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Old 12-23-2002, 01:20 PM   #41
Cherie Centaur
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I have to admit I was ****ed off at the whole Elven bowmen thing but Haldir's death made me as sad as I could be with The Clone of Boromir's treachery still in my mind. I now understand why they killed him off (I've now been thinking maybe they should kill the clone off too ).
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Old 12-24-2002, 12:32 AM   #42
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I agree, Eomer. After I got over the "what are they doing here." I thought "how cool." I think the death of an elf was a nice touch and sort of underlined the mortality struggle between Arwen and Elrond.
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Old 12-25-2002, 10:04 AM   #43
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I <I><B>Hated</I></B> the elves at Helm's Deep. I'm sorry. Many of you have brought up good points, and showing that Elves <I>were</I> fighting Sauron is all well and good, but it was just so poorly done!<P>Haldir; "The Elves have decided to fight alongside Men, to honor ancient alliances."<BR>Aragorn; "Great! So... Um... when are they getting here?"<BR>Haldir; "Whaddya mean? We're here!"<BR>Aragorn; "All twenty of you, huh?"<P>It had such a political gesture feel to it.<BR>Then, when Haldir died, I was wishing it would get over with quicker. It seemed like such a obvious ploy to get the audience involved. For some of you it worked. Good for you! I guess I'm just to cynical and heartless to identify with a character that has zero screen time. I'd much rather have had Hama get a death scene at Helm's Deep, and stay closer to the books. <P>Maybe I've just seen too many war movies, but I am sick and tired of the cliche slow motion, all sound ceasing, sad song playing death. It worked for Boromir really well. Boromir was a <I>character</I>. I could identify with him. (of course, I may be slightly biased, as he was always my favorite) Haldir was <I>no-one</I>. He did nothing. It wasn't even his decision to come to Helm's Deep. He's just a lieutenant. IMO, if he gets a death scene, so should every other soldier in the whole army. Equal rights! Equal rights!<P>Oh, yeah. And I didn't like him even as a character. Pudgy elf. Didn't work for me that he was a bad**s warrior. He was too proud, too fat and too haughty. Seemed more like a feudal baron than a kingly elf. Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
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Old 12-26-2002, 01:35 AM   #44
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As others have said, it was weird to have elves turn up at HD, but once they were there, it was plenty of fun, and Haldir's death was poignant not only because he was a good guy, but because it was representative of the sacrifice the elves made. As Elrond points out (yuck, but necessary for the non book readers), even if Aragorn survives the coming battles, he still dies. Haldir never needed to die. His sacrifice is therefore more meaningful than any number of human deaths.
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Old 12-26-2002, 02:10 AM   #45
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Haldir's death was sad, just seeing that part when they close up to the look on his face. Yes, I know the elves did not go to Helm's Deep in the book, but it was not as bad as I thought it would be, but I am a pretty easy going person in these kind of matters.
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Old 12-26-2002, 07:25 AM   #46
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True, it's always sadder when an elf dies than a man - they've lived for so long, and they don't have to die, unlike men. <P>But for me, the only good thing about the elves turning up at Helm's Deep was seeing Craig Parker get butchered!! Those of you who had to put up with the early days of New Zealand soap Shortland Street know what I'm talking about - it's a kiwi thing. Besides, he was such a dork compared to Haldir in the book. When I saw the movie 2nd time round, the person next to me cracked up when they saw him turn up in his gaylord armour, and I had to join in. <P>One of the greatest advantages the movie could've had over the book would be to change location to show the battles of Lorien and Erebor, if only for a few seconds. Once again PJ takes something great and turns it into mush. I really hope we get to see Halbarad and co in the 3rd movie - as Theoden says if they're anything like Aragorn they must be great warriors. I'm prepared for disappointment, though!
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Old 12-26-2002, 09:05 AM   #47
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In the first movie I hated Haldir, he was snobby and rude (nothing like what I thought he was going to be like). But in TTT, even though I was extremely angry at the fact that all those elves went to HD , I cried my eyes out when Haldir died . <BR>I was so loud that the ppl in front of me turned around and glared at me. Anyway, even though I liked Haldir alot better in TTT, did PJ really have to put elves in HD? That was a big dissapointment for me.
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Old 12-27-2002, 09:12 PM   #48
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I was in complete shock when they killed Haldir. He is by far one of my favorite characters (#2 after Legolas) and I was quite angry to see him at Helms Deep to begin with.<BR>To put it simply, I was traumatized when he was killed. I've seen it twice so far. The first time all I could do was stare in complete shock....I have no idea what happens for at least 5 minutes after that. And the last time I went I covered my eyes for most of Helms Deep.<BR>Very disturbing, it was.<P>Nila
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Old 12-27-2002, 09:36 PM   #49
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Poor Nila! You hadn't heard of Haldir's death? What a bummer!I hate surprises, especially bad/sad ones. Since the movies are different from the books, I read all the spoilers I can, to be prepared.
