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08-28-2017, 03:24 PM | #1 | ||||
King's Writer
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2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees
This is the first draft of the chapter 2 Of Valinor and the two Trees.
Our basis text is that of Later Quenta Silamrillion given in HoME 10; page 152-156. Were ever the text is different from that including the changes introduced in the second phase (LQ2) this is marked by an editing mark. The markings are: VT-LQ-xx for Valinor and the two Trees and changes that Tolkien introduced himself, in the second phase of the work on the Later Quenta Silamrillion. I will not comment on these. They are only marked to make the construction of the text visible. VT-EX-xx for Valinor and the two Trees, Expansions Some conventions of my writing: Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned) Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks {example} = text that should be deleted [example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes <source example> = additions with source information example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason /example/ = outline expansion Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next. Quote:
VT-LQ-01: We have to eliminate the footnote due to the fact that Ælfwine is out of our version. VT-EX-02 and VT-EX-03: Here I found a first snippet from LT that seemed to me worth considering. The choosing of the place for Valinor is given more space and a direct speech that was lost from the later versions. VT-EX-04: This is explaining with the text from LT what LQ said only one half-sentence. VT-EX-05: This is a long insert reaching until VT-EX-14. It is the description of the homes of the Valar from LT. Later in Tolkiens writing we never got such an detailed look into Valinor again. VT-EX-06, VT-EX-08, VT-EX-10, VT-EX-11, VT-EX-14: In LT the Trees were already in being when the mansions of the Vala where build, but in the later chronology that was different. Therefore these changes. VT-EX-07: I don’t think that Yavanna is any longer ‘the mother of all magic’. VT-EX-09: ‘magic’ was later avoided by Tolkien in the descriptions of the works of the Valar. VT-EX-12: In the Valaquenta we are told that Oromë trained his host in Valinor, for me that can only mean that they hunted in the woods. VT-EX-13: Here I removed not only the reference to the Trees. I could not find any editing worth the information in which the sparse use of the light would be kept. VT-EX-15: Here I replaced the bar § from LQ by a much fuller account from AAm. VT-EX-16, VT-EX-23, VT-EX-24 and VT-EX-25, VT-EX-26: The description of the Trees in LT is more detailed and transports much more of the beauty of these wonders of the Elder Days. VT-EX-17, VT-EX-18, VT-EX-19, VT-EX-20, VT-EX-21, VT-EX-22: In LT the golden Tree was the older one. But that was later changed. These changes are to adapt the text to the alter chronology. VT-EX-27: A passage from AAm that is missing in LQ. VT-EX-28, VT-EX-29: The detail from LT who had given the first names to trees should not be lost. VT-EX-30: This is Yavannas instructing for the watering of the trees. I think it is later never mentioned, but it seem still valid for me, because of the ‘the Wells of Varda’ that Ungoliant drank and the fact that the trees could have been restored to life had there been some of their light left in Valinor. VT-EX-31: This is an editorial bridge to get the insert about Silindrin working. VT-LQ-04: I think this commentary in the footnote has to go. VT-EX-32: Since we have Kulullin and Silindrin the Vardas Wells are not alone as hort for the light of the Trees. VT-EX-33, VT-EX-34 and VT-EX-35: These add the use and its effect of the Wells of Varda. VT-EX-36: Here we add the rest of the chapter from Ainulindalë. There is nothing corresponding to it in LQ. Respectfully Findegil |
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08-29-2017, 12:47 PM | #2 | ||||||||
Quentingolmo
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Thoughts
This draft was amazing, and I love the inclusion of the BoLT material! I always wished we got more of a description of Valinor, and when I read the Lost Tales I was thrilled, so its nice to see them back.
VT-EX-03: in this paragraph there is (perhaps) a minor contradiction. In this paragraph we have the phrase: Quote:
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VE-EX-05: In the paragraph after this it describes Ilmarin and its great, but I have a linguistic note. Quote:
VE-EX-11.2: This is not related to the times of the creatin of the trees, but I was not sure how else to label it. In the paragrph describing the house of Tulkas, it describes the lawns of Nessa thus: Quote:
VE-EX-11.3: The very next paragraph is thus: Quote:
VE-EX-14.5: The paragraph describing Fui wife of Mandos cannot, in my opinion, be used to apply to Vaire or Nienna, as neither of them is strictly a death goddess anymore. Quote:
VT-EX-15: the sentence: "That city they named Valimar the Blessed." is redundant, since its naming and making was described earlier. VT-EX-29: The transition between Lorien's naming and the others feels jarring to me. I know you and I can clash often about stylistic changes, but I figure I'll propose mine and see what you think. Quote:
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That was all I saw. It was great! |
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08-30-2017, 03:34 PM | #3 | |
King's Writer
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VT-EX-03: You are right. I suppose we remove 'very broad'. I will name that change VT-EX-03.2.
