New Tolkien coming! - Page 2 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

William Cloud Hicklin · 08-12-2022, 05:19 AM

Quote:

"9 [6>]8 [F>]��". The MS have two lines, one seems to be "8 7 S" with "7 S" removed, another seems to be "9 7 S" with "7 S" changed to "8 ��". So I think Tolkien's intention might be "[8 7 S>]9 8 ��".

The left-hand column, of "modern" dates, was added later in pencil after the SR dates had been corrected and changed, so I think 8 and 9 are out of the conversation here. The original date entry for the Company reaching Hollin has been crossed out beyond recall; while it is a logical deduction that it said 5 S, I couldn't include suppositions.

Also, the original number changed to 8 was 6, not 7

Quote:

they go by winding ways

Yes, the closing bracket was omitted inadvertently

Quote:

p. 44. I think maybe Tolkien later rejected moving the boxed cell on Jan 18 to Jan 17

I don't believe so; Tolkien frequently ornamented things like arrows, as a natural doodler; notice that the arrow also has an elaborate tail tuft as well! When he crossed things out, he usually did so emphatically and unmistakably.

------------------------------

I must express some surprise that you have obtained reproductions of pp 2,3 and 8, since acc. to Bill Fliss only pp. 6, 9 and 10 have ever been published. Where did they come from?

zionius · 08-12-2022, 09:58 AM

Thanks for the insights! 2,3,6,8 are published in Tolkien: Voyage en Terre du Milieu (9782717728064). https://www.tolkienguide.com/modules...hibition%20Map

zionius · 08-13-2022, 04:21 AM

I note a very interesting thing: All the data of Orcs' movement from Feb.27-28 are based on the careful calculation in MSS 4/2/19/11a (image published in Voyage en Terre du Milieu). I guess other calculations in 4/2/19 finally entered the Schemes too.

S3 says: [Feb 27] At 8 a.m. the Isengarders are 36 miles out on plain: seen by Legolas. By nightfall Orcs are going faster are 72 miles on way. They reach S. end of Downs at 9 p.m. [Feb 28] Isengarders pass N. end of Downs at 4:30 a.m; rest at a point 5 miles beyond. At 5 a.m they go on till 10 a.m (seen by Riders), and are then 25 miles N. of downs, and turn towards eaves of Fangorn (25 m. further on). Rest till 10:30 a.m.

MSS 4/2/19/11a says:
[Feb 26] go on at 4mph
7-8[am] 36 miles [here wrote something that could be "seen by Legolas" but doesn't look like so]
8-midday 52[miles]
rest 1/2 hour
12:30-5:30pm 72 miles (Sun down)
rest 1/2 hour
6-11pm 92 miles reach S. end of Downs about 9pm
rest 1/2 hour
11:30-4:30am([Feb]27) 112[mil]
Now clear of Downs, and 5 miles begin rest 1/2 hour till 5am
5am-10am 132 miles
22 N. of Downs

William Cloud Hicklin · 08-13-2022, 06:03 PM

Folder 19 is a fascinating miscellany, into which (presumably) Christopher put everything related to distance or measurement which didn't seem to fit with anything else. It includes inter alia "Hobbit long measures," and a remarkably large number of nots on ent-strides and how fast ents could travel

zionius · 08-13-2022, 11:58 PM

Yes, this is one of the most interesting folders for me. “Hobbit Long Measures” and “ent-stride” are published in Maker and Reader's Companion.

William Cloud Hicklin · 08-19-2022, 01:08 PM

I will be hosting a Reddit "Ask Me Anything" about the Chronology on the subreddit /r/tolkienfans next Wednesday, August 24, between 12 noon and 2 p.m. EDT (UTC-4).

Any questions you have about Tolkien's LR timeline, or more generally about his writings- please, bring it on!

zionius · 08-27-2022, 03:51 AM

Mr. Hicklin, I have compared the pictures in JRRT: The Art of the Manuscript, and suggest the following errata entries for your consideration:

p50 their camp on the bank. > their camp on bank. Sauron will not permit > Sauron will not yet permit
p75 Missing the new moon sign Ͻ in "21 W." cell. The 3 ditto marks should be right double quotation marks, intead of left ones.
p82 As you suggested, Tolkien added an emtpy entry "Ͻ 17"[July] above "18" to remind himself of moon phase. I believe he didn't changed "18" to "17". Tolkien did the same thing on the next page, where he didn't cross out the rejected "Ͻ 17"[August], but moved it to a new place to fit the modified timeline. So p82 should have two emtpy entries "Ͻ 17"[July] "Ͻ 17"[August], and "17 21" should have "17" crossed out.
p82 It seems "19 Legolas visits the Caves of Aglarond." is modified from "18" after Tolkien changed Aug. 14 to Aug. 18.
p84 while Gandalf and Celeborn and Galadriel hold converse and council. > while Gandalf [Inserted: Elrond] Celeborn and Galadriel hold converse and council.
N. and W. > [deleted: N. and W.]
p86 They reach Bree on evening of 28. > They reach Bree on evening of 28. (95 miles)
Missing full moon sign before Oct 30.
Nov 2 and 3 are revised from 1 and 2, respectively.