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Old 12-28-2002, 02:01 PM   #50
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I was so sad when Haldir died! You could kinda see it coming though. When he gets slashed by the orc, he becomes distracted by his wound and you know something bad is gonna happen. Poor Haldir.
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Old 12-28-2002, 05:16 PM   #51
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Not only did it annoy me when the elves turned up, it total spun my head so i witht the rest of the film. It also got all my friends talking to me in the middle of the film wanting to know why the elf died if elves are immortal. Now you try to quietly explain the idea of elves the dark lord ruining the perfect vision etc and keep an eye on the plot. Plus my friends are so slow and have never even lifted LOTR let alone read it so i was doubly annoyed.<P>I so loved Haldir, he was a change from Legolas(and his followers with banners!!) and then Arwen. I was so sad, i cried loads but then i cried when all the trees where torn down, i mean what did they do wrong. I wanted Haldir in the thrid one at the wedding!
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Old 12-28-2002, 07:24 PM   #52
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Here is an awesome pic of Haldir i found<BR>
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Old 12-28-2002, 08:42 PM   #53
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rofl@doug<P>I know just how you feel, having wished many an aussie soap star in various guises (the white rabbit bimbo from Matrix and sundry Star Wars characters) a horrible death
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Old 12-28-2002, 09:28 PM   #54
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Silmaril

I know this version in the movie is way different but at least this way he made the movie! (still furious about Glorfindel) Still he makes my list of characters that got screwed over by PJ: <BR>1. Glorfindel<BR>2. Tom Bombadil (they could have at least mentioned the guy)<BR>3. Faramir <BR>4. Hama<BR>5. Quickbeam ( i love him!)<BR>*5. Haldir<BR>I'm still holding out that Eowyn actually does something in ROTK.
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Old 12-28-2002, 09:41 PM   #55
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Mmmm, poor Glorfindel. Think of it this way...what if Glorfindel HAD been the one to ride out and meet Aragorn in FotR? Don't you think PJ might then have been tempted to send Glorfindel to Helm's Deep at the head of Elrond's archers? Then it would be Glorfindel that died, a much greater tragedy.
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Old 12-28-2002, 09:44 PM   #56
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Oi<P>I just noticed that Haldir in that pic has brown eyes. The blue-eyed conspiracy is over at last
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Old 12-29-2002, 08:30 PM   #57
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I agree it would have been a huge tragedy. (and most likely led to riots of Tolken fans in theatres) but the question is would it have been better for the movie's flow? I mean, if your going to kill off and elf, why not one we would have a real attachment to as opposed to one who gets 5min screentime? (please note i have yet to see the extended dvd of FOTR)<BR>*note: i am not supporting nor discrediting the appearance and killing of elves at helms deep, just making a point*<P>Oh, and I really like that Haldir is a little more rounder in the face and has brown eyes. The other's were starting to look like clones.
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Old 12-30-2002, 11:04 AM   #58
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I think his death made the battle more realistic. I didn't have any particular feelings towards him until he died, and the seeing him killed like that gave the scene the emotion it needed. My friend and I sat with our hands over our mouths in shock. It was one of those moments when you feel like reaching up into the screen and stopping it so that he's ok.
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Old 12-30-2002, 03:05 PM   #59
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When I saw Haldir appear at Helm's Deep I darn near yelled "YES!" because I was glad the elves were there, illogical though that may be. I was shocked when he died, though he played Haldir a bit oddly in my opinion...<P>And, am I the only one who thought some of the Elves at Helm's Deep looked like women? Not just feminine, but actual women? (this is not a critique, I was just curious) COULD there have been female warrior elves??
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Old 12-30-2002, 03:26 PM   #60
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Sting

When the elves marched neatly into Helm’s Deep it was very moving. And Haldir’s speech about renewing old Alliances. (sob) Aragorn hugging him was also great.<P>His death was tragic and nearly made me cry, because he didn’t have to be there at all but chose to!
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Old 12-30-2002, 03:47 PM   #61
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And, am I the only one who thought some of the Elves at Helm's Deep looked like women? Not just feminine, but actual women? (this is not a critique, I was just curious) COULD there have been female warrior elves??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR>Lhunbelethiel, that's really funny because I just had a 'flu induced dream about that, kinda an Eowyn/warrier elf dream. Haldir's sister came along for the battle saw her brother die and fell in love with Aragorn. Which is funny 'cos Haldir doesnt have a sister and aragorn was a gray old man who kinda looked like leslie neilson. Trust me, are you guys glad I didnt write the script for TTT! <BR>I dunno why I'm laughing but I'm ill and Im allowed too.
