[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

dininziliel:

Does this make him a Ringbearer?

No, that doesn't, but Tom did put the ring on and didn't dissapear. Also, he seemed to have no desire for it other than curiosity. Maybe he was like, "What is the big deal with this ring?" and then he puts it on, nothing happens and he probably thinks, "what's so big about this? It doesn't do anything." Maybe Tom, in his land, was unaffected by things while he was in his own borders. Just a thought, but the point is he did put it on. Maybe, if he were outside those specified borders, the ring might have some effect on him. But he is an enigma and we know reletively little of him, especially what he is.

Bill Ferny:

His life in the Misty Mountains was as much a product of his own desire, as it was the ring’s desire to remain hidden.

Interesting thought. I always thought that the ring didn't count on Gollum hiding in the Misty Mountains, but the ring's desire to remain hidden is a good one. Then, after rethinking, I don't think that it ever expected Gollum to stay for that long. But now, thinking again, maybe it wanted to stay hidden all that time. Someone (I'm really sorry, I can't remember who) suggested that the ring left Gollum to get out of the Misty Mts. because of a sort of sense or link with Sauron. When Sauron rose to power again, it was only about 2-3 years before the ring left Gollum. Was this idea brought up in this thread? Sorry, I can't remember.

If anything, the ring resembles an abusive tyrant-like spouse more than a narcotic.

Actually, I think of the ring more as a leech, cancer, or a virus. A leech, because it attaches to you, not only physically, but more importantly, mentally. It sucks the life out of you. All of your youth, health, (sometimes) reputation (if it can), and friends/family. And also, in doing so takes away your [free]will, bit by bit, and as much as it can, sometimes until it is sucked dry. I see it as a cancer because it can be very dangerous and deadly. It attacks vital parts, but unlike certain cancers, the ring goes specifically for the mind. And it attacks the mind and eventually dominates the mind. And, I see it as a virus because for one, a virus can never be cured, just as the ring has permenant effects and a ringbearer will never be fully healed of the consequences from bearing/wearing the ring. It infects the mind and spreads out. It eventually dominates the mind and can sway a ringbearer's decisions and possibly control them. One reason why I don't really look at it as a tyrant spouse is because you said

still loves...the ring

when actually he hated it and more-so loathed it, but he was stuck with it by the addiction, which shows his dependency on the ring.

On to your post after that one:

Given a bit more time (say 500 to 1000 years) Bilbo would have achieved ultimate isolation and privacy by having murdered every hobbit in the Shire.

If you actually think about it, that would never happen. Either the ring would have left Biblo and found its way back to Sauron, or Sauron would have the ring taken by force.

Frodo is the only ring bearer that is not initially tempted to take the ring (and maybe Sam as well)

Well, you can include Tom also, but does he really count? And what do you mean by this? I could say Isildur wasn't tempted since after he cut it off Sauron, it was up for grabs. Please explain.

dininziliel:

Denial, self-centeredness, gotta-have-it-now, despair, tunnel vision (a form of denial), etc., are just some of the 101+ forms of fear. And fear is what paves the road for evil.

What is it with you and fear??? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] But really, what is it? I don't think I agree with your statement, but it just get's so confusing when you add all those other factors into it that I get lost in my own thoughts...

I think the movie...

Well, I don't want to be a jerk or anything, and I'm not singleing you out, but please, can we leave the movies out of this? The movies were mentioned other times too, but this forum is the books section, so can we leave it at that? And it's not that when the movies were mentioned here that they were really brought into the debate, but I don't want it to get confusing or have others start bringing the movies into the discussions. I am asking and being calm as to avoid some big argument.

Galadriel's passing on the Ring so important is that she went through all the phases of awareness and acceptance in choosing light over darkness in a matter of minutes before Frodo's eyes. By the time she had arrived at her final choice, it was no longer a sacrifice or matter of self-denial--there was simply no further point or reason to take the Ring.

