Trade and traderoutes in M-E

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Drawing off a trend in the thread Elves and Gondor,
there seem to be a number of goods/resources calling for
significant trade, and even movement of traders which in a
way echoes the Silk Route across Asia to the Middle-east.
Specialist wines (and there seems to be no reason this would
be limited to the wine of Dorwinion). Consider also tobacco, fine horses
for both carrying goods and riding (a prime resource for Rohan, with
the Rohirrim probably not be averse to trading a surplus of horses to
allies and friendly peoples- including Beornings), dwarf armor and
non military equipment. There would seem to be the basis for significant
trade, and if the economic return was high enough there would
always be people willing to dare trade routes, even across
South Rhovannion. Not unlike the Italian city states, they could charge
exorbitant prices partly because of the danger and scarcity.

Recall that elves, certainly in Rivendell, used horses. Surely they'd want to
have the best available (in Rohan- perhaps using Gondor as a middle-man
given Rohan's rather insular outlook). The Greenway would seem ideal
for pack animals and fast scout horses. And surely fast and war horses would
have been needed by Gondor when guarding the eastern and southern
approaches to Mordor when they were guarding the area.

Given that Tolkien noted in Letters that people were requesting more
information on various topics, and that obviously not everything can, or
should, be included in an adventure tale how much of a believable
economics and geography of trade routes can be fairly constructed?

One, I think, could involve tobacco, apparently overwhelmingly the best
being grown in the Shire, but used by at least Northern men and dwarves.
There could be a rather thriving trade across the East-West Road (when
orc and other harassment was contained) of Dwarf iron creations, hobbit
tobacco and food, men's food, cloth, and perhaps wine (by Dunedain
in the angle and Laketown?). With perhaps Elrond cutting some nice
middle-man deals at Rivendell's Friendly Trading Imporium Outlet
(somewhere on the road, not in Rivendell, of course ). On this route
sturdy ponies like Tom Bombadil's would probably be most useful.

[Mithalwen]

I don't think that there would have been much direct contact in latter days between Gondor and Rivendell. Faramir had clearly never seen an elf when he met Frodo and only Denethor had much of a clue where to find Imladris.

If there were any Elf/Gondor interaction my guess would be by ship between Dol Amroth and Lindon. I think the Elves would have had a tradition of horse breeding but I guess that Gondor would have traded extensively with Rohan in later days since they didn't have a strong tradition of using riding horses - I think UT refers to them lacking enough horses capable of carrying men of Numenorean stature.

[Rumil]

Hi Tuor and Mith,

Agree that the East-West Dorwinion-Erebor-Lindon traderoute was significant, North-South there seems to be very little evidence, apart from Shire-Orthanc under Saruman, doesn't mean that it didn't happen however.

I think one plausible mechanism is one that's been proposed for bronze-age Europe, where occasional Greek artefacts turn up in Britain etc. This is the chain of trade, so for example an item made in the Shire could be sold by a hobbit in Bree, picked up as a curiosity by a trader at the Prancing Pony, stolen by the Dunlendings, given as tribute to Saruman, sold on to a Rohirric trader by one of Saruman's agents, who throws it in as a sweetener for a horse deal with a Gondorian, who sells it in the market at Minas Tirith to a noble who thinks its amusing, who notices the Steward looking at it and gifts it to the Steward as an outlandish curiosity.

Hey presto - Denethor with an Umbrella

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Hi Tuor and Mith,

Agree that the East-West Dorwinion-Erebor-Lindon traderoute was significant, North-South there seems to be very little evidence, apart from Shire-Orthanc under Saruman, doesn't mean that it didn't happen however.

I think one plausible mechanism is one that's been proposed for bronze-age Europe, where occasional Greek artefacts turn up in Britain etc. This is the chain of trade, so for example an item made in the Shire could be sold by a hobbit in Bree, picked up as a curiosity by a trader at the Prancing Pony, stolen by the Dunlendings, given as tribute to Saruman, sold on to a Rohirric trader by one of Saruman's agents, who throws it in as a sweetener for a horse deal with a Gondorian, who sells it in the market at Minas Tirith to a noble who thinks its amusing, who notices the Steward looking at it and gifts it to the Steward as an outlandish curiosity.

