The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-26-2000, 02:56 PM   #1
Brian The Blue
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 13
Brian The Blue has just left Hobbiton.
Ring Faramir or Boromir?

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 12
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Now remeber that Boromir was only taken by the power of the ring dont use that against him. But who do you think was the better leader, warrior, and diplomat. Overall who do you think was better fit to rule?

&quot;Dont meddle in the affairs of wizards....&quot;

</p>
Brian The Blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2000, 03:46 PM   #2
Mithadan
Spirit of Mist
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,086
Mithadan is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Mithadan is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 386
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Faramir or Boromir?

Faramir, who was thoughtful, patient and wise. Boromir might have been an adequate leader, but he was first and foremost a warrior. Faramir was more like the Numenoreans of old.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
__________________
Beleriand, Beleriand,
the borders of the Elven-land.
Mithadan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2000, 05:36 PM   #3
Salabel
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 24
Salabel has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 8
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Faramir or Boromir?

Too right. Faramir was far wiser and more sensible, although he was not as strong; but brute strength and battle skills aren't everything.

</p>
Salabel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2000, 06:26 PM   #4
Zoe
Wight
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 223
Zoe has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 78
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Faramir or Boromir?

Faramir, definitely. Even without the Ring, I think that Boromir would get a bit too tyrannical and power-mad.

</p>
Zoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2000, 07:42 PM   #5
The Barrow-Wight
Night In Wight Satin
 
The Barrow-Wight's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 4,057
The Barrow-Wight is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1656
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Faramir or Boromir?

The most important aspect of leadership (and most difficult to attain) is earned respect. Followers will automatically respect the rank or position, and thus the person holding it. But to truly gain 'earned respect' one must win the troops loyalty through a natural combination of personality, wisdom, humility and ability. Faramir was the obvious superior in all of these.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>
__________________
The Barrow-Wight
The Barrow-Wight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2000, 03:23 PM   #6
Grand Admiral Reese
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 40
Grand Admiral Reese has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 38
</TD><TD><img src=http://www.facelink.com/edit/raw/rawimage/50/1315350.jpg?flezbwidth=60&flezbheight=60?flezbwidt h=60&flezbheight=60?flezbwidth=60&flezbheight=60?f lezbwidth=60&flezbheight=60?flezbwidth=60&flezbhei ght=60 WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Faramir or Boromir?

I think Faramir was truly the greater of the two as a leader.


Tall ships and tall kings Three times three, What brought they from the foundered land Over the flowing sea? Seven stars and seven stones And one white tree. .</br>
Administrator @ <a href=http://pub6.ezboard.com/bthegrandadmiralsforums>The Grand Admirals Forums</a>, <a href=http://pub10.ezboard.com/bb5techforums>The Grey Council Forums</a>, <a href=http://pub9.ezboard.com/bechostation12>The McClain Council</a> and <a href=http://pub14.ezboard.com/bthegrandmoffsforums>The Grand Moff's Forums</a>.</br> </p>
Grand Admiral Reese is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2000, 03:57 PM   #7
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,041
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 22
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Faramir or Boromir?

Boromir had the edge in combat prowess,but that was it. He was way too impatient and rash to be a leader of state.
Faramir had the admiration of his men,and was generally a good deal wiser than his brother. Faramir was without question more suited to be the Steward.

</p>
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2000, 05:35 PM   #8
Brian The Blue
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 13
Brian The Blue has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 19
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Faramir or Boromir?

Heres another debatable question. If Denathor loved Boromir so much then why did he send him instead of Faramir?

</p>
Brian The Blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2000, 08:51 PM   #9
the Lorien wanderer
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 276
the Lorien wanderer has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 61
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Faramir or Boromir?

Because Denethor wanted Boromir to have the glory that any in that Company were certain to get. No doubt he also thought him more capable than Faramir.
I think Faramir would have made a better leader. Boromir would have made a better army Captain.

Not all those who wander are lost.</p>
the Lorien wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2000, 11:53 PM   #10
Orald
Shadow of Malice
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: right behind you
Posts: 843
Orald has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Orald Send a message via Yahoo to Orald
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 135
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Faramir or Boromir?

I think Denethor chose Boromir strictly on primogenitor. It was his right. Unless I can't recall something, did Denethor love Boromir more? Did it say so in the book?