I don't neccesarily agree with this. What you said is part of it, but I think a bigger part is that she herself bore a ring. She had experience and knowledge on the matter and even though her ring was not the one ring, it was still a ring that having, can show the dangers of the ring. Do you understand what I'm saying? And even though she rejected the ring, it was still hard to do, as the ring tempted her desires. She did have reason to take the ring (to achieve power), but she was well aware of the folly of this and the falsehood of the offer teh ring presented to her. Here's a question, did Frodo come up with the idea to give the ring to Galadriel, or did the ring influence him to do this? Frodo might have done it to rid himself of the burden or to give it to someone wiser thinking it would be better off in their hands (or on her finger). And the ring might have done this to have someone powerful take it (the ring) so it could corrupt her and make it easier for Sauron to pinpoint where the ring was, and easier for Sauron to get it back, and to prevent it from being destroyed. Or was it both? Just a thought.

Think of what happened when she trained her attention on Boromir...the evil inside him...

I don't think that there was really evil in him. I think it may have looked like there was evil and that it didn't like Galadriel 'shining her light' on it. But I think that anyone would be freaked out if someone looked into your mind and tested you through horrible temptations.

Tar-Palantir:

Bilbo's reclusiveness might be a clue to the nature of his relationship with the Ring, although he did also spend much of his time with Sam, enjoying the telling of his tales. I love this idea:


quote:
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Bilbo would have achieved ultimate isolation and privacy by having murdered every hobbit in the Shire.
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I don't think that Bilbo's reclusivness was due that much to the ring. He was not the type of person that Smeagol was and because of that, he was never kicked out of the Shire (which could have happened if he was like Smeagol), as Smeagol was kicked out of his community. And Bilbo always had someone that loved him and someone to love back (Frodo, Gandalf...). Besides that, Bilbo, even before the ring, seemed to be sort of isolated. True, it might be a clue to the relationship of the ring, but it is hard to tell.

Smeagol definitely believed that he deserved that ring for his birthday.

I don't really think so. I think that this was his front for taking the ring and killing Deagol, which I think haunted him all his life. And maybe the ring haunted him for this or, it didn't and it 'helped' Gollum come up with that excuse. But, you never know, after all that time he could very well have believed if lied about it so much. Some people actually lie so much that they believe themselves. I think that this was Gollum's way of pushing his guilt aside, which didn't help at all.

dininziliel:

Addicts/alcoholics get stuck on the habitrail of More. Gottagetit, gotta get more, gottagetit now.

Yes, they become addicted, and need it more frequently until they are consumed by the drug (alcohol is a drug).

the notion of More doesn't seem to be a factor in either behavior or attitude. It is as mere possession of the Ring is sufficient. Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo didn't go trying to score more rings or to more of a high off the Ring--they simply became progressively lost and consumed within its consciousness.

Yes, because there is no possibiltiy of more. Just to have it is enough, but you can draw levels of it by how obsessed they are if the ring, and how much time a day they need to feel the ring, look at it, put it on, etc. It is not limited as you can always wear the ring, so it is infinite.

Tar-Palantir:

The theory that one is too many and a thousand never enough.

Well, I see it as 'more' being too much. When you get to that point, you know you're addicted. And everytime you want or need more, it is the drug talking. It shows your addiction adn dependency of it.

when the drug stops working but the addict can't stop needing it.

As time goes on and the more you use the drug, you naturally develop a tolerance to it. The bigger the tolerance, the more you need to consume to reach your high and satisfaction, and after a while it becomes a matter of your tolerance vs. your addiction. You're not becomeing satisfied, but you still need the drug, and that's the point where the user finds themself stuck in their own rut.

...because that doesn't fill the hole properly.

Actually no. When you no longer reach that high, or get bored, you move on. You search for other drugs, bigger and harder. It doesn't matter what fills your hole as long as it gives you tht feeling, and satisfies your need for it. It doesn't have to be what your used to. If alcohol didn't work anymore, then you'd maybe move on to marijuana, and after that, you'd be wide open to many other drugs. Weed is a gateway drug as it leads to many others. You'd get bored of weed and move on to coke, and then you might be doing heroine and look how far you've gone just to satisfy that need. You don't care what kind of drug, as long as it fills that widening gap of your need. Well, with the ring, you can't go any higher, but take a look at Galadriel. She had a ring, and then she was tempted by the one ring. It's like if her ring was beer. She drinks it just because she likes the taste, not so she can get drunk. Ocassionally, she probably might get drunk. I'm sure she likes it. When the one ring comes along, it can represent weed. She wants to do it, realizing that she can get high, which would be so much greater than her occasional drunkness, she assumes. However, she also realizes the dangers of doing this and wisely she refuses. The one ring had an ultimate downward spiral to it and she was well aware of it. So rather than taking it, and getting what the ring offered, she refuses it and avoids her downfall. Do you see what I mean?

