[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

However, the point still stands that when it came to a confrontation based on innate power alone, Elrond had the greatest chance of victory. It is Elrond who is given the most powerful ring. It is Elrond, who holds out against Sauron's siege too. Melian was a Maia on par and perhaps greater than Sauron. Luthien was an elf greater than Sauron. Six thousand years and over 60 generations down the line, this same ancestry is still giving Aragorn great healing powers.

I beg to differ. I see Galadriel as taking Melian's place in the TA when it comes to a confrontation with the main villain. Compare:

Who knows now the counsels of Morgoth? Who can measure the reach of his thought, who had been Melkor, mighty among the Ainur of the Great Song, and sat now, a dark lord upon a dark throne in the North, weighing in his malice all the tidings that came to him, and perceiving more deeds and purposes of his enemies that even the wisest of them feared, save Melian the Queen? To her often the thought of Morgoth reached out, and there was foiled.

--The Sil, of Turin Turambar (an almost exact copy of this passage is found in COH, The Land of Bow and Helm)

"But do not think that only by singing amid the trees, nor even by the slender arrows of elven-bows, is this land of Lothlorien maintained and defended against its Enemy. I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see my thought. But still the door is closed!"

--Galadriel, The Mirror of Galadriel, FOTR.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

In my opinion nobility is about character and not just great deeds. I would say Arwen was a more pure character than Galadriel. In the same way that Tuor could be said to be more pure than Turin, even if he was lesser in power. Galadriel was contemplating stealing the ring from Frodo and her temptation was greater than Aragorn or Gandalf, who too were offered the ring.

Can you tell a clean plate from an unused plate? It's one thing to go through trials and come out unscathed (which realistically never happens, near every character has some flaw), and it's another to not go through any trials at all and be nice and shiny. If I understand you right, you respect the ones that do not show any wear-and-tear of usage on them, even if they are clean. But I respect Galadriel more, because she is more flawed, perhaps, and has had many more trials than Arwen - and still she remains the clean plate, though with a chipped edge or a dent.

As for the deeds, once again - the refusal for temptation is the deed. You count it as a flaw. I count it as a refusal to succumb to a flaw. In your eyes it makes one lesser - because she was tempted, and allowed herself to be tempted badly. In my eyes, Galadriel's refusal to temptation makes her greater - because she had the nettle to resist the temptation. The greater the temptation, the greater the strength put into resisting it. If you don't have a strong temptation, you did not display sich strength of mind and will.

You cannot say that Arwen is better than Galadriel because Arwen was not tempted so badly by the Ring, because she was not tempted at all. You could compare Galadriel to Gandalf, to Frodo, Sam, Gollum, Boromir, even Aragorn to some extent, but not Arwen. Not in this case.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

They won against a more powerful army, than the rebels faced. The desire to leave and travel ME was not inherently a bad choice. If they had petitioned the Valar reasonably (like Galadriel does in some accounts) then the Valar would have granted their request. It was the manner of the their rebelling, which led to the curse.

Neither of which is what I'm talking about. I am not reciting The Sil; I am trying to explain the desire of many of the Exiles. To build a kingdom of their own, and make their own, without the Valar handing them everything. Like you want to make your own food instead of just heating up frozen foods. It is not about what they ended up doing - fighting a war, losing a war, winning a war, - it's about what they wanted to do before it all went rolling downhill.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Ingwe may not be the most exciting character, but I dare say he is a better elf than Feanor.

Certainly, Ingwe doesn't start a World War. But then, as you said, he's quite boring, and he gives me no emotion whatsoever. I cannot respect him for being good, because there wasn't much of an option (leaving with the Noldor does not count, since the Vanyar were not affected by Morgoth's lies in the first place). He's an unused plate. You can't judge a plate without using it. On the contrary, I'm sure everyone will find some respect (at least!) for the likes of Finrod and Fingolfin, who, despite their brothers and neighbours and everything still try to be good. Even if they fail at it (which is debatable, but beside the point). I respect Fingolfin, who basically committed suicide, more than I respect Ingwe.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Morwen is my favourite female character and only second to Turin in my favourite characters, but she was flawed too. If Turin and her, had been less proud then their lives very possibly may have been better, but perhaps not as great. That being said Turin and Morwen were both too proud. They were both great, but their pride was their greatest fault.

Very true. Their main flaws were pride and deafness/blindness to truth and good advice. But they try to be good. Even if they fail utterly (which just adds to the beauty of the story). Unlike Ingwe, who doesn't even have to try.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I disagree. We know Arwen's character, but we don't know much of her deeds. Her character is similar to Luthien. Her giving Frodo the necklace was not a coincidence. She is the first one to notice the ill effects that the ring has on Frodo. She realises that healing is impossible for him in ME and arranges for him to go the Tol Eressea.

Firstly, in my opinion, we know only as much about her character as her deeds and a few descriptions allow us to perceive. She looked like Luthien, probably inherited some of her power/wisdom/insight/foresight, possibly inherited some of her character. But I cannot say she had the same character, at least based on the few actions that we do know. I cannot see Luthien sitting at home weaving a banner when Beren is off to god knows where trying to throw down a being who is a head higher than everyone else, metaphorically speaking, of course. Just like I can't see Arwen galloping off to the Paths of the Dead to...? Dunno. Help out somehow.

From the fact that she gives Frodo the necklace, I see that Arwen has wisdom and foresight. Good qualities, but precious little when it comes to character. Any average elf of the TA has this, though perhaps is lesser measure. Her metaphorical giving her place to Frodo is only possible because she chose mortality. It is dependant on her main deed, the choice between Aragorn and life.