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09-14-2015, 03:34 PM | #1 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Location: Tol Morwen
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Curse of Túrin
Hello, all my fellow corpses!
To begin, Narn i-Chîn Húrin is my favorite story that Tolkien wrote. To begin again, I think that Morgoth had no power over Húrin, Túrin, Morwen or Niënor. I think that all their woe stems from their pride - only Ilúvatar had any power over his Children - Elves and Men - their origin comes from Eru Himself - and none other than Eru can change or alter their fate. I am an atheist myself, but Tolkien's conception of the differences between Elves and Men - their differences in their fates - have fascinated me from the time I can remember myself springing to this world. HOWEVER - I think that Glaurung WAS MORGOTH HIMSELF - in other words, Morgoth dispersed himself, as in the matter of Arda, to Glaurung himself - and in his irrational malice he used his "avatar" Glaurung, so to speak, to get revenge on Húrin and his offspring. Now, I know that Tolkien had some qualms about Túrin killing Morgoth FOR REAL, but I think it would have been none other than Túrin Turambar, Conqueror of Fate himself, to strike Morgoth with a final blow, with his BLACK sword Gurthang, Iron of DEATH, into the BLACK heart of Morgoth, thus vanquishing Morgoth, the black foe of Arda, forever - avenging both his kin and ALL the children of Men - thus also bringing to naught Morgoth's curse over his kin. Now, what are your thoughts on Túrin? Not on the character of Túrin himself, but on his place in the great history of Eä? To my mind, Túrin represents the best and the worst of the humanity - and I think it would be fitting to have Túrin destroy the Evil of humanity once and for all - it would bring a new era of humanity in which Túrin (representation of ALL humanity in one person) would become Tuor or Eärendil (representation of humanity as it SHOULD have been). So...having nothing other to say I would fain like my fellow Downers to put their thoughts on this matter - if I were not overbearing in my post. With all respect - Arvegil145 (although I want to change my PURPOSELESS name)!
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09-14-2015, 03:51 PM | #2 | |||
Gruesome Spectre
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I also quite like Túrin's tale in all its forms. There are things in his story I don't find elsewhere in Tolkien's works.
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Overall, I like to read about Túrin and I do pity him, but he really did bring a lot of his troubles on himself. Whether Morgoth's curse had any real teeth or not, Túrin had chances to turn aside from the path Morgoth laid for him, and spurned them because of his pride. He's not a guy I would have wanted to buddy up with, that's for sure.
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
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09-14-2015, 04:18 PM | #3 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
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Túrin is a MAN (in the sense of the entirety of HUMAN KIND) - none other than Túrin - representing the humanity itself would have been able to beat Morgoth (the Satan) himself - it is a battle between all the qualms of humanity begotten by Morgoth and between the bliss and innocence of Ilúvatar's plan for his Children - in which, in the end, Eru Ilúvatar, must win - Gurthang, Iron of Death - blessed by Ilúvatar Himself - would in the end bring to naught Morgoth, and all the discord of the Arda Marred - IRON OF DEATH - mind you - death of whom? of Morgoth himself? I think that Tolkien assigned a greater importance to the new name of Anglachel - Gurthang - I think that his idea was that the curse of Morgoth backfired in the end to Morgoth himself - and that through Túrin the humanity itself was redeemed and brought to a new beginning - the Second Music of the Ainur - in which all would know their part in its making - and its making indeed would bring a new world to being as it is being sung.
