[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Boro

The tricky part is, Pride can lead you to greatness, and reaching accomplishments that no one thought possible. With that said, the same pride is a slippery slope to one's own downfall. I think in the case with Feanor and Turin, is while their pride was their reason for achieving Greatness, their pride leads to the inevitable Fall.

Agreed on all counts.

So, when talking about the context of Middle-earth, it doesn't matter whether one agrees with Tolkien's interpretation of ofermod. What matters is Tolkien's opinion on it and how it's present in his story. Ofermod is thus the "bad pride," it is the "excessive pride," which can be seen in a wide range of Tolkien's characters.

Ok, I see it now. I see your point.

As far as Morwen, I really have no opinion, or it's kind of similar to my opinion on Denethor. Many flaws as a parent as a leader, but I can't hate them because I do see good traits, possibly redeeming traits.

Ah, I think I see the source of our disagreement about Morwen. You see the bad side of her, but say that she is redeemed in your eyes because of her good qalities. I, on the other hand, do not condemn her because of these traits, and therefore she has nothing to be redeemed from in my eyes.

Although, as you said, Tolkien's opinion on ofermod is not too positive, Morwen is a character loved and respected, despite her seemingly excessive pride (not only by me ). The whole Narn is written with the idea that Hurin's family brought ruin to all around them and brought about the Fall of three Elven kingdoms, but nonetheless are revered.

This is what makes me laugh though at the critics who will say Tolkien only wrote "completely bad or completely good" characters. I mean there are a few characters who, whether intended or not, come off that way. But, for the most part, I think there are more Denethors and Morwens than there are Elronds and Gandalfs.

I don't think even Gandalf and Elrond are really completely good. And Morgoth is not completely bad. They might be very very very light- or dark-grey, but not white or black. (Gndalf the White, haha...). I remember saying this on a different thread but I can't remember which; someone cited there Tolkien's letter in which he specifically said that Melkor is not purely evil.

Originally Posted by Inzil

No, the pregnancy was not her fault. The text says though, that she delayed her decision on what to do in the event Morgoth won the battle, even though Húrin had specifically told her not to wait, but to leave as soon as she heard of ill news. She did not do so. And the desire to avoid being an "alms-guest" of Thingol is cited as one of the things foremost on her mind.

I do believe it also said that she was "cheated by false hope", and believed that Hurin will soon return to Dor-lomin.

I never meant to say that Morwen, or Túrin for that matter, were all bad. My point on both is that whatever mischief Morgoth had in mind for them was exacerbated by their personality flaws: in both cases pride was the main factor. If they'd been able to curb that, the effects of the curse would likely have been lessened.

But they weren't, and it wasn't. And what's there to do about it, except for try to understand why they weren't?