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Old 02-14-2005, 08:37 PM   #5
Boromir88
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1420!

Wonderful posts so far ...
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He cannot think that anyone with the capability to rule & dominate others would not use that power. He can only think that Gandalf wants to replace him in Orthanc.
Interesting observation davem, and very similar to Sauron. He thinks that Aragorn has the ring and has come to challenge him, to overthrow him, because that's what HE would do. In his own pride he doesn't realize that anyone would destroy the ring, let alone TRY to destroy it.
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Gandalf stirred, and looked up. "What have you to say that you did not say at our last meeting?" he asked. "Or, perhaps, you have things to unsay?"
Saruman paused. "Unsay?" he mused, as if puzzled. "Unsay? I endeavoured to advise you for your own good, but you scarcely listened. You are proud and do not love advice, having indeed a store of your own wisdom. But on that occasion you erred, I think, misconstruing my intentions wilfully. I fear that in my eagerness to persuade you, I lost patience. And indeed I regret it. For I bore you know ill-will; and even now I bear none, though you return to me in the company of the violent and the ignorant. How should I? Are we not both members of a high and ancient order, most excellent in Middle-earth? Our friendship would profit us both alike. Much we could still accomplish together, to heald the disorders of the world. Let us understand one another, and dismiss from thought these lesser folk! Let them wait on our decisions! For the common good I am willing to redress the past, and to receive you. Will you not consult with me? Will you not come up?
Saruman is given an oppurtunity to "unsay" what he said with Gandalf the last time they met. However, Saruman doesn't do this, he sort of beats around the bush saying "maybe I came off wrong, and I regret that, this is what I meant..." but it just goes back to not "unsaying," but "resaying."

After all this, again Theoden doubts Gandalf. It was before in Helm's Deep when Theoden said something like..."If I knew then what I do now, maybe I wouldn't have listened to Gandalf." Now Theoden thinks Gandalf is going to go up their and talk with Saruman, and make an alliance with him....
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Even in the mind of Theoden the thought took shape, like a shadow of doubt: "He will betray us; he will go - we shall be lost."
A wonderful simile, and we get a different effect of Saruman's powerful voice. It's not the motivational pep-talker, not the "join me," not the sad puppy dog eyes, instead of all this it's casting fear and doubt into Theoden (as well as everyone else). It's making them doubt Gandalf and gets them into thinking he will betray them.
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Then Gandalf laughed. The fantasy vanished like a puff of smoke.
Formendacil:
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I mean, we know that Galadriel would have preferred Gandalf as head of the Council. Elrond and Gandalf seem to be best friends. Cirdan gives Gandalf Narya. So how is that Saruman is the head of the council?
I wondered about that too, and wonder if Saruman sweet talked his way into the position. But who knows? In his earlier days he was definitely kind, and worthy of such a position, he just turned down the wrong path.

Some other things I noticed, is Gandalf does warn about Saruman's voice, and we do see it have an effect (on the soldiers) but it seems that he's lost some of his potency.
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"If we speak of poisoned tongues what shall we say of yours, young serpent?" said Saruman, and the flash of his anger was now plain to see. "But come, Eomer, Eomund's son!" he went on in his soft voice again...
(emphasis mine)
Then Theoden...
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"A lesser son of great sires am I, but I do not need to lick your fingers. Turn elsewhither. But I fear your voice has lost its charm."
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The Riders gazed up at Theoden like men startled out of a dream. Harsh as an old raven's their master's voice sounded in their ears after the music of Saruman. But Saruman for a while was beside himself with wrath. He leaned over the rail as if he would smite the King with his staff. To some suddenly it seemed that they saw a snake coiling itself to strike.
Then we have the famous "Gibbets and Crows..."

Edit: I meant to answer one of the questions proposed by Estelyn, but I just plump forgot...
What would Saruman be able to contribute? Well if he was fully redeemed and he was never going to turn back down the path of evil, and Gandalf could trust him, I would say a lot. Afterall he and Galadriel threw Sauron out of Dol Guldur, grant it he might have grown in power since, but still. On a lighter note, that Voice might come in handy when facing an overwhelming horde of orcs.

Last edited by Boromir88; 02-14-2005 at 08:45 PM.
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