VT-EX-05: Agreed: Quote:
VT-EX-11.3: Omar and Salmar: I wagly remember a discussion about this pair. With the result that I kept Salmar and removed Omar. In chapter 4 I simply forgot about it. But probably I have to look up the old discussion. VE-EX-14.5: Agreed. We have to look for a solution. I like your idea to change the desscription of the jugdement of Men to Mandos. VT-EX-15: Agreed. I will name that change VT-EX-15.3. VT-EX-29: Agreed. VT-EX-36: Agreed. I will name that change VT-EX-37. Respectfully Findegil |
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08-30-2017, 06:11 PM | #4 | |
Quentingolmo
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VT-EX-14.5: Here is my suggestion:
Quote:
Last edited by ArcusCalion; 08-30-2017 at 06:21 PM. |
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08-31-2017, 01:18 PM | #5 | ||
King's Writer
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What do we know about Nienna and Vairë? See here descriptions in the Valaquenta:
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So what do I make out of it: The Hall Fui is very unlikely a place ‘loved’ by Vairë. If the work of Míriel is taken as an example the House of Vairë is by no means dark form the inside. It must then be rather colourful. For Nienna on the other hand in here mourning and in teaching ‘pity, and endurance in hope’ the Hall Fui to which the dead Men are summoned and where they wait for a time before going to the fate Men, seems a very fitting place. Especially since the fate of Men had to be accepted in a way with ‘Estel’ only not with ‘Amdir’, that is with belief in the good will of Eru rather than with hope build on experience. That said, I propose the following changes:[quote] So fair were these abodes VT-EX-14 {and so great the brilliance of the trees of Valinor} that {Vefantur}[Namo] and VT-EX-14.2{Fui}[Nienna] his {wife}[sister] of tears might not endure to stay there long, but fared away far to the north-ward of those regions, where beneath the roots of the most cold and northerly of the Mountains of Valinor, that rise here again almost to their height nigh Arvalin, they begged Aulë to delve them a hall. Wherefore, that all the {Gods}[Valar] might be housed to their liking, he did so, and they and all their shadowy folk aided him. Very vast were those caverns that they made stretching even down under the Shadowy Seas, and they are full of gloom and filled with echoes, and all that deep abode is known to {Gods}[Valar] and Elves as Mandos. There in a sable hall sat {Vefantur}[Namo], and he called that hall {with his own name }Vê. It was lit only with a single vessel placed in the centre, wherein there lay some gleaming drops of the pale dew of {Silpion}[silver light]: it was draped with dark vapours and its floors and columns were of jet. Thither in after days fared the Elves of all the clans who were by illhap slain with weapons or did die of grief for those that were slain - and only so might the Eldar die, and then it was only for a while. There Mandos spake their doom, and there they waited in the darkness, dreaming of their past deeds, until such time as he appointed when they might VT-EX-14.3{again }be {born into their children}[re-housed], and go forth to laugh and sing again. To Vê {Fui}[Nienna] Last edited by Findegil; 09-01-2017 at 03:20 AM. |
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08-31-2017, 08:37 PM | #6 | |
Quentingolmo
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I heartily disagree with this change for two reasons. Firstly, Nienna is said in the Valquenta to have Halls apart that are west of West upon the borders of the world. Therefore, while it says she comes to Mandos, she is not said to have a hall therein where she sits and passes judgement. Vaire, however, is said to dwell in Mandos, and is also said to have a house. These two facts would let us believe that she has halls in Mandos that are set apart for her. I do agree with you that the description of Fui does not fit her house at all in the later conception, and so cannot be assigned to her. But the fact remains that Nienna does not have a hall in Mandos, as she has already her own halls alone. She does not pass judgement on souls, but gives them comfort and consolation.
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As you say, the description of her halls hardly fits the idea of them presented in the Statute and so perhaps it would be best to append the bit about the judgement of Men to the Namo paragraph, and leave the Fui paragraph out entirely. |
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09-01-2017, 02:56 PM | #7 | |
King's Writer
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Okay, the idea behind my editing was the following: My addition of ‘in Mandos’ was meant as a statement that the hall Fui is not here ‘home’. But as your reaction makes clear this is not enough.
Nonetheless a few things I have to remark about your arguments: - ‘reads their hearts‘ is by no means equivalent with passing judgement. The description of Vefanturs actions is clear. He does pass judgement. But Fui does only read in their hearts, which can as well have the intention to help them were specifically in the process of purging (since that seems to be the function of Mandos for Men and Elves: a kind of Purgatory). - I didn’t say that the hall Fui would not fit the later Nienna. I said it would not fit Vaire! And that might have been true already in LT. But however I agree that it is more save to shift both halls or at least both thrones to Namo: Quote:
Findegil |
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09-02-2017, 08:34 AM | #8 |
Quentingolmo
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This is perfect, thank you
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09-23-2017, 04:38 PM | #9 | |
King's Writer
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We should more often look into Myths Transformed! I propose we take up these changes:
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Respectfully Findegil |
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09-24-2017, 09:09 PM | #10 |
Quentingolmo
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I agree about the name change for Arien. In the second addition, it says that orome and Yavanna came "secretly" but Orome is explicitly said to come blowing his horn and driving all evil things away before him, not secretly.
