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09-27-2017, 03:12 PM | #1 | |||||||
King's Writer
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6 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië
This is the first draft of the chapter 6 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië.
Our basis text is that of Later Quenta Silmarillion given in HoMe 10 on page 174-179. Were ever the text is different from that this is marked by an editing mark. The markings are: EPE-EX-xx for Eldamar and the Princes of the Edalië, Expansions EPE-SL-xx for Eldamar and the Princes of the Edalië, Story Line Some conventions of my writing: Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned) Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks {example} = text that should be deleted [example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes <source example> = additions with source information example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason /example/ = outline expansion Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next. Quote:
EPE-EX-02: LQ does not tell that the Teleri had first to move to the shore. EPE-EX-03: Again an info only given in AAm. EPE-EX-04: Finwë’s prayer was not in LQ. EPE-EX-05: Interisting, but the kin of Elwë searching form were not in LQ. EPE-EX-06 & EPE-EX-07: The essay ‚Círdan’ and in introduction added. EPE-EX-08: Since we are in the age of the Trees, in Middle-earth all is one long night, therefore we have to change it. EPE-EX-09: This does connect back to the text of LQ were we already have mentioned on of these fractions. EPE-EX-10: Later the Isle is never described in such detail. EPE-EX-11: Again the freindship of Finwë and Elwë are only given in AAm. EPE-EX-12: The farther description of Bay of Eldamar and Tirion up on Tuna was what is wanted here. EPE-EX-13: Here JRR Tolkien later then writing LQ 1 re-wrote QS with a substantially fuller passage that I took. EPE-EX-14: The first of this passage is moved to lead over to the linguistical stuff. And the rest is replaced by it. EPE-EX-15: Here again JRR Tolkien later then writing LQ 1 re-wrote QS with a substantially fuller passage that I took. EPE-SL-01: We want to avoid to give any relation between Valian Years and Years of the Sun. EPE-EX-16: Again a nice description from LT. EPE-EX-17: The Shadowy Seas and the Twilit Isles are at least in the later story line put east of Tol Eresseä and only placed later. EPE-EX-18: In this paragraphs I changed ‚historical presnt’ used often in LT to past tense. EPE-EX-19: The help of the Noldor in building the haven is not mentioned in LT. EPE-EX-20: Here we have the passage from EPE-EX-14 inserted to let to the linguistical stuff. EPE-EX-21: As a fuller replacement for what is told in LQ §41 and §42 I used here what The Shiboleth has to say about the names of the noldor princes. EPE-EX-22: This is to be used in its chronological place. EPE-EX-23: Even so this a pre-telling I think up to this point it is bearable. EPE-EX-24: We have to add the name ‚Aredhel’. EPE-EX-25: This is to be used in its chronological place. EPE-EX-26: In the original text this is told in skiped passage. See EPE-EX-25. EPE-EX-27: I added Celebrimbor. EPE-EX-28: Another snippet from LQ §41 and §42 that would other wise been lost. EPE-EX-29: There was a discussion about the name Elulindo and if we can include it. If we want to do so then here is the right place. EPE-EX-30: Even so the childern of Orodreth are born in Beleriand, I think we should include them here. EPE-EX-31: The name ‚Ereinion’ is not given in this note. EPE-EX-32: LotR specifies Celeborn as Sindar, therefore Teleporno has be removed. EPE-EX-33 & EPE-EX-34: I add here what we know about Nerdanel’s father. EPE-EX-35: VT has these info which is nice to enlarge these outline. EPE-EX-36: Again a snippet from LQ §41 and §42. EPE-EX-376: As we burn Amarthan with the ships of the Teleri, we have to remove him here. EPE-EX-38 & EPE-EX-39: The information who of the Feanorians was married and what we know about Celebrimbor have been put in here. EPE-EX-40: This is the last part of this chapter in LQ. I found it very much fitting as addition here to give some more substance to the thin passage about the Feanorians. Respecfully Findegil |
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09-27-2017, 05:50 PM | #2 |
Quentingolmo
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Before I reply to each change, as a general rule: Ñoldor > Noldor. This is the form we are using, as this is meant to be written in the Third Age by Bilbo, who would have used the Exilic Ñ > N change (as well as K > C) and thus should only be used when discussing the etymology or linguistics of it.
