Thread: Dol Guldur
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Old 02-14-2008, 11:23 AM   #34
Gordis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post
Envy? Definitely. Admiration? Never. Saruman envied Sauron his skills, but I think he did not admire him for that. And surely he chose matters of less overall importance, though seeming important, to impress Sauron.
I am not an expert on psychology, but I would say it is one thing to envy a person and maybe try to harm him because of that envy and another thing is to envy someone and try to emulate him in all things - big and small. That (to me) speaks of admiration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post
And after all, telling Sauron "look, we are all Maiar and came from the West" would not be much of a help to Sauron anyway. What use this information has? None. And I also believe that the Istari did not think consciously anymore about that they were Maiar - and about the West, cf. the quote I cited above.
Not that, but something like: “I am your old pal Curumo, don’t you remember me? I have always been in awe of your skills with metal and gems and the old Gaffer Aule has never been the same since you left, lamenting the loss of his best pupil. But now I see you have chosen the right path. Middle Earth needs order.”
And the quote you have provided doesn’t tell that the incarnate Maiar had lost all memory of their former lives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post
[Sauron] was quite afraid of all the Wise, and of all the Elf-lords. The most of Galadriel (and I believe if there was a person he was afraid of the most in M-E, except maybe for Isildur's heir, if he was found, it would be her), but I believe he won't like Elrond running around his fortress as well.
What you say, I think, contradicts the Letter 246
Quote:
In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold [the Ring] from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn. […] Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power.
Sure, in 2063 Sauron was not as powerful as in 3019, but still the grade of “scariness” of the Wise would not be changed: with Gandalf (and probably Saruman before his downfall) at the top, Elrond and Galadriel below and “Mortals” at the end of the list..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post
Meeting a Maia is not the same as meeting a bull, you don't recognize him every other time because he has horns, and even then you could mistake him for a buffalo. WK would, I believe, recognize a Sauron if he met one - that is, he could recognize Annatar. But a) the Istari were all incarnate, so something completely different, and b) as I said, it's individual. He would say "this is a powerful entity", but not "this is a maia". Do you think WK would say "this is a maia" if he met Balrog? Hardly. He'd say "a demon of the ancient world", meaning nothing more and nothing less. The same, with Gandalf, "this is a Wizard", something like Saruman, but nothing more, nothing less. And Sauron for him is Sauron.
I am not sure your analysis is correct re: the Witch-King. As for mistaking a bull for a buffalo, here the Witch-King would be as prone to mistakes as any other Man, maybe more - owing to his poor sight in daylight. That would have been the case with the Wizards as well, if the WK had only to rely on his sight in the World of Light.
But a hobbit or an ordinary man would probably mistake Glorfindel for Legolas (supposing the latter were blond as well). The WK would never make such a mistake, as Glorfindel shines in the Spirit world, while Legolas doesn’t.

Do you know how Maiar look in the Spirit World? I don’t. Logically they should have some presence there, no less than Calaquendi Elves (for have they not seen the Light of the Trees as well?). Thus it may well be that the Calaquendi Elves glow, for instance, orange, while Maiar have pure white glow. And, if that is the case, then the WK would be able to tell that the wizards and the Barlog have a glow unsettlingly similar to that of Sauron. Thus the three are of the same kind – Maiar.
And yea, the Witch-King being an educated High Numenorean in life, and a close associate of Sauron in wraithdom, most likely knew full well that Barlogs were Maiar in Melkor’s service. To whom do you think Sauron told his First Age tales while in his cups?

Last edited by Gordis; 02-14-2008 at 11:47 AM.
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