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09-25-2017, 07:14 PM | #11 | ||
Wight
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I agree with Arcus that this chapter is really good. The description of the tress is some beautiful writing. I also think skipping the chapters in VT-EX-01 makes sense with the revisions you made to Chapter 1. I have a few small comments/questions. It seems like you use "Kementari" for most of the text but occasionally use "Yavanna", i.e.:
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Sorry if I missed this discussion, but do you plan on keeping references to the children of the Valar? ("And the children of Manwe and Varda are Fionwe Uiron their son, and Ilmare their daughter."). The idea of Valar procreating and having children is strange to me. I think it makes more sense to make Eonwe (or Fionwe) and Ilmare Maiar. |
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09-25-2017, 07:59 PM | #12 |
Quentingolmo
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To respond to your points:
1. Kementari is used bc in the Lost Tales text, while her proper name is Yavanna, she is referred to often as Palurien, which was a title later replaced (in supremacy at least) by Kementari. (sidenote, Palurien is a valid title for Yavanna in Quenya, and I have contemplated lobbying to keep it in, but referring to one person by three different names throughout the narrative would be toooo much haha). Tolkien loves using titles to refer to someone rather than their formal name, especially when they are of extreme importance. 2. Interesting, I cannot find it either. Findegil, are we crazy? Also i agree that the second addition doesn't add any new info, and also is somewhat awkward in tone, and I do not see the need for it. 3. We are not including the children of the Valar at all, as this idea was abandoned by Tolkien. |
09-26-2017, 01:51 PM | #13 | ||
King's Writer
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Yavanna Kementári: Consistence is nice but done to utmost it will become boring. It is not uncommon in Tolkiens works that important characters have more than one name, e.g.: Melkor/Morgoth/Baugron/Alcar; Finrod Felagund; Húrin Thalion, Beleg Cúthalion, Túrin/Agawaren/Mormegil/Turambar, Mairon/Sauron/Gorthauer/Annatar/The Necromancer to name just a few that come immediately to my mind.
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VT-EX-35.7: The ‘secretly and briefly’ visits of the Valar. I agree that as it stand this would contradict Orome blowing his horn. Sincer we are talking about an outline versus more than one full story texts, I assume we should change the outline, but as minimalistic as possible. So I suppose: Quote:
About the children of the Valar: They are removed or changed to Maiar or Valar of their own right. So both roles of Nonore and Fionwe are taken up by Eonwe. As well Orome is no longer the son of Yavanna. Respectfully Findegil |
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09-26-2017, 01:54 PM | #14 |
Wight
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1. Palurien does sound really pretty to my ears, but I agree that three names is a bit too much. As long as when we first introduce her we use both names, I'm OK with using Yavanna and Kementari interchangeably.
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10-30-2017, 12:03 PM | #15 | ||
Late Istar
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Here is my new draft for chapter 2. I have kept most of Findegil's edit numbers, though in some cases where the edit has changed significantly, I've added a distinguishing letter; also, in cases where I've followed my own previous draft, I retain my edit numbers.
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above. Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks {to be deleted} = text that should be deleted [ ] = normalised text <source > = additions with source information underlined = text inserted for grammatical reason / / = outline expansion Quote:
VT-LQ-01.5: I've changed the present tense of LQ to past to match the language of AAm. Particularly in view of the addition of "ancient" in the typescript AAm*, it must be the case that this describes the world as it was then, but not after the fall of Numenor. VT-EX-03b: Here I mix LT with AAm, chiefly in order to mention the name ‘Pelóri’, and to get the detail that Manwë’s throne is atop Taniquetil. The latter point, though, may not be needed here, since Manwe’s dwelling is described in full at the end of the chapter. I also move the detail of the world rumbling in the gloom to what I feel is a more natural place. VT-EX-03.1, -03.2: I remove a historical present here, but otherwise this is almost identical to Findegil’s version. VT-EX-04.1: Here I change the “cauldrons” to “wells” and use the updated names “Cululin” and “Silindirin”. VT-EX-04.2: Here I return to AAm, since we are using putting the descriptions of the Valar’s dwellings at the end of the chapter. The change of ‘gods’ to ‘Servants of Ilúvatar’ is from the typescript AAm* VT-EX-04.3: A change from AAm*. VT-LT-03.5: Although the description of the Valar’s mansions is saved for later, this seems the best place for these details of Valimar. VT-EX-15.5: I think this footnote should be used (as a footnote) in our version. VT-LQ-03.5: This is as in Findegil’s version; I just supply an editing number here for the switch to LQ. VT-EX-16 through -23: As in Findegil’s draft. VT-EX-24: I keep Lorien’s naming of Silpion immediately after the description of Silpion’s growth. VT-EX-25: As in Findegil’s draft. VT-EX-25.5: In Findegil’s draft, the re-ordering of the growth of the Trees means that we don’t say that Telperion’s light decreases while Laurelin is growing; but Yavanna’s speech following this assumes that it has. I’ve tried to rectify this by taking the passage in LT