</p>
Orald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2000, 01:11 AM   #11
Zoe
Wight
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 223
Zoe has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 89
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Faramir or Boromir?

They (Denethor and Boromir) were certainly more alike in character than Denethor-Faramir or Faramir-Boromir. I think that Denethor was more proud of Boromir, but I'm not sure (and can't be bothered trying to check).

</p>
Zoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2000, 06:35 AM   #12
Voronwe
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Gondolin
Posts: 413
Voronwe has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 89
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Faramir or Boromir?

Actually, I think that Faramir was more alike to Denethor than Boromir was. Boromir was, first and foremost, a warrior. Denethor was not. Denethor and Faramir are very similar - the only major difference being that Denethor fell victim to pride and despair, whereas Faramir did not. Both were like the Numenoreans of old; Boromir, it is said, was more like the men of Rohan - a warrior, but not a leader except in battle. Faramir and Denethor were both shrewd and were both good judges of men's thoughts. That is why it was such a tragedy when Denethor fell - he could have been a great leader in the War of the Ring.


-Voronwë
"voyaging the Dark behind the world, a glimmering and fugitive star."</p>
__________________
"If you would be a real seeker after truth, you must at least once in your life doubt, as far as possible, all things." -- René Descartes
Voronwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2000, 05:46 PM   #13
Zoe
Wight
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 223
Zoe has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 94
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Faramir or Boromir?

Yes, but both Denethor and Boromir fell victim to pride (the Ring, you say? I reckon part of it was pride). Really, I don't think Faramir was much like Denethor at all.

</p>
Zoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2002, 12:50 PM   #14
stone of vision
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: France
Posts: 69
stone of vision has just left Hobbiton.
The Eye

Both of them could be valuable leaders, but each of both in a different way.
Boromir has for him, his passion, his valiance, his audacity, that self- confidence that force admiration, and a stringent reseach of perfection which seems to obssess him.
As Gandalf he was a "masterman", a man who seeks to rule without compromises, his destiny and those who would follow him.
That makes him vulnerable to the eseay side of the power, and the bite of pride.

Faramir has inherited of wisdom and never wished to lead, though his bravoure is a equal as his brother.
His concern, his care for the well -being of the people who live and from where he comes, his likes for what seems right, will give the strength and enough motivation to fight until victory.
He is one of those, for who power comes to them whitout them seeking it. Since they have no choice, but to use it in productive ways.

Because I tend to be more sensitive to the second description which correspond to my convictions, I would choose Faramir for that reasons et not because he's the best.

By the way, none of them is doomed to rule, as the place is deserved for the King who shall return.
__________________
silmarillien
All that is gold doesn't glitter.
***********************************


Nee, ai****ara
Dare mo ga konna kodoku ni naru no?
stone of vision is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2002, 02:34 PM   #15
Lothiriel Silmarien
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: New York
Posts: 829
Lothiriel Silmarien has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

I just wanna say that Denethor didn't pick Boromir to go instead of Faramir. Faramir had the dreams and he was gonna go but Boromir being the older brother and all, took his place and he told Faramir to stay behind and that he'd go for him.
__________________
Si vanwa na Romello vanwa Valimar!~*~
~*~Now lost, lost to those from the East is Valimar!
My LotR page
Lothiriel Silmarien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2002, 05:12 PM   #16
piosenniel
Desultory Dwimmerlaik
 
piosenniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat.....
Posts: 7,816
piosenniel is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Sting

Faramir seems a more well rounded character with respect to the role of leadership than does Boromir. He reminds me somewhat of Aragorn. He is intelligent, well liked/respected by his men, and seems more able to see the 'larger picture', that is beyond his immediate concerns for Gondor. Boromir is essentially a warrior. He is bold, loyal, & honorable. But, he is too quick to take action without thoroughly thinking through a position. He would be a good General under the command of Faramir.

On the other hand, Faramir was not in direct contact with the Ring, not subject to its evil ways.
__________________
Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.
piosenniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2002, 05:40 PM   #17
VanimaEdhel
Etheral Enchantress
 
VanimaEdhel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Wellesley College!
Posts: 1,473
VanimaEdhel has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to VanimaEdhel Send a message via MSN to VanimaEdhel
Silmaril

It depends on how you classify "great leader" I believe. The most benevolent, intelligent, strong, and probably the most likely to make a good change in the land is Faramir. Okay...what's good about Boromir? He was brave, even though he fell victim to the ring...I guess...and, if you wanted a leader to be like Denethor, Boromir would be your man.

