Small hands do them because they must...

[A Little Green]

When once again reading the LotR, something in the council of Elrond really started bothering me, and I wonder if someone here had a reasonable explanation for it.

Even before Frodo announces that he will take the ring, Elrond and Gandalf both seem to know that Frodo will take it. Well, of course it could be just their assumptions, them being Wise and all, but they actually seem to pressure Frodo by their hints.

First of all, Elrond's

The road must be trod, but it will be very hard. And neither strength nor wisdom will carry us far upon it. This quest may be attempted by the weak with as much hope as the strong. Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.

seems almost cruel to me. Nothing awry in there except for the fact that it was said before Frodo announced he'd take the Ring.

Also, Gandalf tells Bilbo to

Get ready to write a sequel, when they come back.

This statement also caught my eye. Why would Bilbo write a sequel if someone else went and not Frodo?

So. What do you think? Are they pressuring Frodo on purpose? Or do they know somehow that he has already decided to go and try to encourage him? Or are those quotes just accidental slips? Or am I exaggerating? Or something else?

[radagastly]

Not having re-read this part of the book recently, I must be somewhat speculative. At this point in the story, thr Ring belongs to Frodo (as much as it can belong to anyone but the Dark Lord.) I think both Gandalf and Elrond were insightful enough to know that Frodo would not very likely surrender the Ring voluntarily, so whatever might happen at the Council of Elrond, it could only amount to nothing more than advice to Frodo as to what he should do. Whatever they chose to do with the Ring, that choice would have to acceed to Frodo's choices in the matter.

[Boromir88]

Fascinating questions The Little Green...nice thread idea.

I think there are several "options" here...the first being perhaps Elrond and Gandalf already knew that Frodo would accept the task. As after he does, Elrond chimes in with:

"I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will."~The Council of Elrond

Also, you may find this thread (The Scouring of the Shire) to be a nice read. There was a little discussion about how Tolkien set up a "complimentary balance" between the high, noble characters and the simple, ordinary ones. As he would write to Milton Waldman in Letter 131:

A moral of the whole is the obvious one that without the high and noble, the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless.

The 'high and noble' are there to do the brunt work like dragon slaying, fighting in epic battles, and perhaps carrying the little hobbits through a blizzard? Yet, without the "simple and ordinary" hobbits (such as Frodo and Bilbo) the heroic feats of the 'high and noble' are meaningless. Because the high and noble will not agree (they might not even succeed) in doing the dirty tasks, like bearing a Ring under tremendous agony and strain across Middle-earth. The high and noble will do the heroic deeds, while the "weak and small hands" will do the dirty tasks, undergoing extreme phsyical and mental pain, that the high and noble won't do.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Interesting topic, LG. Though personally I think, as we Czechs say, that the dog is buried elsewhere, there may be something to what you are saying here. Elrond indeed seems to hint something, to me it rather looks like that he knows Frodo is going to take the task, but (hypocritically?) tries to push the thought backwards and tries to look, or maybe even convince himself to think, that anybody can be chosen yet. I just imagined the funny situation that often happens among schoolchildren or so: a request is raised and every high Elf Lord just sits and looks to the ground and thinks "Let's be silent and pretend that I am not here, Frodo will eventually take it".

Anyway, I believe with a little good will at least the second quote you provided can be relativised: Bilbo could write the sequel even if the quest did not concern Frodo personally, because the tale would still concern Bilbo's Ring (which is actually why the old hobbit stood up in the first place, so the idea that Gandalf's response should be understood in this way is very plausible here).

[Groin Redbeard]

Great thread Little Green! Well Elrond did have the gift of forsight so he very well could have seen that Frodo was going to take the ring. I alsough think that Elrond didn't think that a man was strong enough to carry the ring, and elves don't trust dwarves, so that leaves a Frodo or another elf.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Interesting topic, LG. Though personally I think, as we Czechs say, that the dog is buried elsewhere, there may be something to what you are saying here. Elrond indeed seems to hint something, to me it rather looks like that he knows Frodo is going to take the task, but (hypocritically?) tries to push the thought backwards and tries to look, or maybe even convince himself to think, that anybody can be chosen yet. I just imagined the funny situation that often happens among schoolchildren or so: a request is raised and every high Elf Lord just sits and looks to the ground and thinks "Let's be silent and pretend that I am not here, Frodo will eventually take it".

Anyway, I believe with a little good will at least the second quote you provided can be relativised: Bilbo could write the sequel even if the quest did not concern Frodo personally, because the tale would still concern Bilbo's Ring (which is actually why the old hobbit stood up in the first place, so the idea that Gandalf's response should be understood in this way is very plausible here).

Heh we have the same saying in Denmark. . .

I am not convinced by your arguments, they just don't fit with the view I have of the different characters. Why would Elrond try to convince him self that another choise could be made if that was not indeed the case?
Is it not more plausible that Elrond is saying these things to give Frodo a chance to take this task, he seems to be ensuring Frodo that he is just as able to take this task as anybody else. If not directly encouraging Frodo to take the task. . . . For me it seems likely that a hobbit amongst great Dwarven, Elven and Human worriors would feel small and insignificant and thus be discouraged from taking the ring.

Yeah Bilbo could definitly write a sequal no matter who embarked on the jurney to Mount Doom, but it does seem more likely that he would do so if it included Frodo.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I am not convinced by your arguments, they just don't fit with the view I have of the different characters. Why would Elrond try to convince him self that another choise could be made if that was not indeed the case?
Is it not more plausible that Elrond is saying these things to give Frodo a chance to take this task, he seems to be ensuring Frodo that he is just as able to take this task as anybody else. If not directly encouraging Frodo to take the task. . . . For me it seems likely that a hobbit amongst great Dwarven, Elven and Human worriors would feel small and insignificant and thus be discouraged from taking the ring.

I'm not sure you understood me correctly (or if yes, then I misunderstood you ). I was referring to the time before Frodo said that he's going to take the Ring. I mean that if Elrond had some foreknowledge that Frodo is going to take the Ring, he deliberately tried to behave as if he didn't know that, and asked the question as if anyone could have said "I'll go". What I said was supposed to aim to the opposition of what LG suggested, that maybe Elrond pushed Frodo to take the Ring by his remarks about small hands. I say otherwise: Elrond knew that Frodo is going to take the Ring, so he (unintentionally?) let out the remark about small hands, but he tried the choice to look free, even though he knew how it's going to end.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I think it was me who misunderstood you. . .I think.

Let me just say that I find it very hard to belive that Elrond would say stuff like that unintentionally.

Secondly unless he had some sort of forthsight then I really doubt that he knew the outcome! He probably had a good idea what the outcome would be and which outcome would be most desirable, but even the very wise cannot see all ends.

[Galadriel]

"The road must be trod, but it will be very hard. And neither strength nor wisdom will carry us far upon it. This quest may be attempted by the weak with as much hope as the strong. Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere."

I actually took that as an encouragement to common folk, not to Frodo in particular. I think Gandalf is implying that it would not make much difference if a Hobbit or an Elf took the Ring, since its power could ultimately control any being, and that perhaps the folk that had been hitherto neglected in history would be brought to the light because the 'greater' people simply would not do the most difficult task. If anything, I think he is praising the Hobbits for their valour, and also for their willingness to go into peril even though they are not directly related to Sauron or the Ring (save Bilbo's act of picking it up).