telling that Laurelin waned as Silpion waxed, and simply changing the name of the Tree. But because “glory” seems more apt for golden Laurelin, I’ve changed it to the “sheen” of Silpion. VT-EX-26: As in Findegil’s draft. VT-EX-26.5: Due to the order of the growth of the Trees being reversed, I’ve moved Yavanna’s naming of Laurelin to before the Valar praise her work, so that they are now praising both Trees at the same time. VT-EX-27: As in Findegil’s draft. VT-EX-28: Because the Trees have both now been named, the Valar do not request names for them. VT-EX-29: This was moved to become part of VT-EX-24 VT-EX-30: I’ve moved Yavanna’s speech here to before the narrator’s explanation of the waxing and waning of the Trees. Since the narrator’s explanation is fuller and more detailed, this arrangement seems to me to alleviate the feeling of redundancy. The best solution I could come up with for the problem here with the Trees’ order being reversed was to simply flip the names of the Trees (and the wells) in Yavanna’s speech. So now that Laurelin has just bloomed, she says that in twelve hours it will wane and Silpion will bloom again. Consequently, I also changed ‘fair tree’ to ‘golden tree’, ‘tree of gold’ to ‘tree of silver’, and ‘blaze forth’ (which seems an appropriate description for Laurelin but not Telperion) to ‘shine forth’. VT-EX-30.1: In LQ and AAm, the hoarding of the light that spills from the Trees is attributed to Varda. I struggled to reconcile this with Yavanna’s speech here (which we all agreed we’d like to keep). The solution I’ve come up with may not be perfect, but I think it is reasonable: Yavanna tells the Valar that the light should be gathered, and the Trees watered from it; but then it is Varda, rather than Vána and Lóriën, who bids the Maiar do so. VT-LQ-04b, VT-EX-34: I found this bit tricky, and I’m not sure I’m happy with what I’ve come up with. The point is that we have already told about the great wells and that Varda bade the light be stored and watered there, but we still want the statement that the Maiar drew from the wells and brought the light to other places in Valinor. I could not find a placement for this that is not at least a little awkward, but I think this works decently. VT-EX-36b: Here we switch back to the Ainulindalë for the final part of the chapter. In the Ainulindalë, this section begins with ‘Thus it was that the Earth lay darkling again, save only inValinor, as the ages drew on to the hour appointed by Ilúvatar for the coming of the Firstborn.’ In the new context the ‘thus’ has lost its antecedent, so we need some editorial alteration; I therefore took Christopher Tolkien’s alteration of this sentence from QS77. VT-EX-36.5: This is the LQ footnote telling of the making of Angband, which we agreed to use here. VT-EX-37: As in Findegil’s draft. VT-LT-04: Details of Aulë’s dwelling from LT inserted after the Ainulindalë passage describing him. VT-LT-05: Details of Manwë’s dwelling inserted after telling that it is on Taniquetil VT-LT-06: In LT, the description of Lóriën’s dwelling follows the statement that Ulmo does not live in Valinor, but in the Ainulindalë, the three who gave thought to the outer lands are spoken of in sequence: Ulmo, Yavanna, Oromë; so I have separated the description of Lóriën and placed it here. I also remove the end of this section, which describes Silindrin being in Lóriën, since in our version it is near the green mound. I’m a little uncertain about whether the old word ‘fumellar’ is valid in later Quenya, but I don’t see anything obviously wrong with it. VT-LT-07: Here I put the description of Tulkas and his dwelling. VT-LT-08b: I’ve deleted the passage that refers to Makar. VT-LT-08.5: Of the minor Ainur mentioned at this point in LT, we know that Salmar still exists in the later mythology, though Amillo/Ómar and Nielqui seem to be gone. Therefore I’ve retained the statement about Salmar, but since it is now just one sentence I’ve merged it with the previous paragraph. We could, of course, keep Ómar and Nielqui. I see that there was some discussion of Omar between Findegil and ArcusCalion, but I’m not sure if a decision was reached. VT-LT-09: The passage about Ossë. It does seem a little awkward to me to include a description of Ossë’s dwelling among those of the Valar (of course, in LT Ossë was a Vala). But even though he was downgraded to become a Maia, he is still one of the more important Maiar, so I think it’s all right. VT-LT-10: There is not much from LT to add here concerning Ulmo, but the one detail that he is a guest of Manwë while in Valinor is worth including. VT-LT-11: The LT description of the forests of Valinor seems to fit here. In LT it is said that Oromë and Palurien (there his mother) planted these forests together. I debated changing this so that the forests were planted solely by Yavanna, but in the end I think it’s fine to suppose that Oromë and Yavanna worked together to plant them, even if no longer as a form of mother-son bonding. VT-LT-11.5: The description of Oromë’s halls in Valinor seems to fit best here, after telling of his riding in Middle-earth. VT-LT-12: Here I put the dwelling of Mandos and Vairë (who is now his wife instead of Nienna, and consequently not a lady ‘of tears’). I also alter the statement about Elves being reborn to match the later conception of re-embodiment. VT-LT-13: With Nienna now the sister of Mandos, it seems reasonable to put the description of her dwelling immediately after his. Last edited by Aiwendil; 10-30-2017 at 09:13 PM. |
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10-30-2017, 11:57 PM | #16 | ||
Quentingolmo
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Here are my comments for the draft proposed. Like the "Of the Beginning of Time" draft, I am very impressed at the overall improvement in flow and quality, and have some comments.