And yes: Denethor sent Boromir to his death because he wanted Boromir to gain glory. You know how Humans, even in LotR, seem to, in general (well, Elves do too...) love glory and bravery and all that!
__________________
"I think we dream so we don't have to be apart so long. If we're in each others dreams, we can be together all the time." - Hobbes of Calvin and Hobbes
VanimaEdhel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2002, 09:01 PM   #18
Kalimac
Candle of the Marshes
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Flyover Country
Posts: 780
Kalimac has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

The question is "Faramir or Boromir?" My answer is "For what? Depends on the situation."

The way it seems to me is that if you're looking for a wonderful second-in-command or lieutenant, Boromir is it. He has a lot of physical power, is a very able warrior and very brash, and there's nothing that suggests he wasn't popular with his men - that sort of very energetic, rather bullheaded character can inspire people to do a lot more than they would otherwise during a long, slogging campaign. He also does best when taking a cue from someone else; in Gondor he was always under Denethor's command and was able to take directions from him and execute them very well, similarly he had great respect for Aragorn and obeyed his lead, but you get the feeling that when Boromir was in a situation where he was the PRIMARY leader that he didn't really know what to do with himself.

Faramir was quite the opposite, a born leader-of-men; a more intellectual, rational type of being. He was the thoughtful yet able type of leader (rather like Aragorn) that someone like Boromir could look up to, and who in turn would be a check for Boromir's worst impulses. As a second-in-command, though, Faramir wasn't up to much. Granted, Denethor was not in the best state of mind by the time he had his quarrels with Faramir in ROTK, but you get the feeling that Faramir has a very difficult time taking orders from anyone who is not Gandalf's level or higher. "Not if I found it in the highway would I take it," says Faramir, but it's clear that this is HIS choice; if Denethor had told him "Not if you find it in the highway will you take it" it's easy to see Faramir bridling at that - not disobeying, necessarily, but certainly thinking along the lines of "I'll do it because I want to, not because you tell me to." Boromir, OTOH, accepted Aragorn's orders on the subject - until, of course, the Ring got to be too much for him, but as was said, that shouldn't count against him in this, should it?
__________________
Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet
Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.
Kalimac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2002, 09:50 AM   #19
Amarinth
Wight
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: realm of agonized volcanoes
Posts: 113
Amarinth has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

an addendum---

both boromir and faramir were excellent warriors, but as "statesmen" or leaders faramir seemed a man of larger, non-egocentric convictions while boromir seemed to be of a more insular mindset, unable to easily see anything beyond the good of gondor. faramir understood and therefore could sense important circumstances in seemingly unimportant ones, e.g., what was afoot with frodo. and in this sense he was truly a full-blooded, far-seeing, global numenorean, the kind needed to lead a great nation.
__________________
pity this busy monster,manunkind, not / -progress is a comfortable disease;/ your victim (death and life safely beyond) / plays with the bigness of his littleness
---ee cummings
Amarinth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2002, 01:45 PM   #20
Daniel Telcontar
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 713
Daniel Telcontar has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Boromir proved himself as a warrior many times, and also he often drove the orcs back, so he has some leaderskills. But, as Gandalf says, the blood of Numenor is almost clean in Denethor and Faramir, but not in Boromir. Hence Denethor and Faramir must be most alike, and Famramir the most adept ruler.
__________________
Two beer or not two beer, that is the question; by Shakesbeer
Daniel Telcontar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2002, 03:37 PM   #21
Arwen Imladris
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Arwen Imladris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In a box with a fox
Posts: 1,347
Arwen Imladris has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I always liked Faramir better. Even his name is "Fair". He was the one who had the dream first. He did not ever want power, which made him the perfect leader.

Faramir was also better friends with Gandalf, that would atomatically make him the better leader.

