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Old 01-23-2009, 10:25 AM   #30
Gordis
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
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Legate, I still own you a reply to your post.

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Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post
And still, it was so that it could have been Sauron's turn now to "pretend", i.e. he could make Saruman think that he doesn't know about his treachery, which could have helped him, too. The Uruk-hai and the Palantír solved it for Sauron: it is funny, now thinking of it, that Saruman most likely had no contact with Sauron since the Nazgul came to Isengard; and their servants last contacted under captains Uglúk and Grishnákh.
Yes, but likely the Nazgul who was sent to Isengard after the incident of Dol Baran demanded and obtained some explanations. I am not sure Sauron was satisfied though: he left Saruman in peace for a time, but at some point he did promise Isengard to The Mouth of Sauron.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post
However, another thing is, that he says these "Lord" things and "I know what you seek" only in version A, where the Nazgul are coming already with a bit of hostile attitude and Sauron at least no longer trusts (or rather "trusts" - maybe I should say: tolerates) Saruman as much.
I think in both cases the nazgul came in low spirits and already angry, as they had just got a reprimand from Sauron.
Unfortunately, only the version A is given in full. In B the talk is much the same, Christopher says, in C it is altered - the first part is not reported word for word, but Saruman in fear admits he has Gandalf within. Then he makes the nazgul wait till he climbs the Tower, sees G. gone, decends to the Gate, and
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he lied, saying that he had made Gandalf confess.[...]"I will report this myself to the Lord of Barad-dûr," he said loftily, "to whom I speak from afar on great matters that concern us. But all that you need to know on the mission that he has given you is where 'the Shire' lies. Tim says Mithrandir, is northwest from here some six hundred miles, on the borders of the seaward Elvish country. [...] You must cross Isen by the Fords, and then rounding the Mountains' end make for Tharbad upon Greyflood. Go with speed, and I will report to your Master that you have done so." version C
That is much better than in A, no doubt. No slips of the tongue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post
Yes, indeed, and at least in the UT it seems that he didn't use the Palantír for a long time, or at least not since he imprisoned Gandalf. On the other hand, in the version A at least it says that Sauron learned that Saruman imprisoned Gandalf; now I would like to know, how, since nobody else knew? (No Radagast, not even Elrond or Galadriel.)
Spies, I think - most likely among the uruks (or maybe Dunlendings). Saruman's uruks ultimately came from Mordor, so it was easy to plant a couple spies among them. Sauron had spies in Minas Tirith it seems - that's how he learned of the dream Faramir and Boromir had. Sauron had informers even in Shagrat's band:
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`Sh, Gorbag!' Shagrat's voice was lowered. 'The [Top Ones ] got eyes and ears everywhere; some among my lot, as like as not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post
In any case, this moment never ceased to interest me - it may be possibly the moment I love the most in all books. Or certainly one of these most affecting me.
I share your love for "the Hunt" and other Unfinished Tales. Such a shame "the Hunt" manuscripts are not published in full! I think, I like it so much because it is written much more realistically than the main narrative of LOTR. Here we learn of the motivations behind the actions of the good and the bad characters, of spies and traitors, of doubts and some unsavory decisions of the Wise.
The scenes with the nazgul before the Gates of Isengard and the questioning of Grima are very compelling and powerful. Pity we see no interaction between bad guys in LOTR (except between orcs, like the talk between Gorbag and Shagrat which I love as well).

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Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post
And the prophecy itself didn't even say much about what is going to happen with the Ring. So, if Saruman believed it, okay, let's say he would accept he cannot change what had been ordained... which is... what? That the doom is near? Right, doom of what? The doom of Middle-Earth is certainly at hand, as now everybody's chasing after the Ring and the coming weeks or months will show everything. And that "the Halfling forth shall stand"? Yes, indeed: it already happened, just as Saruman learned - the Halflings had the Ring all the time! So, really, not much new, besides the fact that seemingly Isildur's heir shall return. But that still does not have to mean victory for the West.
The most interesting line, IMO, was "There [in Imladris] shall be shown a token that Doom is near at hand." The token was likely the Ring, because the next line speaks about "Isildur's bane". Thus the Ring was ordained to come to Rivendell.
If Saruman believed the prophecy, he would know it was useless to try to prevent it. Sauron also knew this prophecy, but tried to stop the Ring nonetheless.
But the prophecy speaks not of further events. After Imladris, Saruman's hands were free - and he acted.
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