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Old 07-02-2002, 02:55 PM   #1
MaladyMirkwood
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Ring Giant spiders

hey,
can anyone tell me anythinh about shelob ? that would be relly helpfull.
Malady~ [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
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Old 07-02-2002, 03:23 PM   #2
The Silver-shod Muse
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Off-hand all I can say is that Shelob was a descendent of the spider Ungoliant that sucked the life from the Trees of Valinor. Sauron used her to guard the pass that Sam and Frodo used to get into Mordor.

[ July 02, 2002: Message edited by: The Silver-shod Muse ]
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Old 07-02-2002, 03:42 PM   #3
Arwen Imladris
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You can read more about her, well Ungoliant anyway, in the Silmarillion. Isn't shelob also related to the spiders in Mirkwood from the Hobbit?
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Old 07-02-2002, 04:19 PM   #4
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You can read more about her, well Ungoliant anyway, in the Silmarillion. Isn't shelob also related to the spiders in Mirkwood from the Hobbit
F.Y.I

Ungoliant first apperas in the Sil chp 8 "of the Darkening of Valinor

"Ungoliant descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service. But she had disowned her master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness;.

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Old 07-03-2002, 03:52 PM   #5
Aldagrim Proudfoot
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The spiders of Mirkwood were, in a way, lesser siblings of Shelob.
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Old 07-03-2002, 04:05 PM   #6
Orofacion of the Vanyar
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Sauron used her to guard the pass...
This isn't quite fair to say. Sauron had little control over Shelob, her presence in the pass was just a bonus that profited both, a sort of symbiosis.

I find Shelob an interesting subject. Since Ungoliant was a Maiar corrupt, and the spiders here spawn, this means they are children of maiar. The only other child of a maiar was Luthien. An interesting parallel to say the least.
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Old 07-03-2002, 05:56 PM   #7
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Hey~
I hate spiders!!!!!!! I hate them I hate them I hate them!!! Are they going to actually make it look real and crap????? Ahhhhhhhhhhhh !!! I hate spiders!!!!!!!! Yeah well, Laters~!
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Old 07-03-2002, 06:11 PM   #8
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Off-hand all I can say is that Shelob was a descendent of the spider Ungoliant that sucked the life from the Trees of Valinor. Sauron used her to guard the pass that Sam and Frodo used to get into Mordor.
This is right, but Sauron didn't used her as stated by Orofacion of the Vanyar.
From the Letters of JRRT: 144
Quote:
The giant spiders were themselves only the offspring of Ungoliante the primeval devourer of light, that in spider-form assisted the Dark Power, but ultimately quarrelled with him. There is thus no alliance between Shelob and Sauron, the Dark Power's deputy; only a common hatred.
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Since Ungoliant was a Maiar corrupt, and the spiders here spawn, this means they are children of maiar.
I have find no evidence that Ungoliant is a maiar.
Quote:
There, beneath the sheer walls of the mountains and the cold dark sea, the shadows were deepest and thickest in the world; and there in Avathar, secret and unknown, Ungoliant had made her abode. The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service.
Wouldn't the Eldar know if she were a Maia?
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Old 07-03-2002, 09:14 PM   #9
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Silmaril

It's been a while since I have read The Silmarillion but I swear I remember reading somewhere about her being a spirit (possibly a Maia) who preferred to take on the shape of a spider. So, she wasn't really a spider, then, I guess.
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Old 07-03-2002, 09:27 PM   #10
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Tolkien

As for Ungoliant,
Quote:
...the Elves knew not whence she came...
-The Silmarillion

But they think that she was some sort of spirit that took shape of a spider. Shelob was her last child. The spiders of Mirkwood were her offspring. read the chapter Shelob's Lair in the Two Towers. Ther's a good page or two on her history.
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Old 07-03-2002, 09:32 PM   #11
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The earliest definite date we have for Shelob is c.1000 (Second Age), because we know that she occupied Cirith Ungol 'before the first stone of Barad-dûr' which was laid at about that time (from The Two Towers IV 9 Shelob's Lair). We also know, from the same source, that she originally came there 'flying from ruin' - this is indefinite, but ties in neatly with the War of Wrath a thousand years earlier. The suggestion here is that she originally occupied Beleriand, probably in the Ered Gorgoroth, and fled southwards to escape its destruction.

If 'Shelob' were an Elvish name, the 'e' sound would be short, giving a pronunciation something like 'shehlob'. Her name, though, is a compound of two English words, 'She-lob', so we have assumed a standard English pronunciation.

This info was taken form "The Encyclopedia of Arda" in Glyphweb.com

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Old 07-03-2002, 11:54 PM   #12
Orofacion of the Vanyar
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Perhaps I was a little too presumptious. Let me clariffy. It is my opinion that Ungoliant was a corrupt maiar. In truth, Ungoliant is almost a sort of evil counterpart to Tom Bombadil in that she is an enigma. We really don't know what her origins are. But according to this quote:

Quote:
...and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service.
This is where I draw my conclusion from. It sounds alot like the description Tolkien gives for the Balrogs. Just my observations.
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Old 07-04-2002, 12:06 AM   #13
Belin
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Silmaril

Quote:
In truth, Ungoliant is almost a sort of evil counterpart to Tom Bombadil in that she is an enigma.
I think so too, and it's for that very reason that I like the idea of her not being a Maia. They're such a well-opposed pair: preservation/destruction, mastery/murder, humor/menace. And they both seem to fall outside the controlled, Valar-related order of things, functioning as forces of nature.

I almost want to link them up to the beautiful and the sublime, except that Ungoliant is not sublime but purely menacing and rather disgusting while she's at it. Maybe if there were a kind of negative sublime.

--Belin Ibaimendi
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Old 07-06-2002, 08:09 AM   #14
Aldagrim Proudfoot
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I had thought the corruption of Ungoliant meant she was a spider corrupted into a monster, like Melkor made other monsters.
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