[Nukapei]

Originally Posted by Adel

Wowie, interesting topic here! But as for me, I must personally say that I do not think that Celebrian was raped. For several reasons actually. Tolkien mentioned in his writings that an elf who was raped would immediately leave their bodies and go to the Halls of Mandos...and quite frankly, seeing as Celebrian stuck around after she was captured for another year, I don't think that that is a clear indication that something like that happened to her . . . And upon the detail that she might have been able to survive a little longer because she was raped by an ORC and not an ELF...come on. Do you REALLY think it would be any easier on her to be raped by an Orc? Rape is rape. The deed can be done the same way by an Orc as with an elf. So if Celebrian was really raped by an Orc, she would still die. Her body and spirit has still been defiled, no matter who or what it was defiled by.

Not necessarily. Notice the exact wording:

"Among all these evils there is no record of any among the Elves that took another's spouse by force; for this was wholly against their nature, and one so forced would have rejected bodily life and passed to Mandos. Guile or trickery in this matter was scarcely possible…for the Eldar can read at once in the eyes and voice of another whether they be wed or unwed." (JRRT, Morgoth's Ring, Laws & Customs of the Eldar, footnote 5)

This quote directly relates to inter-Elvish relationships. Period. And, while you say that it is the act that is important, not the person committing it (or, in this case, the species of that person), I am forced to disagree. The identity of the criminal can make a big difference -- think of being raped by a complete stranger, versus a good and trusted friend! The former would be horrible; the latter could leave emotional scars that affect, not only your ability to function as a human being in society, but also your ability to trust!

Perhaps the species of the rapist would affect an Elf in that violent crimes (I agree, rape in this case has absolutely nothing to do with lust and sex, and everything to do with inflicting pain) are expected by Orcs. In Tolkien's (mostly) black-and-white world, Orcs are evil monsters that will do anything they can to inflict horrible pain on others, especially their most hated nemesis, the Eldar. For a fellow Elf to do the same is an even worse betrayal -- Elves aren't supposed to be capable of such.

Originally Posted by Adel

Orcs, to me, really seem (from the point of their naturally descructive nature) like the types who would enjoy more of the wounds that they can see and hear, like blood, screams, ugly wounds, burns, deep cuts, etc. They don't seem like they would go lusting over beautiful women, since they despise elves and "ALL THINGS BEAUTIFUL". So why would they have this big sex-desire thing going on?

Being female myself, I know that I would certaily make all kinds of "satisfying" sounds in a similar situation. And what better way to inflict "wounds" on this beautiful, pure Elvish lady than defiling her, forcing on her deep emotional wounds that make her feel that her own body is a thing dirty and defiled (as rape victims often do)?

Originally Posted by Adel

And I see that we've been kind of playing around with the supposed "gap" that Tolkien left for us by using the word "torment" instead of the word "torture". So... upon seeing this I decided to look up the word in an online dictionary, and guess what the outcome was . . .The word "torment" CAME from the word "torture", and it basically means the same thing. And it is mainly phyiscal stuff, like being poked, and burned, and scratched, etc. Now if he had said the word "assault", then maybe we'd be opened up to a bit more. But it really sounds like he's talking about torture there.

. . .

P.S. I do agree with Lalaith. Elladan and Elrohir weren't necessary so horrified and angry at their mother's capture because she was raped. Think of what YOU would do if you walked into an Orcish torture den and saw someone using hot metals and rusty blades to ravage YOUR mother! I'd never see my brothers again...

I agree with you here, on both parts. The exact wording is irrelivant, as "torment" and "torture" are synonymous. And, whatever the twins saw in that Orc den was horrible enough, no matter the details.

Sorry if I've ranted and raved, and picked apart your post! I just found it so interesting, and had to comment on certain parts of it, that I found especially important.