VT-EX-01b: is the addition of "ancient" really necessary? when this was written the round world numenoran cataclysm had already entered the mythos, so the ancient word was implied already. VT-LQ-01.5: I actually realize now that this contradicts the addition of the "vast regions of Ea" into the Cosmological structure with Ainulindale D and later AAm. Should this be changed from "Void and Eldest Darkness" to "Vast Spaces of Ea"? VT-EX-03.1: In this version, the "Mountains of Valinor" and just "Valinor" occur before the introduction of the name Valinor as the land of the Valar. Is this a problem? VT-LT-03.5: This is awkward. Maybe instead of changing "their" to "its" at every occurrence, just change the first "Their roofs" to "The roofs of its buildings were .." and leave the "their"s afterwards. Makes it smoother. VT-EX-30.1: Arie is said to be a Maia of Vana, so this wording cannot stay this way. Maybe Quote:
VT-LT-05: Nothing wrong with this, but in the paragraph after this addition, it says the Noldor call Varda Elbereth, but as this name is Sindarin, should tis be changed to Sindar? VT-LT-06: At the end of the paragraph, per my comment on the LQ-04b, I would add back in the description of the resting place of Silindirin. VT-LT-08b: Why remove so much of the sentence? Only the part about Makar seems unfit, the rest is pretty important. VT-LT-11.5: I would add back the description of the resting place of Culullin, see above. VT-LT-12: why remove Vê? Even if it is not his own name, there is no real reason to remove it. VT-LT-13: This last paragraph cause me and Fin a bunch of trouble, and I like the direction you took much better. However, many of my old objections still apply. Much of the Lost Tales descriptions of Nienna are entirely at odds with her later persona, and thus we need to remove or greatly edit much of this paragraph. Firstly, this: Quote:
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10-31-2017, 07:08 PM | #17 | ||||||||||||||||
Late Istar
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This also brings up the small point of her name. In my view, the 'Arie' of MT II (the name derived from earlier 'Azie', itself from the primeval name 'As' or 'Asa' of the Sun) is almost a different character replacing Arien, maiden of Vana. I am half convinced that in rejecting the new story of the Sun, we should also reject 'Arie' in favour of 'Arien'. A small point, though. Quote:
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Last edited by Aiwendil; 10-31-2017 at 07:33 PM. |
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11-01-2017, 12:51 PM | #18 |
Quentingolmo
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I guess that's everything I saw. I agree with your comments.
On a side note, I see no reason not to include Omar and Nieliqui, since they do not play large narrative roles, and their existence was never denied by Tolkien. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 11-01-2017 at 01:01 PM. |
11-01-2017, 05:39 PM | #19 | ||
King's Writer
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VT-LQ-01.5: I don’t think that this is a contradiction. Ekkaia is in the new and in the old concept like to what we would call space. And its boundary is the Walls of the World beyond which is the Void.
VT-EX-03.1: We use Valinor already in the heading of the chapter. But still I see reason to replace it here. In the first place we could used “the mountains they raised” and in the second “Aman”. VT-LT-03.5: I like ArcusCalion’s suggestion as well. VT-EX-30.1: Hmm, even so we reject the story of the new and holy light, I am not sure that we should not keep the possibility for that story open. Meaning that we will not include it, but as well should not deny it, if not necessary. Therefore I would not specify if Árië/Ariën is a maiden of Vána or Varda. What about just naming her “a maiden of the Maiar”? To the name I am open. For me it doesn’t matter. Both seem to be near variants and Ariën has for me the more feminine feel. VT-LQ-04b, VT-LT-06 & VT-LT-11.5: I am not sure that what is said about the wells – that they are near the Ezellohar – does contradict what is said about the places of Kululin and Silindrin in LT? Why should not the gardens of Lóriën and Vána stretch along to have areas near the appropriate trees in which the “wells” where places – or to put it in the real sequence: when Aulë needed light, it was for the building of Valimar, therefore the wells were placed near to the place where Valimar was build. When then the gardens of Lóriën and Vána were planted, both liked to include the appropriate well into their garden and extended the gardens accordingly. VT-EX-04.4 & VT-EX-04.5: Agreed. Following VT-LQ-05: Agreed. I think we should call that change VT-EX-38. VT-LT-08c: Agreed. VT-LT-12 & VT-LT-13: Aiwendil, if you feel not safe with “Vê”, I agree to remove it. The same is true then for “Fui” as the name of the other hall, but I would like to hold that description as I did in my draft: Quote:
I had only time to follow the discussion, and not to analyse all the changes. So their might come farther comments. Sorry for that. Respectfully Findegil |
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11-02-2017, 12:18 PM | #20 |
Quentingolmo
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VT-LQ-01.5: Ekkaia is in no way meant to be equivalent to "space." It is akin more to the ancient Greek and Indian mythological idea of the Sea that encircles the world, or the Biblical waters that were beyond the sky that God used to make the flood. In the earliest concept, there was no "space" as it was a simple flat earth with the stars and Sun and Moon being in "Ilmen" the narrow region of the atmosphere where the luminaries are said to be. However, in the new concept, Ea is introduced as true "space" beyond Arda, which is merely our world / solar system. Thus, the placement of the Walls of the World comes into question. In the old conception, their function was to separate Creation from Uncreation, and to bind the Valar and Maiar to Arda. however, with the introduction of Ea, the boundary between Creation and Uncreation is the place between Ea and the Void, and thus it seems to me that the Walls would be there. However, for this passage, the main point is that, regardless of the placement of the walls, there must be some mention of Ea and its vast spaces, as the passage as-is merely lays out the old cosmology, where it goes Vaiya(Ekkaia) -> Walls of the World -> The Void / Eldest Darkness. We must either replace the Void section with Ea, or insert and additional Ea reference. I suppose we do actually have to determine where the walls of the world are meant to be in the new conception as well.
VT-LQ-04b, VT-LT-06 & VT-LT-11.5: I agree with Fin here. The Gardens of Lorien are even said to wind "nigh to the feet of Silpion." They can thus be by Ezellohar and in the Gardens of Lorien and Vana at the same time. VT-LT-13: I agree with Fin here, I think the judgement of Men is worth including, as the description used is of the Halls of Mandos, removing Fui would allow for us to use it. |
11-02-2017, 04:58 PM | #21 | |||||||||||
King's Writer
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VT-EX-01b: Why did we skip “But the east-shores of Aman are the uttermost end of the Great Sea of the West”? Okay we have to end the sentence with a full point istaead of coneccting it to the next by a semi-colon, but is that alone enough?