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Old 12-30-2002, 06:35 PM   #62
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Silmaril

Thank you for the picture, Rumil, now I'm crying again...it's okay, I'm used to it...<P>The way I went into "The Two Towers" was that I consciously tried to forget everything about the book. I went in just looking to see how good it was as a movie, as that is what it was. And, you know what? If you only concentrate on that, it is an <I>amazing, amazing</I> movie that carries the same messages and themes as the books.<P>I did kind of think that the Elves showing up right at that moment was a tad too coincidental, but I did not mind that they came. It went along with the whole Elrond-grouchy-face thing that PJ put into the story. Can't say I like that part, but still, it did not ruin the story.<P>What I keep saying is, "Even if Frodo were to write the story down, maybe he would not get everything exactly as it was, as he was not in all three places." I mean, there are some things (like the Elves coming to Helm's Deep) that he would <I>know</I> didn't happen, but no one knows exactly what was going on back home with Arwen and cranky-head-movie-Elrond.<P>Then there is what Phillipa Boyens says when people complain about the lack of Bombadil-ness: "Well, just because we didn't show it doesn't mean it didn't happen! We just decided to show what we could fit! Although we didn't film it, we can't automatically assume that it didn't happen to them! We didn't show you every day of their journey!" I think that it's kind of cute that she came up with that excuse. Well, I also like her because she was completely smitten with Mr. Mortensen and Mr. Bean, and I think that's adorable...
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Old 12-31-2002, 02:54 PM   #63
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Merigrin! How weird! You had that dream after I mentioned the warrior women elves! haha! I know what you mean about sickness induced dreams... they can be bizarro. I wish I had LOTR dreams, but alas, none. I did have a lovely Viggo dream where I was hugging him. *swoon*<P>Hope you feel better soon!
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Old 12-31-2002, 03:13 PM   #64
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Silmaril

While I understand the thought that someone had to die, I am sorry that Haldir had to be the one. I liked him very much for being one of the minor(in my humble oppinion) characters. Though PJ changed the story line in having elves come to Helms Deep, I feel that he did it as well as he could and with a lot of thought. But poor Haldir.....
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Old 01-01-2003, 04:35 AM   #65
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Sting

Hey, I'm a guy and I had a few tears in my eyes, belive it or not, when the Ents started destroying Isengard. That part was amazing. I love trees, so that really was breathtaking.
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Old 01-01-2003, 05:18 AM   #66
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> In the film, we couldn't be presented with the fighting in Lothlorien and Mirkwood. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh. Why not? Maybe we should discuss that in another thread though.<P>Back on the Haldir thing, someone mentioned they liked Aragorn hugging him, which made me re-think it. It was supposed to be funny how Haldir didn't want to hug him, like "oh, you filthy human, I just polished my armour!" - but why of all peoples would an Elf not want a hug? Is that not grossly out of character for their entire race? Why should Gimli be so soppy when an Elf won't even hug Elessar? PJs artistic licence should be revoked.
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Old 01-01-2003, 07:17 AM   #67
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I think it was his own fault he died, as he wasn't even wearing proper protective armour! Honestly! You may think you're a great fighter, but accidents do happen! Haldir learned the importance of Cycling Helmets the hard way. When he died, I was sitting there thinking, "ah well, someone had to die, and <I>he isn't wearing any armour</I>!!!" It was sad, but not too sad.
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Old 01-01-2003, 06:08 PM   #68
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Why not? Because aside from time constraints, will the audience really be interested in shots of random battles in places they've never heard of? It takes time and care to establish a relationship with a single character, much less an army. You might say to yourself, "aaah, yes, that's the Mirkwood elves," but everyone else would be saying "who are those people? what have they got to do with anything? Where's Aragorn and Legolas and Gimli?"<P>As for the hug, Haldir's reticience is not supposed to be a comment on emotionless elves. I mean, you've seen both Arwen and Legolas getting pretty emotional. It's a reflection of Haldir himself, as a warrior, a hard man with a hard job to do. This is the guy who refused to let a dwarf into Lorien without a blindfold. This is the guy with some fairly pessimistic comments to make on the state of the world and the darkness spreading over it. I think it was totally in character.