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09-14-2015, 09:05 PM | #4 | ||||
Blossom of Dwimordene
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Specifically in this story, however, I cannot say that Morgoth's curse had no effect whatsoever. He wanted Hurin to suffer by watching his family suffer. Let's suppose he has ultimate power over their fates/lives/actions and over Arda - just let's suppose that for argument's sake. He could cause them anguish by making it rain lava on them one drop at a time. He could put on a Tantalus play and starve them into wraith-hood. He could apply a whole range of exquisite tortures. But what torture could equal the family's downfall at its own hands? Anything that Morgoth would force on this family just makes them more heroic and him more horrifying, but also weaker and less keen at the same time. So, taking my original assumption aside, it's true we can't see Morgoth's direct involvement in the Narn, but that does not necessarily disprove its existence, as Morgoth is too clever and sadistic to use more direct means (even if he had the ability to do so). It's much better to have Hurin take the audience's perspective, see all the dramatic irony, and be unable to even warn his loved ones - especially if they are the ones who choose to make these choices that Hurin knows won't bode them well. I don't deny, and never have denied, that there is a fair bit of pride and stubbornness involved. However, if you look at each instance from the point of view of Morwen/Turin/Nienor, without the extra background you know as the audience - most of their choices are not meant wrongly, and are definitely made with good intentions. Put yourself in their place and their limited knowledge. Would you be able to choose any better? Some things just genuinely seem to be right. Heck, the last Kings of Arnor chose wrong in the end, and yet they missed their chance that seemed like the worse option at that time, but people can understand that and relate to it. They were even told a prophecy that they should choose the option that seemed less sound! It happens to people, and it's not their fault, because players are not readers and have limited knowledge. It happens to Hin Hurin a bit too often, though. Almost like there is a guiding hand behind each success-that-turns-into-failure. Somehow, we tend to believe that if only Turin stayed in Doriath, or if only Nienor didn't follow Morwen, or if only half the choices in the book were made differently, then their fate would be better. But here's the thing: we don't know that. These if onlies exist to torment the reader just as they are tormenting Hurin. They don't mean that it would necessarily turn out otherwise. Thus, my conclusion on that point is that we can't prove Morgoth's curse, but neither can we disprove it. No one knows the exact extent of it. I think even Morgoth doesn't know, since he doubts himself several times along the way and fears Turin. I definitely don't think Morgoth's curse was empty words, intended to scare Hurin, but neither does it wholly dominate the story. I think I prefer not to know just how much influence it actually had. I think some things can't be known, and shouldn't be know, and this is one of them. Quote:
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I had another thought, in response to Inzil's last sentence, but I wrote way more than I intended to and it's getting late. Basically, I was gonna say that Turin is a person, or maybe character, of a certain mold of tragic heroes. They are people who are hard to love personally, but hard not to follow. They are charismatic but impersonal, or cold, or like Turin with whatever social/ethical flaws you choose to name. I just finished reading Les Mis, so I had the urge to write another several paragraphs comparing Turin to Enjolras, but looking at the clock I will refrain from doing so and limit myself to noting that these two are of the same mold or prototype, just Enjolras's "mischoices" are shown in a much less negative light than Turin's while his charisma is more emphasized. If there is enough interest in this, I might start a thread of character comparisons. Good night, and aure entuluva!
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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09-14-2015, 09:38 PM | #5 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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I think that Morgoth purposed through Glaurung to bring to naught the children of Húrin - but that was not his only intent - remember: through the workings of Húrin and his children and wife - he brought the destruction of Doriath, Nargothrond, Brethil and Gondolin - indirectly.
And I still stand firm to my point - ONLY Ilúvatar can "curse" or change the course of the destiny of a certain individual - remember that the Eruhíni were conceived by Eru ALONE - therefore, anyone, even Morgoth, could curse someone, but it would be in vain (at least in my opinion).
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09-15-2015, 10:14 AM | #6 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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But Turin and Hurin were Men, and Men have no "destiny:' they aren't bound by the Music.
Morgoth's curse was effective, but it worked by destroying his victims from within, turning them into agents who would work his will even while consciously opposing him. The Hurin who was released was a twisted, bitter, merciless old man whose brooding lust for vengeance destroyed one realm (Brethil) and contributed to the fall of another (Doriath). (Note in this context that Melian "healed" him, in other words ameliorated the Melkorian poisons at work in his heart).
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
09-15-2015, 11:42 AM | #7 | ||
Shade of Carn Dűm
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I know that - and that is precisely why I am of opinion that Morgoth had no inherent power to alter the will of Ilúvatar - Morgoth, of course, could, and did, make the lives of Elves and Men miserable - but the fact is: Morgoth could NOT affect the free will of neither Elves nor Men (or at least their fëar) - he could only achieve his "curse" by indirect means - through Túrin's and Morwen's pride - and through Glaurung.
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09-15-2015, 03:23 PM | #8 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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No, he couldn't destroy their free will- but he could induce them to choose evil (compare Sauron's cozening of Gorlim). Morgoth of course could work at a far more elemental level than mere deceit.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
09-20-2015, 02:50 PM | #9 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
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What happened to all the debating? Did I kill it?
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
09-20-2015, 02:58 PM | #10 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Hahahahahaha...no...BUT I'M SURE I'M GOING TO KILL SOMETHING! (don't worry, I won't). I was working on the Translations from the Elvish, revising some chapters for hours and hours - and wouldn't you know it!? I DELETED ALL THE STUFF I WAS WORKING ON!