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09-28-2017, 12:14 AM | #3 | ||||||||
Quentingolmo
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Here are my comments. This was another great draft, Fin, and I do not have too many comments. Anything I do not mention I agree to.
EPE-EX-10: Why change twice to once? The island has been used to ferry the Vanyar and Noldor to Valinor, and then is brought back to ferry the Teleri. it is thus exposed to the light of the trees twice. EPE-EX-12.1: In the phrase "bay of Arvalin" you changed it to "Avathar." In the old conception of the beginning of the Lost Tales, Arvalin was a catch-all name for what would become both Avathar and Araman, and thus the bay was right in the middle. As Avathar is only to the south of the bay, I think this change shouldtus be to "Elvenhome" or "Elende," as Avathar is not really accurate. EPE-EX-12.2: In the next paragraph, There are two instances of the name "Silpion" that need to be changed to "Telperion." In addition, in this section: Quote:
EPE-EX-12.3: Where the Lost Tales insertion returns to the QS text, because the city has just been described, a "Thus" is need to smooth the transition. I know we dont change for reasons of style, but we make this exception in order to transition between insert and base text. EPE-EX-16: this may be considered too purely stylistic, but I was wondering if we could change "beyond their anchorage {you reach}[are reached] the Magic Isles,". In the original version, someone is telling this story to Eriol, thus the you. EPE-EX-16.1: In the concluding bit: Quote:
EPE-EX-16.2: Further on we have: Quote:
EPE-EX-21: I could not find your marker for 21, so I used the number for my comment. In this bit in the Names section: Quote:
EPE-EX-21.1: For {Þerinde}[Serindë] why? Would it not be better to include the main text of the Shibboleth about the tension between Feanor and Fingolfin bc of his shibboleth? EPE-EX-21.2: Right before marker 22, it says "as in Curufim" with a direction that this will be addressed later. However, the word Curufim is not mentioned again, although the fim > fin issue is. should this remain as is? EPE-EX-23: I see that this cannot be used here, but it should be used in the Ruin of Beleriand chapter. EPE-EX-23.1: in the footnote: Quote:
Quote:
EPE-EX-29: I would say he could be included, but the editorial addition should be different, as this does not work. Maybe just (such as Elulindo) instead of "as" EPE-EX-31.1: In this sentence: Quote:
EPE-EX-32.1: All the additions about Nerdanel's father here have been added into the DoV chapter, but they fit much better here. Thus we must be sure to remove them from the DoV draft. EPE-EX-32.5: Another footnote is added right after Urundil 'copper-lover': Quote:
That is everything I saw! It is so good to have this chapter added to my drafts, I have been excited to see how it would turn out! Last edited by ArcusCalion; 09-28-2017 at 12:17 AM. |
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09-28-2017, 05:21 PM | #4 |
King's Writer
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[{Ñoldor}[Noldor]: Agreed. We discussed that before, I just didn’t found the time to make that change effective in my drafts, because every instant is to be checked with the original source. I will do sooner or later.
