[Beanamir of Gondor]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I do not fail to see the irony here. Yet there are differences too. Thingol did not go to Manwe's throne on Taniquetil to proclaim that no power in the world could keep him from the treasure he desired.

Haha. Point taken. Though I would quibble that Thingol would have declared it before Yavanna. I'm totally fascinated with Melian and Thingol's inequality on the terms of gender role-reversal:

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

I do not think that it makes his leadership any less, but I do think that it makes him less great if he solely relies upon the power of others to protect his kingdom. What great deeds has Thingol ever done on the battlefield to earn the rank as a great king (and I truly am asking that as a question not as a rhetorical question)? If a king does not fight, especially in those days, for his people what right does he have to lead them?

I would personally never argue that Thingol was a poor king because he didn't physically fight for his people: but I agree that Tolkien places emphasis on heroism based on battle. Finrod, who died defending Beren from Sauron, was described as the "fairest and most beloved of the children of Finwe," because he went out of his way to aid a near-hopeless quest. Fingolfin, who fought Morgoth in single combat, was the "most proud and valiant of the Elven-kings of old," and not just the Noldor.

The point about Thingol is that he's not heroic, not by any standard. He was wise, proud, protective of his people, ostensibly well-intentioned, and thoughtful, but not heroic. His death, unlike that of most of the Elven-kings, makes no mention of his greatness: only that he was the last living Elf in Middlearth to have seen the light of the Trees. I hate to marginalize Thingol as a symbol, but... he does a much better job representing the dying ideals of the perfect Middlearth than a progressive movement towards unity between the races of Elves, Men, and Dwarves.