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Old 06-01-2002, 11:38 PM   #1
Maédhros
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Sting Elwë's and Olwë's Indisposition

Why were the Teleri's kings indisposed to help their "friends" the Noldor.
First Olwë refuses to grant passage to their friends the Noldor to ME and then Elwë refuses the Noldorian princes access to his kindom in ME save the sons of his kin Finarfin.
Elwë was supposed to be the "best friend" of Finwë, yet he offers no help to his sons.
Olwë's refusal was before the kinslaying and Elwë's refusal was before he had knowledge of the Kinslaying.
What's wrong with these people.
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Old 06-02-2002, 01:17 AM   #2
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of the flight of the noldor, silmarillion

But the Teleri were unmoved by aught that he could say. They were grieved indeed at the going of their kinsfolk and long friends, but would rather dissuade them than aid them; and no ship would they lend, nor help in the building, against the will of the Valar. As for themselves, they desired now no other home but the strands of Eldamar, and no other lord than Olwë, prince of Alqualondë. And he had never lent ear to Morgoth, nor welcomed him to his land, and he trusted still that Ulmo and the other great among the Valar would redress the hurts of Morgoth, and that the night would pass yet to a new dawn. Then Fëanor grew wrathful, for he still feared delay; and hotly he spoke to Olwë. 'You renounce your friendship, even in the hour of our need,' he said. 'Yet you were glad indeed to receive our aid when you came at last to these shores, fainthearted loiterers, and wellnigh emptyhanded. In huts on the beaches would yon be dwelling still, had not the Noldor carved out your haven and toiled upon your walls.'
But Olwë answered: 'We renounce no friendship. But it may be the part of a friend to rebuke a friend's folly. And when the Noldor welcomed us and gave us aid, otherwise then you spoke: in the land of Aman we were to dwell for ever, as brothers whose houses stand side by side. But as for our white ships: those you gave us not. We learned not that craft from the Noldor, but from the Lords of the Sea; and the white timbers we wrought with our own hands, and the white sails were woven by our wives and our daughters. Therefore we will neither give them nor sell them for any league or friendship. For I say to you, Fëanor son of Finwë, these are to us as are the gems of the Noldor: the work of our hearts, whose like we shall not make again.'
it seems to me olwe was concerned for the noldor and hoped against hope they may come to reason....the valar had ever looked out for the firstborn and olwe was not as hasty to turn against them...the refusal of his ships may also have been his subtle way of showing feanor how arrogant and uncooperative his refusal of the silmarils to the valar was.....
olwe's reaction seems a reasonable one to me, trying to keep his friends from what he feared would be a dark path....

Quote:
of the return of the noldor, silmarillion

Now King Thingol welcomed not with a full heart the coming of so many princes in might out of the West, eager for new realms; and he would not open his kingdom, nor remove its girdle of enchantment, for wise with the wisdom of Melian he trusted not that the restraint of Morgoth would endure. Alone of the princes of the Noldor those of Finarfin's house were suffered to pass within the confines of Doriath; for they could claim close kinship with King Thingol himself, since their mother was Eärwen of Alqualondë, Olwë's daughter.
why elwe would not grant finwe's kin entry i'm not sure....one would definitely assume he would welcome the sons of his friend....
on the other hand i assume he had become somewhat of a recluse in his kingdom of doriath, hiding behind melian's girdle all this time...so he may have felt too distanced from the noldor and would only grant passage to close family....
perhaps melian being maia may have also felt what she did not know of the kinslaying....this being of course speculation...she may have advised elwe against letting finwe's kin enter....
elwe however also doesn't strike me as the most congenial of elven lords, his treatment of beren, while he of course was not of the eldar, doesn't make him out to be someone easily gotten along with...
so even though we as readers know the noldor were in the wrong, seeing as elwe had no message of the kinslayings, his reaction is harder to understand than olwe's...

twinkle
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Old 06-02-2002, 04:16 AM   #3
Daniel Telcontar
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Sting

Elwe was married to Melian, and she knew that something was wrong. So it was her that made Elwe forbid the Noldorne in his kingdom, since she knew that the Noldorne hadn't been totally straight. Melian says herself that the Noldorne appears to be messengers of the Valar, yet they carry no message from them. Elwe at least allowed Finrod and Galadriel into Doriath because they were his kin.
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Old 06-02-2002, 09:08 AM   #4
Maédhros
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Sting

