[aiea]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Quote:
I am afraid I have been far too casual about 'magic' and especially the use of the word; though Galadriel and other show by the criticism of the 'mortal' use of the word, that the thought about it is not altogether casual. But it is a v. large question, and difficult; and a story which, as you so rightly say, is largely about motives (choice, temptations etc.) and the intentions for using whatever is found in the world, could hardly be burdened with a psuedo-philosophic disquisition! I do not intend to involve myself in any debate whether 'magic' in any sense is real or really possible in the world. But I suppose that, for the purposes of the tale, some would say that there is latent distinction such as once was called the distinction between magia and goeteia. Galadriel speaks of the 'deceits of the Enemy.' Well enough, but magia could be, was, held good (per se), and goeteia bad. Neither is, in this tale, good or bad (per se), but only by motive or purpose or use. Both sides use both, but with different motives. The supremely bad motive is (for this tale, since it is specially about it) domination of other 'free' wills. The Enemy's operations are by no means all goetic deceits, but 'magic' that produces real effects in the physical world. But his magia he uses to bulldoze both people and things, and his goeteia to terrify and subjugate. Their magia the Elves and Gandalf use (sparingly): a magia, producing real results (like fire in a wet faggot) for specific beneficent purposes. Their goetic effects are entirely artistic and not intended to deceive: they never deceive Elves (but may deceive or bewilder unaware Men) since the difference is to them as clear as the difference to us between fiction, painting, and sculpture, and 'life.'

Both sides live mainly by 'ordinary' means. The Enemy, or those who have become like him, go in for 'machinery' - with destructive and evil effects - because 'magicians,' who have become chiefly concerned to use magia for their own power, would do so (do do so).
But the magia may not be easy to come by, and at any rate if you have command of abundant slave-labour or machinery (often only the same thing concealed), it may be as quick or quick enough to push mountains over, wreck forests, or build pyramids by such means. Of course another factor then comes in, a moral or pathological: the tyrant lose sight of objects, become cruel, and like smashing, hurting, and defiling as such. It would no doubt be possible to defend poor Lotho's introduction of more efficient mills; but not of Sharkey and Sandyman's use of them.

Letter #155 (draft letter to Naomi Mitchison)

I don't think you missed the most important part
The major difference it is
Neither is, in this tale, good or bad (per se), but only by motive or purpose or use. Both sides use both, but with different motives-
and

The basic motive for magia is immediacy---reduction also to a minimum (or vanishing point) of the gap between the idea or desire and the result or effect.

And then there is the contradiction on se because:
a magia, producing real results --- for specific beneficent purposes.

But who decide what is beneficent ?
"Own power" doesn't mean automatically evil... it is more dangerous when people believe they yet know what is beneficent for others...
So magia it is obtain in the most effective way a desired result... And it has to do with time.
I f i wish fruits i can force the tree results with some kind of magic fertilizer , hormones and my aim could be a very beneficial for others too (there is hungry people).
For other fruit eaters not for the tree !
And this fruit shall loose some natural magic force that is its "consonance" ,Harmony with the Whole.
But the real consonance with eternity with the whole is to do nothing !
The first magic was cast with the command word "EA"and it caused clash between forces,but it has inside the Will of Iluvatar that is Light, Good.,Love..
Every time one tries to do something one could to do with his personal,individual, exclusive way the will of Iluvatar.
The bigger the purpose the bigger the magic to made it effective. But Good and Evil are very dangerous labels.

The magic knowledge to did the 3 elven rings it is the same that did the One.
To preserve is a way to rule.
The little prince put the rose,"its "rose under a crystal bell to preserve it from winds and worms, but she asked to take off it because she shall die without rain...
But sparingly, for a short term it was a right magic.
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Mirror of Galadriel and Palantirs.
You don't know what they show you.
It is all true, in the field of possibility.
But you have a strong Faith and Hope and Mission to look at it.
Denethor(no hope) and Saruman (no Faith) have seen that all the tentative to block Sauron militar forces shall be vain.
So to ally with him to try to preserve (Order (other 2 term than now i not remember) the new world or fall in desperation it is a "True" vision.
To hurry up to help Home is the right decision for Sam Gamgee if he not see all the context.
Revelation is always a shock to whom we seldom are ready!
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The 7 rings worked very alike the 3. It shorten the the idea or desire and the result or effect. But for a man preserve himself means become a wraith. And to exercise power means be subject to a Real power.
The One (ring)is the imperfect image of the One (Eru)...
How a man could imagine Absolute Power without surrender to him ? So he needs
a surrogate, an Idol. And that works.
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The wizard staff
A symbol of the forces that they mastered in themselves:but a material symbol so them could use that kind of energies) believe that they had 5 different stones on them)
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There were not just the 20 rings,but many lesser rings.
Gandalf believed Bilbo ring for a minor one . These could give invisibility so them always worked with Light...