EPE-EX-10: It has at this time be use to ferry the Vanyar and Noldor together and is know when coming back from Beleriand routed in the Bay of Eldamar, where its newly exposition to the light of the Trees differently from the first one, since it is farther away from the shore and that is described a few lines later. In the LT version Vanyar (their named Teleri) and Noldor were transported seperatly, therefore ‘two-times’ was right in that tale, but is wrong in our version. EPE-EX-12.1: Agreed, I did only made the regular change with out any farther thought. But I would take ‘Eldamar’ as a replacement, since that seems to be the more regulary used name for the Bay. EPE-EX-12.2: I agree on {magic}[marvellous]. But Silpion is still a valid name of the Tree. I have observed your trend to rename it in any instant, but I dout that this is necessary. EPE-EX-12.3: Agreed. EPE-EX-16: Your reasoning is good and I don’t think it is stylistic. It is rather due to the story line change we did introduce, so I will call it EPE-SL-02. EPE-EX-16.1: You are right, in a way, but even in the old geography Arvalin was in the north and in the south touching the Shadowy Sea. So as it stood the text gave the infromtion only of the southern himispher and so does it as I changed it. What is the issue with that? I agree to change {Arvalin}[Avathar and Araman] if it is fitting. EPE-EX-16.2: Shiboleth is the later source so ‘Ingwi’ it should be. EPE-EX-21 Is the beginning of the section taken from the Shibboleth, right before that title. So we should refer to your comment about the Sindarin names of the Valar as EPE-EX-21.05: To have Sindarin names applied to the Valar does not render this passage untrue since they could have been invented by the Noldor after they adopted Sindarin as their dayly speech. I agree that we have to eliminate ‘(recalling the sound of his great horn)’ since that is contradicted by the story we have given at his arrival by the Elves. For the rest I am in doubt here. Could you provide the source for these names, please? EPE-EX-21.1: We might include the full text, but probably not here. As yet it was forseen as a part of volume 3 (or not?). But even if we think it should be taken earlier, this place is too early, since all the names given here are given in a preview. EPE-EX-21.2: I think it can stand because the footnote dose sguide the reader to the right place to look for the explaination, even so ‘Curufim’ is not mentioned. EPE-EX-23: Agreed. EPE-EX-23.1: I disagree to this. We discussed this before when editing the ‘Ælfwine and Dírhavel’ text for the introduction of the ‘Narn’. We produce a text in English for English readers. It is not supposed to have any Middel-earth existence as such, since we aknowledge that it is a compilation of us from different sources. So even if we remove Ælfwine and his references to Anglosaxon, we may nonetheless keep comparisions to English or German of today. EPE-EX-23.2: That is a reference to another footnote. But as it stands it can only be filled with sensefull information when the text is in final editing. Alternatively we could remove it. EPE-EX-29: Agreed. EPE-EX-31.1: Good question. This is asking for in indept research if ‘Maiar’ was used in later texts and if ‘Máyar’ was used in any other place. Anybody with some time at hand, for such an endeavour? EPE-EX-32.1: Agreed. EPE-EX-32.5: Okay, I mist that. We will reinstall it. EPE-EX-34.1: Okay, that was an artefact of a time when we called him ‘Maedron’. Since we came in the end back to ‘Maedros’, we can let this stand. Respectfully Findegil |
09-29-2017, 10:39 AM | #5 | ||
Quentingolmo
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Everything I do not respond to I agree with.
EPE-EX-021.05: If the Noldor simply made Sindarin versions of their names then that would contradict what is said a sentence before the excerpt I gave: Quote:
Ulmo = I could not find a source for these names, but he is given others in the Etymologies. Aule = I actually cannot find a source for his, but I found other names in the Etymologies. Yavanna = This name comes from the Etymologies, but is attested in the latest of writings, in "Of Lembas" in the compound: Ivonwin: Maidens of Yavanna, as well as the Sindarin name for the month of Yavannie: Ivanneth. Mandos = This name comes from the Etymologies as the Sindarin equivalent. Lorien = This name comes from an early essay on the Gnomish language found in Parma Eldalamberon. Este = This name comes from Quendi and the Eldar in the Note on the Language of the Valar. Tulkas = This name is from the Gnomish Lexicon, so it is quite old. Vaire = This name comes from the Etymologies Nessa = This name comes from the Etymologies Of course, many of these names are not sourced from up-to-date texts, but the fact that the name of Yavanna occurs in a very very late writing and in the Lord of the Rings itself, along with the logical error that they would have no name for Ulmo, and the fact that Este is given a name in the late writing of Quendi and the Eldar all point to the fact that Tolkien had forgotten some facts about what he had published or what he had in mind changed back to its original state. Thus, since this passage clearly cannot be said to be true, I suggest we revise it. Here is my suggestion: Quote:
EPE-EX-23.2: why was this reference needed? was it given in the base text? Either way I would remove it, as we have no other instances of this type of thing. EPE-EX-3.1: All I could find was its use in a footnote (also in Shibboleth) but nowhere else in the HoME texts. I do not own Vinyar Tengwar or Parma Eldalamberon, so I cannot search those documents to see if they contain it. However, I would stick to Maiar if no actual etymology can be found for the later form,as Maiar has a developed etymology, and a clear meaning, whereas the later form is ambiguous. |
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09-29-2017, 05:19 PM | #6 | |
King's Writer
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EPE-EX-21.05: I agree that we have to change it. What about:
Quote:
EPE-EX-31.1: For the time being we should change it to 'Maiar'. If some other informations comes up, we are any time free to revise back to Máyar. Respectfully Findegil |
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09-29-2017, 06:08 PM | #7 |
Quentingolmo
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EPE-EX-21.05: I would use "especially" instead of "as". This flows better, and holds the meaning of the original more I think.