Quote:
olwe's reaction seems a reasonable one to me, trying to keep his friends from what he feared would be a dark path....
In a way, i agree with that. He chose the valar instead of his friends. I would have recommended that the Teleri would offer their ships as a Ferry system to carry the Noldor to ME, such as they did in the War of Wrath.
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why elwe would not grant finwe's kin entry i'm not sure....one would definitely assume he would welcome the sons of his friend....
I think you're right. Elwe was an arrogant king.
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Elwe at least allowed Finrod and Galadriel into Doriath because they were his kin.
This is just plain despicable. What about the benefit of the doubt. Face it, Elwe was jealous of the coming of so many princes from Valinor, eager for new kingdoms.
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Old 06-02-2002, 09:45 AM   #5
Daniel Telcontar
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Elwe just wanted to protect his people. He knew Morgoth had come to Beleriand because of the Noldorne, and to him it seemed that if the Noldorne did not enter his realm, his people would not be endangered. Although Elwe was not the best king, he did what he thought was best for his people. And it is not despicable that he only allowed his kin into his realm. He did not know the consequence if he allowed the Noldorne in his kingdom.
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Old 06-02-2002, 05:50 PM   #6
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Sting

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He knew Morgoth had come to Beleriand because of the Noldorne
Hmmmm. And i thought that it was the other way around.
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And it is not despicable that he only allowed his kin into his realm. He did not know the consequence if he allowed the Noldorne in his kingdom.
He didn't even have the courtesy of speaking with neither Fingolfin or Maedhros. Was that very much to ask?
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Old 06-04-2002, 02:37 PM   #7
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I must agree with those who have stated that Elwe was a proud and arrogant king. The fact that he would not even hold counsel with the Noldor not of his kin shows this. He had grown to be the most powerful elf in Middle Earth, and I think he wanted things to stay that way. Elwe saw the princes of the Noldor as a threat to his kingdom. Not that they would wage war on him and take his kingdom, but that maybe his people may be drawn to them. Elwe, alone of all elves remaining in Middle Earth, had seen the light of the two trees. He probably felt that these princes, who grew and thrived in the shadow of the trees and had the light of Aman in their faces, would have great strength, knowledge, skill, lore. Elwe may have feared that he might look diminished and weak when compared to the newcomers. And we know the princes, at least Feanor's sons, would have treated him this way, as one of lesser stature. It's a far-fetched theory, I know, but I think it makes a little sense.
I feel there were other issues as well. Elwe was usually swayed (and rightly so) by the wisdom and foresight of Melian and she knew that the coming of the Noldor brought dismal tidings for all of Middle Earth.
It is strange how Elwe's actions seem to follow Morgoth's intent of keeping the elves sundered from one another, even though Morgoth had not yet been able to poison Doriath.
As for Olwe, I'm not sure I understand him either. Although, I do like Twinkle's theory that Olwe tried to hinder the journey out of friendship, and not out of pride or anger. But, I also think that even asking Olwe to "loan" the Noldor his ships would be like asking Feanor if you could borrow his simarils. Feanor would not have given those up even if it meant that the light of the two trees would never be restored. Olwe would not give up his ships, even though it severed his friendship with the Noldor.
Well, those are my thoughts on yet another great topic brought up by Maedhros!
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Old 06-04-2002, 03:29 PM   #8
Maédhros
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Shield

amyrlis, i agree on your take on Elwe and Olwe.
Quote:
Elwe may have feared that he might look diminished and weak when compared to the newcomers. And we know the princes, at least Feanor's sons, would have treated him this way, as one of lesser stature.
I don't think that all of the Sons of Feanor would have treated him that way. Maybe Caranthir the Dark, Curufin and Celegorn. I don't think that either Maedhros or Maglor would have done that.
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But, I also think that even asking Olwe to "loan" the Noldor his ships would be like asking Feanor if you could borrow his simarils. Feanor would not have given those up even if it meant that the light of the two trees would never be restored. Olwe would not give up his ships, even though it severed his friendship with the Noldor.
I meant that if the Teleri would have used their ships as a Ferry system to the Noldor to transport them to ME. The Teleri would have been in charge of the ships at all times, just as they did while transporting the host of the Noldor and Vanyar in the War of Wrath.
Quote:
Well, those are my thoughts on yet another great topic brought up by Maedhros!
Thanks.
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