Do you really think that Denethor was an adept leader?? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]
__________________
"Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."
Arwen Imladris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2002, 03:41 PM   #22
Daniel Telcontar
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 713
Daniel Telcontar has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I believe that Denethor was a good ruler. He was like the Kings of old, and although his rule as a steward is not described closely, I have no doubt that he ruled well. Gandalf says he was wise in his youth, and that he would not have dared use the palantir if not Gondor had been in trouble. He was only trying to do the best for Gondor.
__________________
Two beer or not two beer, that is the question; by Shakesbeer
Daniel Telcontar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2002, 07:25 AM   #23
littlemanpoet
Itinerant Songster
 
littlemanpoet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,072
littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Pipe

It is said in the books (be Gandalf I believe) that Denethor married a Gondorian woman of great beauty, who because of her meek lineage died young. Boromir took after her in all but humility while Faramir took after Denethor in all but pride. Thus, Denethor, reminded of his late wife by Boromir, held B. as his favorite. So it is true that Boromir took more after the Avari of the Twilight and Faramir after the Numenoreans of old.
littlemanpoet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2002, 07:33 AM   #24
Daniel Telcontar
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 713
Daniel Telcontar has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

You are right, littlemanpoet, that Denethor married a gondorian woman, and I think her name was Morwen of Lossarnach. But she didn't die young due to her lineage, but because she longed for the sea and could not be happy in the stonecity of Minas Tirith.
__________________
Two beer or not two beer, that is the question; by Shakesbeer
Daniel Telcontar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2002, 10:22 AM   #25
littlemanpoet
Itinerant Songster
 
littlemanpoet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,072
littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Pipe

Yes, Daniel, thanks for the correction on that point. I sort of hunched that I was not getting it quite right on the cause of death.

The Frodo-weakest or strongest thread kind of strayed into a discussion of Faramir versus Boromir, so I'm quoting those posts here:
Quote:
littlemanpoet:
A very well written and moving account of Sam's growth, Child.
I've just been rereading Frodo's interrogation by Faramir in Ithilien. In the context of Frodo's plight as quoted in my last post on this thread, the self-control exhibited by his careful words and circumspection reveal his depth of character. Funny, I had not noticed it in qutie that light before. Faramir's words capture a part of it:

"...there is something strange about you, Frodo, an elvish air, maybe."

I have to smile at Tolkien's own circumspection in using Faramir, a true descendant of Numenor, to perceive this elvish element in Frodo, and then "coda" it with "maybe".
Having read this section over again for the first time in a few years, my appreciation for Faramir has again risen right up there with Gandalf and Aragorn. Suddenly he is my favorite character after Frodo and Sam - again. And his devotion to Boromir makes me want to read all over again Boromir's dying words, acknowledging Aragorn as "my king". Powerful stuff.

stone of vision:
Aaya Littlemanpoet,
Sorry if I misread or misunderstood

"And his devotion to Boromir makes me want to read all over again Boromir's dying words, acknowledging Aragorn as "my king". Powerful stuff."

Isn't that the line Boromir embodied by Sean Bean said in the movie?

As I told in an other thread:
In the movie, Sean Bean’s acting at the last moments of Boromir touched me very much,) his respectful aknowledgement and acceptation, his “love” for Aragorn as the man he is, as his king, leads him to the peace of mind and the satisfaction he may desire. Boromir left the middle earth his spirit and his soul free and intact in the vision of P jackson. (sob !)

On the contrary in the book, Boromir keeps his pride and his unsatifaction till the end. . He didn’t challenge openly Aragorn’rights but never recognized personally it.
His last words said he was sorry. Who was he sorry for the hobbits? For frodo? For himself? For failing? Not for forgiveness. Then he stated with coldness “I have paid” implying he own defeat, his own belated error, accepting what he thinks he deserved.

I admit because of the movie influence, Sean Bean's acting/ PJ 's pov- I also get confused about my own beliefs in the book where Broromir's portrayal is less pleasant.