EPE-EX-23.2: I would recommend deleting it. EPE-EX-31.1: sounds good. |
09-29-2017, 07:03 PM | #8 | |
King's Writer
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EPE-EX-21.05: Agreed.
EPE-EX-23.2: Again, in the finished text it would amount to not more then two times the same reference number attached to two places in the text. Therefore I do not seen any good reason to skip it. At the time being I would change it to Quote:
Findegil |
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09-29-2017, 07:35 PM | #9 |
Quentingolmo
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very well, it seems we are agreed on all points.
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10-02-2017, 07:17 AM | #10 |
Quentingolmo
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I was actually wondering, should Celeborn be inserted into the story at this point? with a note about Elmo and the rest of the family tree?
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10-02-2017, 09:08 PM | #11 | |||||
Wight
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Quote:
Quote:
EPE-EX-07: I really like the inclusion of the Cirdan material here. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
This chapter is another amazing amalgamation of Tolkien's works; great work! Last edited by gandalf85; 10-02-2017 at 09:12 PM. |
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10-03-2017, 04:21 AM | #12 | |
King's Writer
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EPE-EX-01: Agreed.
EPE-EX-0: Agreed as well. I would rather call that a minimal change for reasons of gramatical awakwardness. {Solosimpi}[Teleri] is a general change and was therefore not dokumented in this place in detail. Baout Ossë teaching the Teleri about ship building: We here that albeit Círdan thought otherwise his craft was by no means developed far enough to yield a ship fit for the crossing of Belegaer. And I would say this he is reported to be the most skilled in that craft that his was true for the Teleri upon Tol Eressea as well. So the help of Ossë was needed. Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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11-06-2017, 01:24 PM | #13 | |
King's Writer
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As I found no place to put this in Valinor and the Two Trees, I think we should use it in this chapter:
Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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11-06-2017, 03:21 PM | #14 |
Quentingolmo
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While I agree that if it is to be placed in the story, it fits well here, were we not planning to include it in Volume III as a standalone essay?
EPE-EX-12.5: I understand your reasoning for removing this,but since Men are mentioned at times in these early chapters, I think it is a permissible "flash-forward"if we could even call it that. It is simply a statement of fact about Men, and as this was written by Pengolodh,he would be familiar with Men,and expected his readers to be as well. I do not think we need to remove it. EPE-EX-12.6: Why remove this? Since we have removed all notation of the chronology, we do not know how long the Elves remained in Aman, and so we do not know that 3000 years did not pass. Besides this fact, this is a general statement, not a statement of specific future events, and so I see no reason to remove it. |
11-07-2017, 12:01 PM | #15 |
King's Writer
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If the essay should be split and be placed here and in volume 2 or entirely volume 3 can be discussed. I would prefer to have the appropriate parts near to the narrative.
