[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Those are some good points Fain Clawmirth.

Tar-Palantir:

Love that Smeagol, eh?

Yep, of course!!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

He had plenty of opportunity to repent after he lost the Ring to Bilbo. And when it comes to showing mercy on him, the Elves of Mirkwood did just that; at least as much as Frodo gave him anyway. And the Ring wasn't even near to tempt him to poor behavior during those days.

He really didn't have much opportunity for repent. Think about it. He had the ring for about 500 years, and then he loses it. Having an addiction to something for that long does not simply make the addiction go away. Besides, at first he must be extremely furious that he lost the ring. It's an initial reaction. So what does he do? He goes out searching for it. He finds his way to Mordor, only to be tortured by Sauron. That had to spark some anger and hatred. He was forced back to Mirkwood by Aragorn, against his will. And then he had to put up with a stern wizard who is not so kind when his main priority is to question and obtain information. Then he was held captive by the elves of Mirkwood. He was bent on finding the ring but was delayed by those elves. Yes, he recieved mercy, but that was not what he needed at all. Being delayed would only make him more furious. Compassion, acceptance, or love would have been much greater than mercy. And stubborn people do not at all like being held captive against their will, or forced to do anything else against their will either. So it seems that wherever he went after leaving the mountain, he was delayed and treated inproperly.

And it doesn't really matter if the ring is around or not. The addiction is still there. The desire is still there.

Oh yes, he came out. His longing for the Ring proved stronger than his fear of the Orcs, or even of the light. After a year or two he left the mountains. You see, though still bound by the desire of it...

-Ch. 2 The Shadow of the Past, FotR

He still longs for the ring. The part of his mind that the ring controlled when he had it still had control of it even when Gollum didn't have it. I think of it as a virus- it stays with you. It still corrupts his mind, even if it is not present. And if you say that the ring no longer controls that part of the mind, since Gollum no longer has it, then fine. If that's the case, then there's a void, and the only way that Gollum's mind knows how to fill it is by getting the ring back. So, the desire fills the void until the ring can. But the desire is not as strong as the ring itself was against the part of Gollum's mind that was still Smeagol's. So Smeagol's part starts to regain what originally belonged to him. So that's why he was riviving a little. Now I'm sort of trailing off...

Frodo had Gollum's drug, his mistress; that is the only reason he showed any respect or caring of Frodo. Otherwise Gollum would have been gone in a flash...

Well, that's how Gollum felt for Frodo at first, only because Frodo had the ring. But it changed. Frodo showed Gollum love, compassion, and acceptance, and all three of those (especially together) came as a shock to him. After this, Gollum began to respect Frodo as a person, not solely as the ringbearer or his master. Frodo knows what Gollum is going through, so he symathizes with him. Gollum deeply repects Frodo for this. It sort of starts to build a relationship between them. So, the ring is not the only reason Gollum respects Frodo.

And Gollum had his chances to take the ring but he refused to. He wasn't 'gone in a flash', as you put it. Instead he tried to take up Frodo's offering of acceptance. Then Sam wakes up, and well, you know what happens.

dininziliel:

I agree with some of what you said, however, there are some parts that I disagree with. You can probably see what I mean from what I said when referring to Tar-Palantir. I really agree with what you said here

Love can affect evil

That is very true.

As pointed out, Smeagol chose Gollum--he set his course when he murdered Deagol. Even after this, there were still chances for redemption, but .. he chose the Ring. So, into the pit he has to go!

I don't think that Smeagol permenantly set his course, however, I belive that he got in a rut. He could get out of it, but sadly he never did. He sometimes did redeem himself in a way by choosing not to take the ring, however it wasn't enough and in the end he did choose the ring. However I don't think he deserved to die, but he did go into the pit anyways. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

And, one thing that I noticed with you is that you seem to like putting quotes at the end of your post. Keep doing it if you want but it is best to explain quotes if you put them in your writing, and if you do explain them, you should explain them after your quote. Just some advice if you want it. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Tar-Palantir

Gollum's integral part in the destruction of the Ring WAS his repentance for deeds done.

Maybe it's just me, but that doesn't really make sense.

Gollum's 'desire' for the Ring - which would never have left in my opinion. That is why Frodo was his 'master' - Gollum revered him in a twisted way.

I don't believe the desire would have left either, but it could have died down. And if the ring was destroyed and Gollum still alive, maybe the desire would leave with the ring. It's hard to say. But, again, I don't think that Frodo was his master only because of the ring or the desire of it.