And yes I quite liked the way Sean Bean/PJ portrayed Boromir

littlemanpoet:
Oops. I wondered about that as I wrote my last post on this thread. Sure enough, it was in the movie and not the book. I shall now commit heresy against the subcreator himself and suggest that PJ and the movie and Sean Bean surpassed Tolkien's rendition of the scene. Not that I necessarily believe it, just felt like throwing it out there. However, I do read the scene a little differently than you, Stone of Vision, my friend. I see Boromir's recognition of Aragorn's rights in: 'Farewell, Aragorn! Go to Minas Tirith and save my people! I have failed.' In saying this, Boromir acknowledges Aragorn's right to be the savior of his people. And Aragorn denies Boromir's defeat by saying 'few have gained such a victory'. The victory is having died well. Very Nordic.
I wish Sean Bean got better movie roles than he does. I've seen him in much, but never in a better role than LotR-FotR.

stone of vision:
Dear littlemanpoet,
I would be honnored if could have a look at my post about one of the possible Boromir's portraying in the thread"the original breaking of the fellowship" where I had extracted some parts in my fore message. ( the third one)
Here's the link:
the original breaking of the fellowship
I would like you to give your opinion about it. Please

What is disturbing me in "'Farewell, Aragorn! Go to Minas Tirith and save my people! I have failed" is the fact that Boromir used the possessive pronoun ** my** people. couldn't he have said rather : " the people of Minas Thirith"

Certainly another geekyness of my part

Child of the 7th Age
Littlmanpoet and Stone of Vision -- Guess what? Faramir is also my "third favorite" character after Frodo and Sam. And that is saying a lot, since I tend to be partial to elves, hobbits, and other non-human characters.
What fascinates me about Faramir, among other things, is how closely Tolkien identified with him. And I feel that identification affected not only Faramir, but also the role of his brother Boromir in the story. In one of his Letters, Tolkien denies he is like Gandalf in response to a query and instead asserts that the character he is most like is Faramir (though the author claims not to have the latter's courage.)

Tolkien had a recurring dream in life where a huge wave overcomes an island, obviously a reference to Numenor/Atlantis. His son Michael had this very same recurring dream about the Great Wave, even though he had no knowledge of the dream by his father. (A little strange, no?) Anyways, it is this dream which he gives to Faramir in the story. It is also Faramir, the only character in the book, who stands up with his men before a meal and faces West. As he explains to Frodo, this is to face towards Elvenhome and Valinor and remember the great ones who live there. The way this is phrased, and I don't have the book beside me this minute, it is, in effect, a prayer. Frodo hangs his head and says he "feels rustic" and inadequate after hearing this explanation of what is obviously a very spiritual thing since his own culture had nothing like this. How interesting that Faramir, whom Tolkien identified with, should be the only character to have this overt religious expression! Also like Tolkien, both Faramir and his bride Eowyn were motherless.

Tolkien was an enormously private person and for him to admit his identification with Faramir in writing is, I believe, quite revealing. I think Faramir walked right out of Tolkien's subconscious. Again, in the Letters, Tolkien says: "A new character has come on the scene (I am sure I did not invent him, I did not even want him, though I like him, but there he came walking out of the woods of Ithilien) Faramir, the brother of Boromir...." So if Faramir says he can see an elvish look about Frodo, you can bet your boots that the author is saying he sees it too!

Given Tolkin's identification with the character, Faramir's limitations also intrigue me, especially his suspicions of Gollum and how his archers almost make an end to him. In this instance, as contrasted with the prayers before dining scene, it is Frodo who comes over as the more sensitive and compassionate.

Now, in the Letters, while Tolkien goes on and on at length in several places about Faramir--he barely mentions his brother Boromir. At one point, Tolkien gives a spirited defense of Faramir's relationship with Eowyn. There are a scant 4 references to Boromir in the entire letters. So I think there is something personal going on here. Tolkien truly liked Faramir and identified with him and, by contrast, I believe, he truly disliked his counter-ego Boromir. I think that duality strongly affects how these two characters come over in the book. Iwould say it is one of the things that makes Boromir's "repentence" less convincing.

I agree that PJ's Boromir is a lot "nicer" than JRRT's, but I think that has a lot to do with how Tolkien viewed Faramir whom he sympathetically described in the Letters as having "a bossy brother" and a "stern proud father." And I'm afraid I have a feeling closer to JRRT than PJ on this one, though it made for a great scene in the movie! sharon the 7th age hobbit

littlemanpoet:
Stone of Vision, I'll look up that thread as soon as I've post this reply to Child regarding Faramir.
Child, the connection between JRRT and Faramir is convincing. I accept it. Regarding, however, Faramir's lesser compassion for Gollum as compared to Frodo, I would not go too far with the subconscious iconography (I may be using that word wrong, it just tripped out). Tolkien's revision was a very conscious process, as he tells us himself, and Faramir's Gondorian-ness and duties as a lieutenant with orders to follow require that he be strict regarding Gollum's illegal entry into the Caves. That he actually relents and lets Gollum go reveals his depth of compassion and perhaps foresight, as well as, perhaps, the connection again to JRRT subconsciously.