Bêthberry · 10-20-2022, 07:29 PM

Sneak peak of cover can be found here:

https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Tolk..._19_Supplement

William Cloud Hicklin · 10-20-2022, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Sneak peak of cover can be found here:

https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Tolk..._19_Supplement

Thanks- but it isn't just a sneak peek, copies are now shipping.

Bêthberry · 10-21-2022, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Thanks- but it isn't just a sneak peek, copies are now shipping.

Michael Drout posted a photo on FB yesterday, but I no longer have the photobucket account to let me post it here so I used the TG link. Drout didn't say they were shipping, just that the regular vol 19 was about to go to the printer. It's a very nice cover!

William Cloud Hicklin · 10-21-2022, 12:28 PM

It's one of Tolkien's cooler diagrams (even if he later rejected the whole idea)

08-13-2022, 04:21 AM	#43
zionius Pile O'Bones Join Date: May 2021 Posts: 12	I note a very interesting thing: All the data of Orcs' movement from Feb.27-28 are based on the careful calculation in MSS 4/2/19/11a (image published in Voyage en Terre du Milieu). I guess other calculations in 4/2/19 finally entered the Schemes too. S3 says: [Feb 27] At 8 a.m. the Isengarders are 36 miles out on plain: seen by Legolas. By nightfall Orcs are going faster are 72 miles on way. They reach S. end of Downs at 9 p.m. [Feb 28] Isengarders pass N. end of Downs at 4:30 a.m; rest at a point 5 miles beyond. At 5 a.m they go on till 10 a.m (seen by Riders), and are then 25 miles N. of downs, and turn towards eaves of Fangorn (25 m. further on). Rest till 10:30 a.m. MSS 4/2/19/11a says: [Feb 26] go on at 4mph 7-8[am] 36 miles [here wrote something that could be "seen by Legolas" but doesn't look like so] 8-midday 52[miles] rest 1/2 hour 12:30-5:30pm 72 miles (Sun down) rest 1/2 hour 6-11pm 92 miles reach S. end of Downs about 9pm rest 1/2 hour 11:30-4:30am([Feb]27) 112[mil] Now clear of Downs, and 5 miles begin rest 1/2 hour till 5am 5am-10am 132 miles 22 N. of Downs Last edited by zionius; 08-13-2022 at 08:53 AM.

08-13-2022, 06:03 PM	#44
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,240	Folder 19 is a fascinating miscellany, into which (presumably) Christopher put everything related to distance or measurement which didn't seem to fit with anything else. It includes inter alia "Hobbit long measures," and a remarkably large number of nots on ent-strides and how fast ents could travel __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

08-27-2022, 03:51 AM	#47
zionius Pile O'Bones Join Date: May 2021 Posts: 12	Mr. Hicklin, I have compared the pictures in JRRT: The Art of the Manuscript, and suggest the following errata entries for your consideration: p50 their camp on the bank. > their camp on bank. Sauron will not permit > Sauron will not yet permit p75 Missing the new moon sign Ͻ in "21 W." cell. The 3 ditto marks should be right double quotation marks, intead of left ones. p82 As you suggested, Tolkien added an emtpy entry "Ͻ 17"[July] above "18" to remind himself of moon phase. I believe he didn't changed "18" to "17". Tolkien did the same thing on the next page, where he didn't cross out the rejected "Ͻ 17"[August], but moved it to a new place to fit the modified timeline. So p82 should have two emtpy entries "Ͻ 17"[July] "Ͻ 17"[August], and "17 21" should have "17" crossed out. p82 It seems "19 Legolas visits the Caves of Aglarond." is modified from "18" after Tolkien changed Aug. 14 to Aug. 18. p84 while Gandalf and Celeborn and Galadriel hold converse and council. > while Gandalf [Inserted: Elrond] Celeborn and Galadriel hold converse and council. N. and W. > [deleted: N. and W.] p86 They reach Bree on evening of 28. > They reach Bree on evening of 28. (95 miles) Missing full moon sign before Oct 30. Nov 2 and 3 are revised from 1 and 2, respectively. Last edited by zionius; 08-27-2022 at 03:54 AM.

10-20-2022, 07:29 PM	#48
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,132	Sneak peak of cover can be found here: https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Tolk..._19_Supplement __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

10-21-2022, 12:28 PM	#51
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,240	It's one of Tolkien's cooler diagrams (even if he later rejected the whole idea) __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

08-12-2022, 09:58 AM	#42
zionius Pile O'Bones Join Date: May 2021 Posts: 12	Thanks for the insights! 2,3,6,8 are published in Tolkien: Voyage en Terre du Milieu (9782717728064). https://www.tolkienguide.com/modules...hibition%20Map

08-13-2022, 11:58 PM	#45
zionius Pile O'Bones Join Date: May 2021 Posts: 12	Yes, this is one of the most interesting folders for me. “Hobbit Long Measures” and “ent-stride” are published in Maker and Reader's Companion.

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