On to your next post, after mine:

Gollum was NOT repented during that scene

Yes that is true, but he was on the verge of being repented. And I have to say that he would have if Sam had not waken up or at least refrained from insulting Gollum.

Had he been TRULY willing to give up his debauchery then the lengths he would have needed to go to were right there at his feet and he did not choose them.

He was truly willing at that moment and (I assume) made the decision not to lead them to Shelob. But he could not activly lead them away from Shelob until they started moving again on their way. But before he could fulfill it, Sam prevents it. He wakes up and you know the story, then Gollum changes his mind and his chance for repent is gone.

Do you know any practicing addicts?

Yes.

There is nearly always remorse for their actions or for things they left behind. (As evidenced in Gollum's last moments with Frodo. But remorse alone is not enough.)

Yes, but Gollum had more than just remorse, he had a will to change taken away by Sam.

No one person can get them sober OR cause them to keep using. (Frodo in this case can not assuming full responsibility, and neither can Sam, it is Gollum's responsibility.)

It is Gollum's responsibility as you said. Gollum got a hold of this (even if only for a minute) and couldn't have done it without help from Frodo. Frodo and Sam do not have responsibility in this, you are right, but Sam has fault in causing Gollum from losing his responsibility.

Even if they get sober the risk is high they will use again. (This one's obvious, you said yourself that Ringbearers never get over it 100%, I would add that is especially true for one placed as precariously as Gollum is.)

True, but once you get past the step of giving it up, it is much easier from there. He could have held out until it was destroyed. If he truly wanted to change he would have left Frodo and Sam to do it when they got far enough that they did not need Gollum's help, avoiding the temptation of the ring. After that, the threat of the ring is gone and a great burden would be lifted. Although he would have probably died shortly after.

They have an uncanny knack for biting the hand that feeds them. (Just ask Frodo the nine-fingered, or Aragorn, or Sam who also got bitten. And those are just literal examples.)

But it is different after he gives it up for good. He would have stopped this.

Cannot tell friend from foe, everybody seems as a foe. (This is how an addict hurts everybody around them. Their actions become more and more self-centered and everyone else becomes a meal ticket, and everyone else becomes 'responsible' for their plight, "poor little me" "poor Smeagol" "why me"? usually followed by "why not that guy instead?" That dog don't hunt, it's their responsibility).

This is not neccessarily true. This can happen in some cases, but it most definately does not apply to all.

It's about more than just Gollum though, what about the others that were tempted or succumbed? How do you see it all tying together with Gollum?

It is more than just about Gollum however, I like referring to Gollum most as we have the most infromation Gollum when looking at ringbearers. I'm just referring to the ring part of their lives. With Frodo, you see a lot, and you see how first hand he is affected by the ring, but with Gollum, we have a history of him and see frist hand the affects of the ring, and the desire/addiction of it.

We have discussed the Drug/Addict scenario pretty thouroughly, maybe somwone has some other brainstorms?

Yes, but surprisingly we haven't discussed a major aspect of this; depression.

The Saucepan Man:

Time does not actually slow down, it only does so in Sam's mind.

I think maybe it is another enhancement the ring gives. Maybe it is not time slowing down in Sam's mind, but rather the ring speeding up the mind of Sam, so everything seems slower.

Presumably, it can not physically move, in the sense of jumping off its bearer's finger, or out of his pocket, so this too must be some kind of effect that it has on the bearer's mind, making him do something that he cannot consciously recall doing. The Ring doesn't escape from Gollum, it causes him to drop it.

I also thought that the ring could not physically move, but it actually can. The only way it can move is by incresing/decreasing size. I don't know how big it would get or how small, but it changes to fit the new ringbearer. And, the ring does escape from Gollum (well not really escape, I say it was more of a 'ditching'). It grew just a little bit bigger, so it could slip off, using the struggle between Gollum and his meal, and the force of gravity. I think though, sometimes it tries to 'escape' by influencing the decisions of the ringbearer. Like when I rambled on about how the ring might have tried to get to Galadriel.