Child of the 7th Age
Re Faramir:

"That he actually relents and lets Gollum go reveal his depth of compassion and perhaps foresight, as well as , perhaps, he connection again to JRRT subconsciously."

Good point, Littlemanpoet. Unlike the situation with Sam, you never sense a personal animosity. The one thing Faramir did not have, could not have, was the sense of connection with Gollum, the identification with the suffering of Gollum, which was fostered by the wearing of the Ring itself.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit
Hope that adds of a little interest.

[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]
littlemanpoet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2002, 10:51 AM   #26
Nar
Wight
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 228
Nar has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I've always played with the idea that while Denethor consistently favored Boromir out of politic necessity (Boromir was the heir and would have to take over,) and out of a certain emotional apathy arising from his despair, Faramir was really his favorite all along, although Denethor would never have admitted that to a living soul. Their minds and souls were very much akin as highly insigtful & intelligent Numenoreans, whereas Boromir and Denethor had nothing in common-- leading Denethor to be protective of Boromir, and perhaps too indulgent, hoping he would grow into the Stewardship.

Consider Denethor's bitter jealousy of the friendship of Faramir & Gandalf. Denethor has many reasons to be suspicious of Gandalf, but the degree of jealousy suggests a real longing for exclusive possession of his son's love-- more in line with Faramir being his real favorite and Denethor feeling rejected.

After news of Boromir's death came, it might have been easier for Denethor to believe that he ironically sent his favorite to his death-- a cruel twist of fate, but with no possiblility of guilty choice on Denethor's part. The deeper fear would be that Denthor indeed made a choice, choosing death for his less loved son and relative safety for his more loved son-- that he sacrificed loyal Boromir to save Faramir, that ungrateful Wizard's thrall who never really loved his old dad as he ought.

Of course, at the time, Denethor actually made no choice at all, as he did not expect the quest to be fatal-- but he might well have wondered later if he had made a choice without fully knowing it, considering that the foresight of the Numenoreans made this possible. (See Halbarad, Aragorn)

Although I think Boromir is the better captain in battle, being as brave, stronger & more cheerful, Faramir's my favorite, as he is the better strategist and general, and almost as good a captain. I think Denethor preferred Faramir also.
Nar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2002, 11:57 AM   #27
Saxony Tarn
Wight
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: a western shore
Posts: 132
Saxony Tarn has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Saxony Tarn
Sting

This has been quite insightful, and i dare say the "inside info" here has validated a few of my hypotheses (i expect i'll see it emerge as a central theme in a fanfic) however, i'd promised myself i'd stay out of this thread as it appeared i'd be the lone voice of even tongue-in-cheek dissent.

Having now confessed to my sympathy for the Devil, let me take a spin at being his Advocate...

A few good reasons for laying my sword at the feet of King Boromir:

1) From carrying around all those guilt trips and great expectations from some 25K-odd people counting on him to deliver their future (assuming Aragorn didn't show up) the man is definately motivated. No slacker loafing around and embezzling from the treasury while the public of Gondor literally has to eat stone for breakfast. i would expect him to be so much of a hands-on sovereign that he'd have to be ordered to take a holiday.

2) On the campaign platform: Infrastructure growth, border security, economic revitalization, new flowering of national spirit, resettling of Ithilien, conquest of Mordor...