VT-EX-01b & VT-LQ-01.5: - Why did we skip “But the east-shores of Aman are the uttermost end of the Great Sea of the West”? Okay we have to end the sentence with a full point istaead of coneccting it to the next by a semi-colon, but is that alone enough? - Are not “…;for its west shores looked upon the Outer Sea that encircled the kingdom of Arda, and beyond were the Walls of {the} Night. “ and “But on the further side lay the Outer Sea, which encircles the Kingdom of Arda, and is called by the Elves VT-LQ-02 {Vaiya}[Ekkaia]. How wide is that sea none know but the {gods}[Valar], and beyond it are the Walls of the World to fence out the Void and the Eldest Darkness.” redundant? - I think, that it is no question that the “Walls of the World” separate Creation from Uncreation as you put it in all cosmologies. But Eä signifies all the Creation. So it can not be said that beyond Ekkaia is Eä, because Eä includes Ekkaia and the rest of Arda (if Ekkaia can still be called a part of Arda). Howsoever we do not have to explain the cosmology, we “just” have too make the sentence in question fit to what we know for sure about the cosmology we work with. But anyhow that sentence most not be an exact listing of all things between one point and the other and that the Walls of the World were beyond Ekkaia is no question. So I think we should change all this probably in this way: Quote:
Quote:
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VT-LT-06: If we replace “Murmuran” by “Lórien” then we should replace at the beginning of the sentence “Lórien” by “Irmo”, otherwise sentence reads awkward. But why do we remove “Murmuran”? By the way: we used “Lóriën” up to now, at least for the place in Valinor and the Valar. The reinsertion of Silindirin I would do in this way: Quote:
VT-LT-11: I agree that we should not call Oromë any longer Yavanna’s son, but I think we can edit this in a lighter way: Quote:
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Respectfully Findegil |
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11-02-2017, 07:18 PM | #22 | ||
Late Istar
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Just a few thoughts for now - more will follow.
VT-LQ-01.5: The cosmology is a thorny problem. I tend to think that the project of explicitly defining the cosmology in our version (which is to say, the cosmology as envisioned in the early 1950s) is quite hopeless. It's a shame that there is no later version of the Ambarkanta; without one, I don't think we can build up a completely clear and coherent picture. In AAm, Christopher Tolkien notes the following statements with cosmological implications: Quote:
Christopher Tolkien's further discussion of the cosmology here has great bearing on our issue, especially: Quote:
All this is to say that I don't necessarily see a contradiction between the LQ's "Void and Eldest Darkness" and the cosmology of the Ainulindale and AAm. Now, whether we might want to err on the side of caution and eliminate a possible contradiction is an open question, and one on which I haven't quite decided where I stand. In any case, I do agree with Findegil that we have a redundancy here, and I also agree that we can include the part of a sentence that I skipped. So with the caveat that we may still want to think about changing "Void and Eldest Darkness", I agree with Findegil's suggestion here. VT-EX-03b: I like Findegil's proposal. VT-EX-03.1: I like using "Mountains of Aman" here. I'm just the tiniest bit uncertain about replacing the other "Valinor" here with "Aman" ("they towered mightily between Valinor and the world"), since the mountains are after all part of Aman. But this is only a slight imprecision, and maybe it doesn't matter. |
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11-02-2017, 10:52 PM | #23 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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This first paragraph by Fin looks good. I think that the walls of the world, as shown by Aiwendil, are actually enclosing Arda. Therefore, the issue lies in the confusion of the Void with the Spaces of Ea, and I think now that such a distinction is less material her than needs to be. We could change it, or eliminate it though, in an effort to formalize a cosmological system.
For your Silindirin addition Fin, "Amidmost of" should be changed to "Within." I.E. the "of" should be removed too. The "within" should also be replaced by "amid," not "amidmost." I also agree about adding in Murmuran, but then we must have a sentence that calls the Gardens Lorien. For the Nienna bit I actually decided to do it differently. Quote:
Last edited by ArcusCalion; 11-02-2017 at 10:57 PM. |
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11-03-2017, 06:06 AM | #24 |
Late Istar
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VT-EX-30.1: I suppose I'm fine with leaving Arie(n)'s allegiance unstated. I think I prefer 'Arien' over 'Arie' for the etymological reason I mentioned.