EPE-EX-12.5: I removed this because it seems to me to refer to the 12 x 12 mortal years = 144 Years of the Sun = 1 Valian Year. which we decided not include. EPE-EX-12.6: What this says is that Elves grow from child to adult in 3000 years of the Sun. This is in no way compatible with our chronology. Exiles born in Middle-earth in the first years of the First Age would only be in an age to fight sometime around the 2nd millennium of the Second Age! Therefore I think this must be ruled out as a proposed changed that we cannot in-cooperate in our version. Respectfully Findegil |
11-08-2017, 05:27 PM | #16 |
Quentingolmo
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EPE-EX-12.5: I do not think it is explicit enough to warrant a deletion, but I suppose there is no real harm.
EPE-EX-12.6: Ah, I was not thinking. I agree. On a side not, are you taking up the heading "Aman" as well for a subheading in the chapter? Personally, I am against its inclusion here. It is told from the point of view of a Man discussing the nature of Aman. Thus, the Eldar are referenced in the third person, and terms such as "we must not forget that..." Overall, it is a philosophical musing of someone who has never been to Aman about what it is like in its nature. I am more inclined to keep it separate. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 11-08-2017 at 05:35 PM. |
11-10-2017, 12:57 PM | #17 |
King's Writer
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About the heading: Yes, I would take it as a sub-heading in this chapter. For the second part in volume 2 I would use “Aman and mortal Men” as a full heading, under which I would include as well the parts of the Akallabeth telling of the desire of the Númenoreans for eternal life, the message of the Valar and the reaction of the Numenoreans. It would be placed between Of the Rings of Power telling of the war in Eregion and the War in Eriador and Tal-Elmar which includes the part of the Akallabeth telling about the division of the Numenoreans and their starting to make permanent lordships in Middle-earth.
Respectfully Findegil |
11-10-2017, 02:16 PM | #18 | ||
Quentingolmo
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I agree that that'd be a good place to put Aman and Mortal Men, since the Akallabeth is written by a Man and not an Elf. However, if this part is to be inserted into the Quenta Silmarillion, I think we must change one more thing:
Quote:
Also, this is a point I was unsure of, but at the end: Quote:
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11-11-2017, 06:52 PM | #19 |
King's Writer
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EPE-EX-12.45: This is a possibility. But on the other hand it is clear that our text has been handled by other then the original author. So we could assume this to be a inclusion by some such. I would like to have here the input of others.
The same is true for your second point. So here I think that at the middle of the Second Age, when Pengolodh left Middle-earth the fading was already observable. Respectfully Findegil |
11-11-2017, 08:29 PM | #20 |
Late Istar
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I'm holding off on commenting on any of this until I can give my full attention to this chapter. However, I will say I'm somewhat disinclined to use 'Aman' here. It strikes me much more as commentary on the story than as something to be used in a narrative.
But I will look at this in detail when we turn our attention back to this chapter. |
11-12-2017, 05:47 AM | #21 |
King's Writer
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That was what I expacted. My message was not to promot you to this, but to make clear that I think more opinions are needed.
Respectfully Findegil |
12-03-2017, 08:34 PM | #22 | ||||
Quentingolmo
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We had discussed the question of the word "Máyar" and I have just found this in Words, Phrases, and Passages:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Sidenote: There is this sentence in the entry on "Calacirya" Quote:
Last edited by ArcusCalion; 12-03-2017 at 09:41 PM. |
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12-04-2017, 11:30 PM | #23 |
King's Writer
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Nice find!
I at least for an inclusion od that detail. Respectfully Findegil |
12-05-2017, 01:13 AM | #24 | |
Quentingolmo
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How about:
Quote:
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12-05-2017, 09:58 AM | #25 |
Wight
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Quote:
Many jewels were embedded in the rocks of its walls. I have now a dude with this sentence. Possibly is because my understanding/interpretation of English. Refers that the jewels were embedded by someone after the making of the Calacirya or refers that the jewels were embedded say, geologically, and can see after the making of the pass? I always thought that was the second option. Greetings |
12-05-2017, 10:05 AM | #26 |
Quentingolmo
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Gems are not mentioned until this paragraph, and it is said that they were first discovered by the Noldor by digging in the earth. If they were naturally embedded in the walls of the Calacirya, they would have discovered them immediately. Therefore they must be manually embedded.