3) Despite having no qualms about blowing his own horn, he's been in the soldier biz long enough to understand teamwork, prudent resource deployment, and most importantly, DELEGATION. (i realize that i am giving him credit for a minimum amount of intelligence and common sense, without which he likely would not have survived to be able to take part in the story) The catch here would be to whom he delegates what. Now if we assume that Denethor loaded so many expectations on him in assumption that he'd someday be taking over, and bring in the comparison with King Eärnur from the back of the book appendices, it's not too much of a leap of logic for me to infer that Bor' might have been counting on recruiting Far' for a vice-president-like backup (a sort of, my learned, diplomatic younger brother playing Steward Mardil to my King Eärnur, if you will) Despite whatever other control issues he may have had, i can't see him being foolish enough to cut his brother out of the picture (especially if, at Osgiliath & others, we can assume that they've conducted field ops as a team before) On the issue of him making a good second-in-command -- this guy has been groomed for years to be top dog and by now sees second place as the first loser. However, as long as he's backed by a support staff whose advice he can trust, i would say that the governed could to a great extent trust him. As for taking cues from Aragorn, well, unless Tolkein constructed his military vastly different from ours, i should expect Bor' started at the bottom rank of officers and had to earn his way up (looking at Denethor, i'd expect him to MAKE the young man work his way up) He'd understand and respect pecking order, as in, "Gandalf was party leader, and I am here to keep Gondor's hand in, then Gandalf fell off the bridge after telling Aragorn to lead, so therefore I will work with Aragorn until such time as things change"...

4) and last but not least, we all know what stands behind just about every successful man. Unlike the other great leader candidates in this saga, he's not yet spoken for. Okay, so my Middle-Earth avatar has ulterior motives -- but given how nonexistent his relationship with his delicate mother was, Bor' would probably respect an ambitious consort (see advisors whom he can or can't trust above) -- or see her as a Sword of Damocles-like check to keep him in balance (and the populace of Gondor entertained) Not to mention, making sure HIS children didn't turn out so messed up all because their father spent too much time looking in his crystal ball and got seduced by the Dark Side.

Hey -- it's good to be the Queen!

s.t.

|_|) <-- it comes in pints, and this one's for you!
__________________
&lt;-- who, me? Take the Ring? Betray the Fellowship?? Nah -- couldn't be ME, i'm too cute...
Saxony Tarn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2002, 05:53 AM   #28
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Auspicious Wraith
 
Eomer of the Rohirrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,990
Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Sting

I wonder if 2 brothers could get along well enough to rule Gondor, because from all the valid points already on this thread, it's obvious to me that Boromir and Faramir would make a fantastic team.

One would always have to be slightly higher than the other though, I'm not sure it would work.
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond
Eomer of the Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2002, 01:13 AM   #29
orlandoandsaran
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Greenwood Home
Posts: 91
orlandoandsaran has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to orlandoandsaran
Shield

I agree with you Eomer of Rohirrim. Both would make a perfect team as they have a close bond between them as you can see how much they loved each other in the book. One wiser, one braver...it will even out each weaknesses.
__________________
Vor|otwen Bloom spouse of Orlando Bloom.
orlandoandsaran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2002, 12:52 PM   #30
GreatWarg
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: East of the Misty Mountains
Posts: 339
GreatWarg has just left Hobbiton.
Question

Mith's right. And yes, Denethor favored Boromir because he "was not a wizard's pupil, and would've done anything I told him." BUT Faramir, was like the kings of old, something that Boromir actually didn't have. SOmewhere in the Appendices, it says that "Faramir was more like the kings of old, as was Denethor, but Boromir lacked those qualities..."
__________________
"What shall we do, what shall we do!" he cried. "Escaping goblins to be caught be wolves!"
GreatWarg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2002, 12:53 PM   #31
Luineglin
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: In a terrible paradise
Posts: 93
Luineglin has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I belive that both would have made great leaders. But would have Faramir been to patient and waited to long or would of borimir not waited long enough. Either way i belive that they would have been great leaders and especially as a team.
__________________
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all that wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king.
Bilbo Baggins Describing Aragorn Son of Arathorn Heir of Elendil,Elessar-Elfstone of his people
Luineglin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2003, 10:19 AM   #32
GaladrieloftheOlden
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Massachusetts - digging up a bottomless hole, searching for something that's not there...
Posts: 1,611
GaladrieloftheOlden has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to GaladrieloftheOlden Send a message via MSN to GaladrieloftheOlden Send a message via Yahoo to GaladrieloftheOlden
Silmaril