VT-LQ-04b, VT-LT-06 & VT-LT-11.5: I'm not so sure about this. It's true that we don't have any definite statement that the gardens of Lorien and Vana do not border Ezellohar. But my impression of Valinor has always been one of a much larger region than that would suggest. Still, I suppose one could quibble about what exactly 'near to Ezellohar' means. I had pictured them being within sight of Ezellohar, but perhaps 'near' could mean miles away. In any case, if we do add these descriptions back in, I think we need to eliminate the statements that the pools are disturbed only when it is time to 'water' the Trees, since AAm has the Maiar drawing from them to bring light to frith and field throughout Valinor. VT-LT-06: I had been assuming that 'Lorien' replaced 'Murmuran' as the name of Irmo's dwelling. However, 'Murmuran' seems to refer to his house, while 'Lorien' refers to his lands/gardens as a whole. So I suppose 'Murmuran' could stay unless we reject it on linguistic grounds. VT-LT-11: I think Findegil's suggestion is good. VT-LT-13: I wonder whether we're justified in taking what was Nienna's hall and giving it to Mandos as well. Logically, what should come here would be a description of Vaire's hall, since the original is describing the neighbouring dwellings of Mandos and his wife. But the description is obviously unsuited to Vaire. Nor does it make much sense to retain it for Nienna. I do seem to vaguely recall a statement somewhere in the post-LotR writings that Mandos contained separate halls for Elves and Men. Can either of you remind me where that is found? If that's indeed the case, then perhaps we do have justificiation for keeping the description of Fui's hall, even though Fui is no longer there. Nonetheless, I do still wonder whether the rather 'primitive' description of the hall, with a ceiling of bat-wings (!) is still appropriate in the context of the later Legendarium. Actually, I am still for the same reason somewhat uneasy about most of the LT additions to this chapter. Relatedly, it feels a little off to me that the vivid description of Mandos's halls here make no mention of the only two facts told of them in the Valaquenta: that they widen as the ages pass and that their walls are covered with Vaire's tapestries. Omar and Nieliqui: I see no problems with these names phonologically, nor with Omar's other name, Amillo. I do wonder, though, whether Nieliqui can still be a "little maiden" if she is no longer the daughter of Orome and Vana. VT-EX-39/VT-LT-14: I'm not sure I see a clear motivation for moving the passage from the Valaquenta to here. There are, after all, other bits of description of the Valar's dwellings in the Valaquenta, and I don't think it's a problem if the descriptions here are not comprehensive. |
11-03-2017, 01:23 PM | #25 | |||
Quentingolmo
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VT-LQ-04b, VT-LT-06 & VT-LT-11.5: We actually have a definite statement that the gardens of Lorien do border Ezellohar:
Quote:
As far as the "never disturbed" pieces, maybe we can just change them to "seldom disturbed" and "seldom spilled." VT-LT-06: I would do the Lorien bit like this: Quote:
VT-LT-13: The line you are looking for is in the chapter: "Of Men:" Quote:
VT-EX-39 / VT-LT-14: I agree with Aiwendil that we do not need to take this out of the Valaquenta. However, I would like an opinion on the edit I did to the Lost Tales paragraph by melding some wording from the Valaquenta. VT-EX-30.1: I respectfully see no reason to leave her allegiance unknown when it is stated in the source document. If we are rejecting the story of the light, we are to use AAm and LQ as the sources for this. This would put Arien in the role of Vana's servant. However, this would not preclude the Light of Varda being given to her, as she still steers the Sun. On the subject of her name, I am inclined to go to Arien myself, since it makes more linguistic sense, while Arie / Azie seems more like Tolkien trying to make a new name in the Valarin. |
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11-03-2017, 04:32 PM | #26 | ||||
Late Istar
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VT-LQ-04b, VT-LT-06 & VT-LT-11.5: Yeah, I suppose it is plausible for them to be within the gardens of Vana and Lorien and still near Ezellohar. It still feels a little - I don't know, too convenient, perhaps. But that's just a feeling, not an argument.
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VT-LT-06: Since we've already told in the Valaquenta that his right name is Irmo but that he is called Lorien after his gardens, I don't think we need to repeat it here. So I'd opt rather for: Quote:
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VT-EX-30.1: My preference would also be to keep her explicitly a Maia of Vana, but I don't feel particularly strongly about it. |
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11-03-2017, 07:10 PM | #27 | ||||
King's Writer
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VT-LQ-04b, VT-LT-06 & VT-LT-11.5: "seldom" does solve the issue for Silindirin:
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VT-LT-13: Since Beren was meet by Lúthien in Mandos, it can not be the coming of Men to Mandos that is in question but the hall (in LT named Fui). I don't see that the hall described fits the later Nienna's dwelling place. So what about this: Quote:
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Respectfully Findegil |
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11-04-2017, 11:14 AM | #28 | |
Late Istar
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VT-LT-11.7: How about:
Quote:
VT-LT-14: I can certainly agree to Nienna still distilling tears, but I'm having a hard time convincing myself about the clouds, and it seems very awkward to me to repeat a phrase directly from the Valaquenta here. I'm not sure I have a solution, though, without dropping Nienna from the descriptions here. |
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11-04-2017, 11:44 AM | #29 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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Agreed to everything so far, and Aiwendil's suggestion for the Cululin edit looks good.
VT-LT-14: I see no real issue with repeating from the Valaquenta, and I think that something must be said about her in this list, as she is one of the most important ones. As it is, the only ones who have nothing said here about their dwellings are Vaire and Este, the two least important of the Valar. Nienna is much more important, and I think to leave her out would be worse than repeating something small. I might even do more: Quote:
Last edited by ArcusCalion; 11-04-2017 at 11:48 AM. |
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11-04-2017, 12:44 PM | #30 | ||
Quentingolmo
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I actually have another point I just saw. In the mater of elvish reincarnation, this LT passage about the fate of Men is actually surprisingly applicable:
Quote:
Quote:
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11-04-2017, 05:41 PM | #31 |
King's Writer
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VT-LT-11.7: Agreed.