But now...going back to your question about debate - I'll get to it when I catch a break from all the stuff I'm currently working on... Sorry for the rant, but I lost literally hours of my time on nothing. But again, glad to see someone still interested in the topic .
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09-20-2015, 10:58 PM | #11 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Turning to the debate again - if Morgoth could actually curse Húrin and his kin - to the extent of completely devastating them AND 4 realms along the side, it begs the question of why he couldn't just curse everybody and destroy everyone while he's at it (though, admittedly, he did, but not with a curse...I think...)?
It COULD be that he exerted what power he still had INTO the curse itself, basically making a little "avatar" of himself inside Túrin himself - or maybe inside Glaurung for that matter - sort of like a puppet master. But that would be "cursing" only by indirect means - and he had the mastery at that field of endeavor for certain. Note how I sometimes put curse inside the quotation marks? The same I did when I mentioned how Ilúvatar "cursed" him - I did not mean that he actually, literally, cursed him in the sense of maliciously manipulating his fate and/or free will - in that context I was simply trying to show how far can you go, step by step, towards putting the blame on someone/something - in that case, towards the ultimate end - God Himself. But that is another matter and I won't go into it (at least for now).
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09-21-2015, 03:39 AM | #12 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I suppose Morgoth was petty enough to have 'pet hates'? He never forgave what he perceived as wrongs done to him. Seems like a tyrant's decision to make an example of a ringleader, and maybe try to cow the rest into submission - which he would see as a victory. Also, I think he saw it as a challenge to break the spirit of Hurin and his kin - he would see that as an enormous victory, too - although it was probably a challenge he began in arrogance, confident he would win but determined to enjoy it. Spite and revenge wreaked on his major opponents, and sadistic pleasure taken in making them suffer.
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09-21-2015, 06:20 AM | #13 | |||
Blossom of Dwimordene
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Another thing is that I do not think Morgoth himself knew how the curse would work, and if it would work at all. The curse was an act of ill-will, a trace of his malice left on the family through his willpower - still terrible, however diluted. But maybe, just maybe, the power of these men was so great that it could throw off the curse, that these people would be unaffected? At first, Morgoth thought it inconceivable. However, he certainly begins to doubt himself by Amon Rudh, and possibly to a lesser extent during Turin's other rises. But, fortunately for Morgoth, Turin was just powerful enough to rise and associate with the high kingdoms, but not powerful enough to escape him. Quote:
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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09-22-2015, 10:07 AM | #14 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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In some ways I think his work on Hurin, in particular, was the creation of a spiritual Typhoid Mary, a walking moral bioweapon "infected" with evil, in that Hurin's spirit, originally great and noble, was now twisted, bitter and hate-filled, a contagion he spread everywhere he went after his release. And to what end, if not planting the seeds of destruction in those realms which still resisted?
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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11-07-2015, 09:28 PM | #15 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Feb 2014
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I do like what you wrote about pride and how that attracted so much trouble for the lotta them. I have always very much avoided the Tale of the House of Hurin, and struggled with it each time I read it. It's so preternaturally dark and it strides from perversion to perversion--with the sibling incest finish line. Then a hurling off of a cliff of woman. A haunting of the house by Morgoth, in a particularly virulent form of stalking of a whole house! There were some highlights as well. Were it but for the Second Prophesy of Mandos, I'd have felt 'Frodo-ised' by 'bearing the Burden of the Story' such that "please somebody - is there one boat left going to Valinor. This hitch hiker would rather poke pins in his eyes than read one more blackening of House Hurin! HELP!!!". Yes - help came. Have you crossed paths with the redemption script in the Second Prophesy of Mandos, and would you like me to rant/babble about it a little? Kind Regards |
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08-12-2024, 05:30 AM | #16 | ||
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
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Damn, this is an old thread!