Most likely somebody mentioned this before- I haven't read the whole thread- but it said in one of the appendixes i think that Boromir did not have any Numenorean blood, while Faramir did. O and I think it said somewhere that Boromir went to Imladris, not Faramir, because Faramir wanted to go but Boromir thought it was too dangerous and went himself. Sorry if its been said before.
__________________
"Glue... very powerful stuff."
GaladrieloftheOlden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2003, 11:45 AM   #33
Gurlie
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
i totally think that they messed Faramir up in the movie He is awesome and good in the book
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2003, 11:54 AM   #34
Gurlie
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Silmaril

I totally think that Faramir is better because he is resistant and he helps the hobbits He is totally awesome
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2003, 12:22 PM   #35
Lathriel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Lathriel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME)
Posts: 612
Lathriel has just left Hobbiton.
Tolkien

I think Faramir would be a better leader because he has more common sense and inteligence then Boromir. However he always struggled with the fact that Denethor favoured Boromir. I guess Denethor send Boromir because he knew Boromir would probably try to take the ring which is what Denethor himself would have done. Also Denethor overlooked the qualities in Faramir or he simply didn't try.

Note: When Denethor send Boromir to Rivendell he was already looking in the Palantir
__________________
Back again
Lathriel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2003, 12:28 PM   #36
Aragorn2002
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: US
Posts: 91
Aragorn2002 has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Aragorn2002
I would have to agree, definatly Faramir
________
Uggs

Last edited by Aragorn2002; 04-15-2011 at 03:07 AM.
Aragorn2002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2003, 12:53 PM   #37
galadriel'smaiden
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Vilnius
Posts: 75
galadriel'smaiden has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to galadriel'smaiden
Silmaril

My vote has to go to Faramir. He had seemingly better judgment, wisdom and evn patience. But don't get me wrong, Boromir had good leadership skills for a war, he would have definately topped Faramir there. But still, overall Faramir would be a better leader.
__________________
"For God's sake Ed, just take the stupid call!" said Justin.
"Hello, Mum, I'm on stage," said Ed casually.
"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGGH!" screamed Justin.
galadriel'smaiden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2003, 01:40 PM   #38
Dark Shadow
Wight
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Someplace in Middle Earth
Posts: 130
Dark Shadow has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I think Faramir would make a better leader. He seems to have more wisdom and better judgement than his brother. And you can really see how much the people of Gondor love him. Take Beregond for example. He sees Faramir returning from Osgiliath, followed by the witch king, and he races out to help. Then later on, when Denethor is going to burn himself along with Faramir, Beregond slays Denethor's servants to save Faramir, losing his place on the guard. However, Boromir was the more heroic of the two, so I suppose if you look for heroism in a ruler then he would have made a better one. Actually, I think perhaps Boromir would have made the perfect, heroic leader, and Faramir would have made a good conseler, but then again, the people of GOndor might have prefered Faramir as a ruler. I don't know actually. Both have good qualities.
Dark Shadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2003, 03:05 PM   #39
XPhial
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Here, there, and everywhere.
Posts: 24
XPhial has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
Faramir was really his favorite all along, although Denethor would never have admitted that to a living soul. Their minds and souls were very much akin as highly insigtful & intelligent Numenoreans, whereas Boromir and Denethor had nothing in common--
In my opinion, that's exactly why Denethor would favour Boromir. We tend to despise in others the things we dislike about ourselves. Denethor seemed to me to wish he had the physical prowress of Boromir and his active disposition, while disliking the 'weakness' he projected onto Faramir.

As for who would make a better leader, I believe Tolkien wrote Faramir's character as a foil to Boromir's rashness. He embodies the greatness of Gondor and its history without the impetuousness his older brother displays. He is written to be a good leader of men, even in the way he is able to accept that his own authority has limits.
__________________
Must we take a life for hateful eyes to glisten once again? For we find ourselves in the same old mess singin' drunken lullabies.
XPhial is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2003, 07:15 PM   #40
Haelothiel
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Bree
Posts: 27
Haelothiel has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

I have to agree with most everyone and say that Faramir was the better leader. I do believe that Boromir would be a good friend to a leader, because of his speech to Aragorn while he died. I don't think it would have been possible for him to serve his brother though, because of his rashness, and pride. Boromir would have been respected, and could have led the Gondorian army very well, but I don't think he could take care of Gondor, especially during peace times.
__________________
"Ford! there's an infinite number of monkeys outside who want to talk to us about this script for Hamlet they've worked out!"
Haelothiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:33 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.