[Hookbill the Goomba]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Nice work with the maps indeed, Hookbill! If I'm allowed to nitpick just an tiny bit - are the Silmarillion and LotR maps actually to the same scale?

The best I felt I could do was resize the M-E Map so that the mountains of Ered Luin were roughly the same size. The scale wasn't that important to me as I just wanted some form of visual representation for what I thought was supposed to have happened based on C-T's explanation.
But I love maps and map drawing anyway...

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

(Btw, is it just me, or does the big lake in the middle of Enedwaith look suspiciously like the Sea of Nurnen rotated 90 degrees?)

*shifty eyes* ... Maybe... *runs away*

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

After all, the Valar, as I see them, were essentially demiurgic beings - which is to say, their chief work was during the creation and the early ages of the work, shaping and preparing the habitation for the Children; and of course, while one of their order was messing with the project, the rest were needed to counteract him.

That's a nice summery.
I have noticed that several mythologies seem to work in this way; in the early stages the gods are at the forefront of the story, and as it goes on, human characters become more and more important.
Take the Bible, for example. You have the creation song at the beginning and lots of divine intervention. After that the focus shifts to the human characters with YHVH's interventions becoming less frequent or emphasised. Human agents are installed to speak for the divine at best towards the end of the OT.
The same can be said of Sumerian and even Egyptian mythologies. The tales of human heroes become more popular as time goes on, so perhaps it's a common convention Tolkien wished to mirror. Another interesting thing to note is that after creating, many gods take up destruction as an alternate pass time, sometimes leading to floods, epic battles, Numenor and Ragnorok.

Thanks for those links, Rumil!

I'd seen the EoA one before but didn't think it looked too good and when I used it to try and explain the process to someone, they got more confused. So, that's partly why I made my own version for personal satisfaction.

Originally Posted by Rumil

After a bit more of a stare, maybe your Beleriand needs to shrink a bit?

As I said, I was using the mountains as a scale. But now that you mention it, it does look a tad too small. Blast. But, as I said, it's for illustrative purposes mainly.

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

And there's perhaps the most crucial intervention, Bilbo's finding the ring
(although it's unclear who's the agent, the valar or Eru).

Was the eagles saving Thorin and Co. another example?

This is something I wanted to touch on. Events such as the finding of the Ring, the Eagles arriving at the right time and the wind changing in a battle appear to be, at best, nudges in the right direction. Far from the blazing hosts of the Valar, Ulmo rising from the depths in might and so on, the Valar seem to take something of a back seat, prodding and poking at history from time to time.
The main point being, as they get physically further away, their influences become less physical. And when they do interact physically, it causes destruction rather than creation, you could argue. The War of Wroth, The Akalabeth and, perhaps, the battle of the end of the world.
Maybe it is partly because Sauron maintains his connection to M-E that he is able to affect it so palpably?

JeffF, what you say sounds familiar, but I had a look through HoME and couldn't find it. Hmm. I'll have a closer look later on. Tired now.