VT-LT-14: It seems our opinions are fare sundered. Let's sort the discussion: 1. Mentioning Nienna at this point: We all agree that it would be good to mention her, but the only thing we agreed upon so fare are the destilling of tears. 2. The clouds of grief: ArcusCalion and I find this acceptable, but Aiwendil has a problem with this. 3. The hall in LT called Fui: Aiwendil and I agree that this should in our version be a description the special hall in Mandos in which Námo gathers the fëa of Men. But ArcusCalion would like to use the description for the dwelling of Nienna. 4. Snipets of Valaquenta used here again or moved to here: Aiwendil is complete against it, ArcusCalion would repeat the passages in question, and I would move them. In the end Aiwendil's point of view is the safest and has to rule. I search the older version of the former chapter "Of the Valar": But what is in there is either not useable or virtually the same as in the Valaquenta. I have no solution ready for these points, but it might be helpful to sort them. LT passage about the fate of Men: This is for sure a no go. On the one hand I don't think the passages realy fit the rehousing of Elves, since we are told that Manwe was the one to give the Elves the new boddy and it would be a case changing the sense of Tolkiens text greatly with out changing the words over much - for sure that is not wanted. Respectfully Findegil |
11-05-2017, 11:42 AM | #32 | |
Quentingolmo
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I would say that Fui is not a requirement for me. I do not feel too strongly about dropping it. As for the description, I certainly do not want to use it for Nienna, I removed that part in my suggestion. I would say that we cannot move the Valaquenta passages without real good reason, which we do not have. I think small repetition is harmless and the best solution to the issue.
As for the Fate of Men passage you are right, I just figured I'd throw it out there. Another side note, I think the chapter should end on a more final note than the description of Nienna's hall, so perhaps we could take up this LT sentence as a way to close out the chapter: Quote:
Last edited by ArcusCalion; 11-05-2017 at 11:51 AM. |
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11-06-2017, 11:50 AM | #33 |
Wight
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I have to review quietly all the text but lets go start with a little thing.
In VT-LT-03.5, shouldn´t be deleted the allusions to spells and magic? Greetings |
11-06-2017, 12:30 PM | #34 |
Quentingolmo
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This actually brings up an issue we have not discussed with Aiwendil, and I meant to comment on, but had forgotten. Fin and I, in our editing, have been replacing the word "magic," since Tolkien expressed distaste for the word, and equated it with an evil power. In Lord of the Rings, Galadriel expresses no knowledge of what is meant by magic when Sam asks her, and so I think that we should avoid the use of the word, at least whenever it does not refer to the work of Morgoth. Spells, however, we have agreed to keep, as also enchantments, since spells are referenced in LotR by Gandalf in a positive way, and "enchantments" has a good connotation. Wherever "magic" appears, I replace it, usually with something like "power." That is what I used in the Valimar segment, but in the Aule's Hall description, I used "cunning." I cannot remember any of the others off the top of my head, but they are all fairly straightforward.
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11-06-2017, 01:33 PM | #35 | ||||
King's Writer
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A more general question: Is it “Nienna” or “Niënna” that we use? And in the same direction is it “Lórien” or “Lóriën”?
I will give VT-LT-14 another go: Quote:
Quote:
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Respectfully Findegil |
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11-06-2017, 03:11 PM | #36 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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I use Niënna and Lóriën, as I thought those were the latest versions of the names? Similarly to Ariën.
VT-LT-14: Omg this is absolutely perfect! I approve of this 100%. Aiwendil,thoughts? This OuterLands-> Lands of Middle-earth looks good, good catch! I have actually gone through it and replaced "magic" in all occurrences in my copies of the drafts. I could go through again and see what I did at each occurrence. It was not too difficult to do. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 11-06-2017 at 03:24 PM. |
11-06-2017, 05:29 PM | #37 |
Late Istar
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VT-LT-14, 15: Findegil's last suggestion works for me.
VT-LT-04: I don't think changing "Outer Lands" is necessary in this instance. Here, it refers to the lands outside Valinor, including Middle-earth. The problematic instance was one where it was used to mean the lands beyond Middle-earth, including Valinor. Magic: I don't think I'm in favour of replacing every instance of good 'magic'. The closest analogue is our elimination of 'gods', but there is a good deal more precedent for Tolkien removing that word. On the diacritics: A quick investigation seems to show that Tolkien's latest usage was to include the trema in Niënna and Lóriën. By analogy, I think we are safe using Ariën. |
11-07-2017, 12:03 PM | #38 | |
King's Writer
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Magic: When I looked up the occurrences in all our text, I could discern a clear trend that the older the basis text is the more often the word “magic” is used (the same is true for “Gods” as well). This together with the passage in LotR where Galadriel connected the word with the deceits of the enemy makes me at least cautious about a massive usage.
VT-LT-16: I like the idea of a closing sentence to the chapter, but I have some reservation about the quarrelsome spirits not dwelling among them. The reference was to Makar and Meassa. But these “Melkor party” is removed from our version. So I would edit the sentence differently: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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11-07-2017, 12:34 PM | #39 |
Quentingolmo
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That looks fine to me
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11-07-2017, 01:47 PM | #40 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
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In this chapter I can not opine very much save in minor points. My text structure differs so much of this. But the information is the same.
Perhaps Arvalin is changed to Avathar many times, where Avathar is the south, for example in Mandos dwelings ?(maybe I'm oxidized geographically). Now Aiwendil said VT-LT-04: I don't think changing "Outer Lands" is necessary in this instance. Here, it refers to the lands outside Valinor, including Middle-earth. The problematic instance was one where it was used to mean the lands beyond Middle-earth, including Valinor. I agree with this. Greetings |
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