[Formendacil]

Part of the problem with Túrin's pride--since we're on the subject--is that he is ruled by it, rather than ruling it himself. Normally, this backwards reality of self control is thought of with regards to his fate ("Master of Fate by fate mastered"), but "Master of Pride by pride mastered" would have applied as well--if Túrin had ever claimed the title "Master of Pride" (which would have been ridiculously vain of him if he had anyway...). Perhaps it's just as well that he didn't.

The thing is, Túrin had things to properly be proud of: a great father, a great mother, and skills of his own that, Tolkien certainly indicates, were greater than any (or at least many) of those around him: when the Dragonhelm left Doriath's borders, he was sorely missed; when the outlaws took him in, he was rightly recognized.

The problem for Túrin is that he made no distinctions in his pride about when it was appropriate, when it was not. His challenges to the staid Elf-lords who wanted to avoid battle with Morgoth were not necessarily bad advice--note that Ulmo's message to Turgon was, like Túrin's advice, counter to conventional "Elvenking wisdom."

The problem for Túrin is, of course, his pride. I don't think there's any way one can deny that, and I certainly don't wish too. The thing is, he wasn't without reasons to be proud, and Túrin's pride was *NOT* enough to ensure his downfall: Glaurung had to enspell him at the Fall of Nargothrond to make sure he didn't go after Finduilas (about which, I would say, it is strongly suggested that Túrin would have avoided his fate--which was incest-driven, after all--if he had rescued Finduilas). Notably too, the fate that Glaurung tempts him away from Finduilas with is *not* pride in his neglected Lordship of Dor-Lómin or something similar, but concern for his mother and sister. Admittedly, Túrin's pride is connected to his feelings for his family, but I do not think it is a clear-cut case of "bad pride" that condemns Túrin.

And, likewise, Morwen. Without adding paragraphs more here, I daresay our judgment of her would be very different if the outcomes had been otherwise, or if we did not know what they would be.