Hey presto - Denethor with an Umbrella

Quite possible. It suprising how far those trade chains (often more like a web than a single chain) can reach. To use an example I am familar with from history (please forgive my little digression). One of the hot items in Alexandria, Egypt from the late Hellenistic to early Roman periods (say about 100BC to AD100) were glass mosaic picture canes and beads made thereof (what we now usually call "millefiori") of great complexity (so complex in fact, that it is only in this century that glassmakers (and then only those who do one of a kind "art glass work" of the kind that can fetch several hundred dollars a bead) have been able to replicate what appaer to have been basic "meat and potatoes" level" canes of the period). As these were really popular as a trade item (durable, took up little space and had an enormous size to value ratio) they tended to go really far in trade to the point where it is possilbe to find beads or raw cane chunks (both were trade items) taken from the same cane, not the same design the same ACTUAL cane (Without getting too, technical a mosaic cane is a bit like a a stick of "cut rock" candy or slice and bake cookies the design runs through the whole thing and so if you take slices or chunks off of it the degin is on each one ) from as far apart as a Frankish burial site and a tomb in the middle of India.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Remember Aragorn's assertion that boats used to travel south out of Wilderland down to Osgiliath, until only a few years before the War of the Ring. They must have been used for trade between Gondor and at least the men of the Anduin vale above the Gladden Fields - the Woodmen and the Beornings.

And it's certain that this North/South trade would cross over the Lindon - Bree - Beornings - Woodland Realm - Erebor - Esgaroth - Iron Hills - Dorwinion trade route.

[Rumil]

Hi Mouth,

interesting that, as you might think Dol Guldur controlled the river, or at least dsisputed it with Galadriel.

However it does fit that after the White Council booted Sauron out (seemingly), the evil activities would die down until a few years before LoTR, when big S re-occupied with sevenfold strength, and presumably by then didn't care who knew it!

So there's some boating connection between Rohan and Gondor on the one hand and Beornings and Woodmen on the other in between the 2940s and the 3010s. Possibly beforehand as well depending on how secretive Sauron was feeling? Agree that its likely to tie into the East West trade via this route as well.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, as to what's been said about Elves - personally, I don't think the Elves in Rivendell actively participated in any trade that much, except maybe in some fine equipment. But the economy of the Elves, especially of the likes of Rivendell who seem to do nothing than wander around the woods and sing and yet they seem economically pretty self-sufficient, is an interesting question by itself (I've already been debating on that subject once with a fellow 'Downer).

***

Just for the sake of completion I will copypaste here what I said about the major trade routes on the abovementioned thread, concerning the possibilities of trade between Erebor and Gondor:

...actually, curious, isn't it, just from the economic point of view: it would make sense for the Gondorians to actually maintain contact with Erebor, and the Northernmen in Dale and Lake-Town (as in old times anyway). It would be nice to have a route around the eastern borders of Mirkwood. But alas, such journey was probably impossible by the end of the Third Age, as the threat would be far too big. Easterlings and Dol Guldur - not a nice view. The only ones who would come to Erebor from south would be the messengers of Sauron... just as they did.

But it makes a lot more sense, in the light of this, that there were basically only two major trade routes in M-E, that is the west-east one from let's say Lindon to Erebor and the other NW-SE from Lindon as far as Gondor. And now it is clear to me at last why they form this sort of "incomplete triangle": as the third part of the triangle, i.e. Gondor-Erebor, just wouldn't work now.

Adding to this: I believe most of the prized goods were consumed in the close parts, though of course the important things continued further (with exceeding prices). By the time of Bilbo's journey, Thranduil's halls were probably the furthest stop for Dorwinion wine. After the fall of the Dragon, it could have become a more spread commodity.

That brings me to think, by the way, once again how important economically the year of the Dragon's fall was. The Kingdom under the Mountain was reestablished, the goblins were diminished, the path through all the Mirkwood was renewed and the way to Eriador was open, which was just something tremendous. Actually, at that time the East (Dale and Erebor) was far more economically prosperring than the West, which suddenly fell in the rank as total wilderness (if Arnor had been there still, things would have been different).