As far as the English goes, the sentence itself does not specify. It could mean they were there, or that they were put there. |
12-05-2017, 10:49 AM | #27 |
Wight
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Ok, thats fine, thank you.
One thing I had not noticed before. In EPE-EX-13{In Valinor they first contrived .... were enriched.}<QS rewritten And in all crafts of hand they delighted also; .... and the halls of the {Gods}[Valar] in Valinor were enriched. would it be not better to include the passage of AAm year 1149 mixed with the account of LQ? Greetings |
12-06-2017, 02:28 PM | #28 |
King's Writer
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Well, I am not that sure that the gems were not 'naturally' embeded in the walls. Since Gems were no longer invented by the Noldor, It is more then possible that Aule when building the Calacirya placed the Gems just below surface so that when the Noldor learned how to read the signs where to find Gems they diged a bit here and there and freed the Gems but let them be where they were.
Respectfully Findegil |
12-06-2017, 03:03 PM | #29 |
Wight
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Well, I suppose that we must make differwnces between gems as raw and jewels as worked pieces.
Greetings |
12-06-2017, 04:08 PM | #30 |
Quentingolmo
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To be honest, I think the passage as I inserted it leaves things ambiguous enough that both readings are possible
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12-09-2017, 06:34 PM | #31 |
King's Writer
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Yes, true. I was not arguing for any diffrent editing, I just gave my oppinion about the matter.
Respectfully Findegil |
02-06-2018, 12:38 AM | #32 | ||
Quentingolmo
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Found a tiny tidbit again, in the VT41 notes on the Shibboleth:
Quote:
Quote:
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02-13-2018, 08:28 AM | #33 | |
King's Writer
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Okay, I have taken up EPE-EX-34.5 and following gondowe's wish I have looked up the passage corrosponding to AAm year 1149 and would add to it thus (only EPE-EX-04.5 is new):
Quote:
Findegil |
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05-30-2018, 02:26 PM | #34 | |
Quentingolmo
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From the note on Belfalas we were just discussing in Of the Rings of Power, I thought we might add in this footnote onto the end of one of the footnotes in this chapter about Cirdan:
Quote:
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05-30-2018, 02:39 PM | #35 |
King's Writer
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Agreed.
Respectfully Findegil |
05-30-2018, 03:16 PM | #36 | |
Quentingolmo
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I forgot to include this in the last post, but I also found another addition from the Lost Tales (very small). I placed it immediately after EPE-EX-13.5:
Quote:
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05-31-2018, 03:09 PM | #37 |
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EPE-EX-13.7: Agreed. Good finding.
Respectfully Findegil |
09-20-2024, 02:30 AM | #38 | |
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So...apparently, the new issue of Parma Eldalamberon (PE 23) gives us the name of Teleporno's father: Gilitīro (in Telerin) or Gildír (sindarinized).
The reason I mentioned 'Teleporno' and not 'Celeborn' was that in this conception he was an Elf of Aman - however, I don't know if this was the conception where Celeborn was a grandson of Olwe or not. If Celeborn was here meant as a grandson of Olwe, that would mean that Gilitiro/Gildir was one of Olwe's sons; and even though this project treats Celeborn as a Sinda descended from Elmo, I think having a name for one of the sons of Olwe would be great. Mind you, I don't actually possess PE 23 at the moment but the information above comes from a source I trust a lot.
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09-24-2024, 03:00 AM | #39 |
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Teleporno being the son of Gilitiro and Teleporono being the grandson of Olwe, does not necessarily mean that Gilitiro is the son of Olwe. Gilitiro could as well be the husband of an unamed daughter of Olwe.
For that matter, as a "combiner" to the core you could even argue that Gilitiro could be still a son of Elmo, thus making Teleprono a desendent of Elmo and a grandson of Olwe. Not that I say that is how it was. But to say Gilitiro is a son of Olwe is to bold a statement in view of what we know. Respectfully Findegil |
09-24-2024, 12:50 PM | #40 | |||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 353
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