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Old 01-01-2003, 06:51 PM   #69
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I agree with Alex Chamois. I was upset when Haldir died but it made the movie more intimate and emotional and brought you into the whole war sense of the movie. Personally...my favorite part was when the Elves showed up at Helms Deep. I was shocked because that wasn't in the book. It was really amazing. And the way they turned in syncronization...perfect.
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Old 01-01-2003, 08:00 PM   #70
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I thought Peter Jackson had Haldir die in order to underscore the Arwen/Elrond scenes about mortality. The death of an elf is somehow more shocking. Haldir didn't have to be there and could have chosen eternity had he not put himself into battle. Throughout the movie Arwen and Elrond and Aragorn struggled over Arwen's choice of mortality. Haldir's death was a heroic statement about the elves' role in the fight against Mordor and also emphasized what Arwen was choosing.
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Old 01-02-2003, 01:45 AM   #71
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Haldir's death drove me quite close to tears. It was really sad and more so as he looks down and sees more of his kin dead, when they cld hve simply sailed to Valinor peacefully. <P>Another reason for his death might be that during the voice of saruman scene in ROTK (if its there) Theoden will not agree with saruman because he is reminded of Haldir instead of Hama, who was killed by a warg rider earlier. But the one flaw is that maybe Theoden hasn't seen his death as he was in the keep. Maybe saruman will try to convince Aragorn.
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Old 01-02-2003, 08:34 AM   #72
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I agree with Eomer on why P.J. brought in the elves.<P>I also saw in Haldir's death an underscoring of Arwen's choice. The enormity of casting aside immortality is captured in portraying the death of an elf. For me this made the scenes between Elrond and Arwen and Aragorn's conflict about Arwen's choice all the more poignant.
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Old 01-02-2003, 03:14 PM   #73
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Well, I FINALY saw the extended version of FOTR, and let me tell you having seen TTT, I almost cried during his scenes with Aragorn in Lothlorien. <P>I can speak as one who saw TTT without having read the book (ran out and bought it the next day though!) The scene where the elves come to Helms Deep is emotional and wonderful. And I can forgive that they changed it from the book. I am now just a little more than halfway through ROTK, and I'm already wishing it was next Christmas!
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Old 01-02-2003, 04:57 PM   #74
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Just a quick note to say that I have just seen TTT again, and Haldir is wearing armour. He's just not wearing a helmet, but there's all this bronze/gold metal covering his chest, which I assume to be fancy armour.
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Old 01-03-2003, 07:19 AM   #75
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Legolas getting pretty emotional. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Maybe this is more of a reflection on Orlando than Legolas, but I haven't seen a whole lot of emotion out of this guy. He looked more confused when Gandalf died than anything. Looking at the ground doesn't make you look sad. Being torn apart like Elijah/Frodo was does. You've made me think about it some more, Alex, and I'd have to say that with the exceptions of Arwen and Galadriel the Elves are much less emotional and especially compassionate than I think they should have been. Elrond definitely has a chip on his shoulder. I don't think Haldir made much of an impression on me as a character, so I didn't really feel sad when he got butchered, almost certainly hacked to pieces and probably eaten.
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Old 01-03-2003, 08:29 AM   #76
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One comment too the fight-when-you're-dying-Boromir-thing. Boromir was shoot with arrows, none of those acctualy hit him in the heart or head, Haldir's backhead did get slit in two. If there had been a comtest on living longest between them I know who i would have placed my money on. One thing more, Boromir was a member of the fellowship and a bigger charater than Haldir, so they had to make his death more worthy of a warrior..<P>One more thing: When you get angry about the changes P.J. has done, imagine that this have happend and P.J. and Tolkien tells the same story, only a little bit diffrent. You does not feel so cheated if you do, belive me...
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Old 01-03-2003, 10:49 AM   #77
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I was rather depressed about the death of Haldir... It was sad. Imagine, your last view of life seeing the bodies of your greatest friends, who had the chance to be immortal...Lying lifeless, slain in a battle that was not your own... Brought tears to my blue eyes...
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Old 01-03-2003, 10:52 AM   #78
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DOES ANYONE ELSE FIND IT DEPRESSING???????
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Old 01-03-2003, 12:58 PM   #79
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The part where the elves come to the aid of Aragorn etc at Helm Deep was the most moving part of the film for me, the bit where Haldir gets killed is the most poignant. I've watched it 8 times now and each time I steel myself for the sound of the horn and Legolas "That's no orc horn". Surely the look on the faces of the Rohans when they turn up is enough! In a dark film it is a warm moment for sure.
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Old 01-03-2003, 03:00 PM   #80
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Oh man, I HATED that Helm's Deep part. Grrr. Oh well. MAN I got so mad when Haldir died! I totally forgot he died in the books. Argh, first Boromir now him!
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