored within the staff - its difficult to tell. As well as hewing the Balrog with Glamdring it seems clear that there was serious spell-casting in the Battle of the Peak, so Gandalf could still do magic without the staff. Maybe Gandalf's death was even caused by utter magical exhaustion rather than physical wounds, and maube he would have fared better with his staff - speculation though!

As far as I remember the staves were issued in Valinor, so are likely pretty special!

Oh, and remember the to-do about Gandalf's staff at Edoras, though the assumption that Wizards required the staff appears wrong.

[Ghanberryghan]

Originally Posted by Rumil

I'd reckon that the staff was a conduit for the wizards' power, and a badge of office as well.

Gandalf seems to have brought down the Bridge at Khazad-Dum by breaking his staff upon it - perhaps a conduit for Gandalf's power, perhaps using some 'energy' stored within the staff - its difficult to tell. As well as hewing the Balrog with Glamdring it seems clear that there was serious spell-casting in the Battle of the Peak, so Gandalf could still do magic without the staff. Maybe Gandalf's death was even caused by utter magical exhaustion rather than physical wounds, and maube he would have fared better with his staff - speculation though!

As far as I remember the staves were issued in Valinor, so are likely pretty special!

Oh, and remember the to-do about Gandalf's staff at Edoras, though the assumption that Wizards required the staff appears wrong.

Yea I was thinking of it kind of like that, like a Wizard might also have far more abilities when he physically holds his staff, but he's not completely powerless without it, just weakened. Like if Saruman could resist the Nazgul without his staff it shows he's not powerless, but the fuss in Edoras shows that it must somehow enhance their power.

[Galadriel55]

Moreover, Gandalf points his staff at the things he wants to set on fire.
And where did he get a new staff from after he broke his on the bridge of Moria?

I think that the magic that anyone does comes from the willpower of that person. Incantations and staffs are probably just used to help direct the power to the correct action. However, people with inner power don't need staffs. If you define magician, you'd get someone with supernatural abilities. Galadriel does "magic" when she works her mirror. And she says that she can make the nirror show whatever she wants with her will. Aragorn enables the Grey Company to make the trip from the Path of the Dead through entire Gondor without much rest with his will, as is noted on a few occasions.
This would mean that wizards will still have their power if their staffs are broken, but it would be harder for the to release it to specific things.

By the way, I like the analogy with the policemen.

[Ghanberryghan]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Moreover, Gandalf points his staff at the things he wants to set on fire.
And where did he get a new staff from after he broke his on the bridge of Moria?

I think that the magic that anyone does comes from the willpower of that person. Incantations and staffs are probably just used to help direct the power to the correct action. However, people with inner power don't need staffs. If you define magician, you'd get someone with supernatural abilities. Galadriel does "magic" when she works her mirror. And she says that she can make the nirror show whatever she wants with her will. Aragorn enables the Grey Company to make the trip from the Path of the Dead through entire Gondor without much rest with his will, as is noted on a few occasions.
This would mean that wizards will still have their power if their staffs are broken, but it would be harder for the to release it to specific things.

By the way, I like the analogy with the policemen.

Oh thank you!
But yea I was always under the impression that if the staffs were needed for any reason, then them being broken would mean that they were unable to do certain things IE No longer able to shoot fireballs, but stall able to use words of command.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Moreover, Gandalf points his staff at the things he wants to set on fire.
And where did he get a new staff from after he broke his on the bridge of Moria?

After Gandalf is sent back, Gwaihir takes him to Lorien, where Galadriel gives him newly washed white robes and I'd imagine where he also got a new staff

With the power of the wizards' staves I've always thought Hama made an interesting comment:

"The staff in the hand of a wizard may be more than a prop for age," said Hama. He looked hard at the ash-staff on which Gandalf leaned.~The King of the Golden Hall

It is an ordinary (at least looks ordinary) wooden staff, but Hama adds an interesting point, "in the hand of a wizard." There is no power in a staff, other than being used as a prop, but in the hand of a wizard, they can be used as ways to focus their power. Like how Gandalf uses his staff to break the bridge of Khazad-dum.

At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand. A blinding sheet of white flame sprang up. The bridge cracked. Right at the Balrog's feet it broke,...~The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Handy tool to break and smite things. Surely Gandalf wouldn't want to power-punch the bridge.