[Mithalwen]

I think that it should be remembered that the elvish communities were fairly small at the end of the third age. I think Tolkien said that there were more sindarin speakers in Gondor - though I think that excluded Mirkwood. After the Last Alliance most of the Noldor removed to Rivendell which was a household not a realm - Elrond is Master of the household not a King (though technically he would be one, I imagine the population was small enough to make using the title ridiculous). Obviously a household is a larger entity in this sense than modern usage (cf Eomer's eored being men of his own household) but I think we are talking hundreds and possible not many of them. Nevertheless the small and steep landscape of Rivendell would be hard pressed to support even this amount completely. It is possible that the small surviving Dunedain community farmed in the Angle and were able to supply some of Rivendell's wants.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

That brings me to think, by the way, once again how important economically the year of the Dragon's fall was. The Kingdom under the Mountain was reestablished, the goblins were diminished, the path through all the Mirkwood was renewed and the way to Eriador was open, which was just something tremendous. Actually, at that time the East (Dale and Erebor) was far more economically prosperring than the West, which suddenly fell in the rank as total wilderness (if Arnor had been there still, things would have been different).

Lots of good points made on this interesting topic.
Overall, it seems to me that at the Time of the War of the Ring, it was indeed the lands east of the Misty Mountains which saw the most commercial trade among different communities, but it seems that the trading partners were mostly geographically fairly near one another.
The Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain, Men of Dale, and Elves of Mirkwood certainly had a thriving commerce together, and the Dwarves of the Iron Hills were probably in on it as well.
Lórien appears to be almost entirely self-sufficient, with what trade they did have most likely being with Rivendell.
Gondor and Rohan would have mainly conducted trade business with one another, as has been said, with the Rohirrim trading horses for things such as weapons and armour.
In Eridaor, the only likely permanent trade partners would have been the Shire and Bree.
Travellers through those areas using the East-West Road would have bought food and pipe-weed there, but no active exportation by the hobbits seems to have been conducted beyond that, not even with the Rangers or Dwarves of the Blue Mountains. Merry was quite surprised at the sight of the Hornblower pipe-weed at Isengard, saying he hadn't known it 'went so far abroad'.
Knowing the Rangers, they might have grown some pipe-weed themselves for their own uses, and probably knew places where it grew in the wild.
Arnor seems to have been the centre of any large scale trade between Eriador and the South. Once it was no more, commercial intercourse between the regions appears to have been almost nil.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Another trade route to consider, though it's largely speculative,
would be from Pelargir or Osgiliath south. This is the sort of trade
which (at least minimully) might be kept open all through the Third
Age, and be especially important at the height of Gondor's influence
in the Third and Fourth Ages. The basic trade routes might be The
Harad Road and by sea (especially when South Gondor was under
Gondor control but even at times of relative peace by the Corsairs).
Perusing Karen Fonstad's Atlas it's at least interesting as an
insight into Tolkien's thinking that (see pps. 38-39 and 52-53)
that Far Harad and south bear a similarity to Africa. Since oliphaunts
were thriving there why not other exotic animals that an imperial
Gondor, not unlike imperial Rome, would be interested in.
Wonder what Sam would think of a giraffe or even a saber-toothed
tiger ).
Southrons and such might be interested in turn in fine armor,
tobacco, and rare wines.

About the Legate's comments. You might be underestimating the
importance of the dwarves in the Blue Mountains. Wasn't it said they
regularly traversed the Shire? Who were they trading with?
But the areas east of the Misty Mountains do seem to be increasing in
population and importance. The Beornings and the woodsmen were
growing and spreading even in The Hobbit.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

About the Legate's comments. You might be underestimating the
importance of the dwarves in the Blue Mountains. Wasn't it said they
regularly traversed the Shire? Who were they trading with?

Would the occasional party of Dwarves passing through the Shire really constitute a trade presence? Looks to me more likely the Dwarves only bought whatever provisions they needed for their journeys, as the Shire and Bree didn't seem to have much need or want for what the Dwarves could offer in trade: arms, armour, and precious stones.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Oops. Double posted.