Anyway...while I largely cringe upon my earlier posts here, after numerous re-reads of everything Tolkien in the meantime, I still stand by my initial thesis. I don't see how it is even possible for Morgoth to curse Turin in the sense that most fandom assumes (i.e. Morgoth having some metaphysical power over the lives of Men - as in all but ensuring the outcome of a single person's life, which would go completely against Tolkien's metaphysics, both in real-life and in the legendarium). Which forces me to conclude that the so-called 'curse' was actually a perfect storm of innate character (both Turin's and Morgoth's) + Morgoth's unimaginably childish pettiness, and obsession with Hurin's family + most importantly, Turin's own belief in the curse, showcasing a complete lack of estel... I'd like to start with the conversation of Hurin and Morgoth: Quote:
It is evident to me that Eru reached out to Hurin in that moment, and that Morgoth clearly has no authority to decide the ultimate fate of Men. Sure, he can torment them, he can delay that (as Sauron did with the Nazgul), but he can't change that which Iluvatar made them. Hurin knows this, or at least it was revealed to him in that moment. My argument is that the so-called 'curse' really is a 'perfect storm' of several things: 1) Morgoth's unimaginably petty fixation on the immediate family of the one who scorned him (Hurin) EDIT: In fact, I'd say that this fixation actually provided Gondolin with a few indispensable decades - and allowed Tuor (nephew of the 'cursed' Hurin!) to go under the radar and eventually reach Gondolin, and marry Idril, and the rest is history: and, of course, a scion of the House of Hador, Earendil, ultimately brought doom and destruction on Morgoth. 2) Turin's worst characteristics - pride and rashness 3) Turin's best characteristics - pity and empathy 4) Turin's absolute worst characteristic - his own belief in the curse! I don't see this brought up all that often - but I'm 100% sure that it was Turin's belief in the very existence of the 'curse' that was the catalyst for all his terrible flaws to manifest themselves. But Turin also had beautiful virtues - but if you combine the above and present + Morgoth's petty fixation on him + unknowable circumstances = Turin's story in the end. With all that said, I'd like to focus on 4) - because it is the crux of the issue IMO... Turin's belief that Morgoth could ever possibly alter his future so much that it was effectively 'fate' (in a metaphysical sense), was, I think, an utter failure of estel on Turin's part: and through that lack, ironically, his so-called 'fate' was sealed.
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08-12-2024, 12:59 PM | #17 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Turin's 'curse', as Gwindor pointed out 'with eyes of death' (to quote Huor, since I think it is applicable) didn't exist as such, nor was Turin's future set in stone. Turin's future was still malleable.
It was Turin's blindness to all these 'escape hatches' that sealed his doom. And Morgoth never in his history spent so much time and effort just so he can destroy one family in particular. That is why I think Tolkien imagined Turin coming back "from the Doom of Men" at the end of Time - not because Turin was the one who suffered the most (he didn't), but: 1) because Turin's character is humanity writ small - all of its best and worst characteristics 2) because no character in Tolkien's works (other than his father Hurin, and Nienor Turin's sister) was as personally screwed over by Morgoth 3) he was one of the greatest (if not the greatest) warriors of Men - who would you have as your champion against Morgoth himself if not Turin? 4) Turin's grave was still intact after all the continent-sinking disasters of the First Age Turin and his black blade ("Iron of Death") will come back to haunt the most singular example of sadistic, idiotic pettiness in the world's history (I hope!)... Even if those stories originated from the very fallible mouths of Men - this is the end that I prefer, and that, I think, those same "fallible Men" were more correct on Arda's future than even the Valar. But then again, this is practically fan-fiction.
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08-13-2024, 02:35 PM | #18 | |||
Spirit of Mist
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I do not believe that Turin's "curse" was a curse in the classic sense, meaning that Morgoth simply created an enchantment that followed Turin and his kin, causing bad things to happen resulting from the words he uttered themselves. I think that it was, instead, the result of specific attention and will being exerted by Morgoth. To quote some posts I made a little while back:
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08-16-2024, 05:16 AM | #19 | |||
Shade of Carn Dűm
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However, I'd like to point out something in this quote: Quote:
The way I see it, there are only two explanations behind Morgoth' "curse": 1) The "curse" is just 'wind', i.e. it has no power whatsoever other than what Morgoth imbues it with due to his obssession/actions + what the victim of the "curse" does with it 2) Iluvatar 'approved' of this curse, and made it real - which, while horrific, isn't too far from the Book of Job, especially if there was some cosmic significance of things happening the way they did Personally, I prefer interpretation no. 1), not only because it's less horrifying, but also because it allows the interplay of free will vs fate in an organic way, never outright stating what was and wasn't due to Morgoth's influence outright, and what was and wasn't due to Turin's...eh...idiosyncracies... The no. 1) is also much more in line with ancient Greek myths, which I adore.
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