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Old 10-15-2002, 12:25 PM   #1
Fool-of-a-Took
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Sting Spoiler in his own book!

When I last read TTT a couple of months ago I noticed a bit of a spoiler in the chapter 'The Uruk Hai'. It describes the part where Merry drinks the Orc draught and it washes the pain away from the gash in his forehead; "it gave him no more trouble, but he bore a brown scar to the end of his days".
This, to me anyway, suggests that he is going to live for a few more years and doesn't die at the hands of the orcs which on a first reading spoils the suspense a little bit.
Any more pettiness out there? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 10-15-2002, 01:52 PM   #2
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Come On Fool-of-a-Took! You really don't think Tolkien would kill one of the beloved hobbits do you??? Yeah he killed off Boromir, but he had a minor part anyway.
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Old 10-15-2002, 03:20 PM   #3
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Minor part!? Give the guy some credit! He did try to save the hobbits at the end, and it wasn't his fault the ring took him! Sorry, but Boromir's one of my favorite characters and I had to defend him. I'll be quiet now. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
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Old 10-15-2002, 04:50 PM   #4
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I agree with you, mortal elf. But one thing separates Merry from Boromir. Merry's a sidekick. They never die. Boromir was what is called a "tragic hero". That means that he has some internal flaw (such as a weakness for the Ring) and must therefore die.

It really didn't have a lot to do with how cool a character is - it's all about the archetypes. For example, in Batman, Robin never dies because he's a sidekick!
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Old 10-15-2002, 05:12 PM   #5
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Well, yes, on repeat reading of TTT and RotK, I noticed both instances where Tolkien mentions Merry and Pippin's futures. (Somehow they passed me by on the first reading). Pippin's was when Tolkien said that in after years he always had tears come to his eyes whenever he heard horns blow (because it reminded him of when the Rohirrim came to the rescue of Minis Tirith blowing their horns).

I understand now that Tolkien wouldn't kill our beloved hobbits (well, except in the appendices [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] ) But I was't putting anything past him the first time I read, 'cause killing off a beloved character is a sure way to make your readers cry. "The Hunchback of Notre Dame" for example. What twisted author would kill his heroine? Victor Hugo for one.

After reading that book I guess I've never ruled out the possibilities of death for any character in other books. It's made me mistrustful of authors, you could say. But Tolkien's a better author than Victor Hugo any old day.
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Old 10-15-2002, 05:17 PM   #6
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I wouldn't call it a 'spoiler.' I guess it's Tolkien's way of reassuring all the anxious readers that even though they do go through some pretty tough stuff, Merry and Pippin will be OK.

I dunno. I'm tired. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]
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Old 10-16-2002, 09:34 AM   #7
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Sting

I think it is a spoiler, because, in all the tense moments, you don't wonder "will they die?".
You already know they will live to grow old, so it takes away some of the suspense

But I agree, the line is easily missed.

[ October 16, 2002: Message edited by: Aramacil ]
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Old 10-16-2002, 11:13 AM   #8
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Quote:
it gave him no more trouble, but he bore a brown scar to the end of his days
It doesn't say that "the end of his days" is at some point far in the future. It could have been tomorrow.
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Old 10-16-2002, 12:16 PM   #9
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Silmaril

If it were tomorrow, it wouldn't be a scar, they don't heal that fast!

Seriously though, suspense is not the only dramatic device available. Often an author will choose to reveal something to give stability, or to raise more questions yet.
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Old 10-16-2002, 02:04 PM   #10
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Sting

Quote:
Yeah he killed off Boromir, but he had a minor part anyway.
But he had a minor part because he was killed off so early.

Quote:
It doesn't say that "the end of his days" is at some point far in the future. It could have been tomorrow.
I would think that it was pretty much implied that he would live a fair bit longer.
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Old 10-16-2002, 05:09 PM   #11
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Sting

Wait just a darn minute! Robin did die in the Batman comics, DC had a petition and the people voted to kill Robin (Tim Drake, Robin number 2). So for coolness, Merry or Pippin could have been killed, it just wasn't to be. I think Tolkien had envisioned the Scouring of the Shire before half the rest of the book, and wanted that ending.
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Old 10-17-2002, 02:11 AM   #12
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Sting

How about when it is said that Aragorn left Lorien and never came back there as a living man?

That sounded like a spoiler for me the first time I read it because I imagined it foresaw his untimely death or his failure in his quest. I didn't think that it was to the 'death' of the land itself that Tolkien was alluding to. Anyway, I still think it's touching. Tolkien has the habit of dropping these occasional hints that get you thinking.
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Old 02-15-2003, 04:12 AM   #13
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Tolkien

Interesting points, all! I had never thought about that before.

Probably because the Lord of the Rings is not a thriller or a detective novel. Frodo never once says, "Elementary, my dear Samwise". Tolkien, not a writer by trade, never felt the need to conform to any model.

The fact that we can still enjoy the book, even though we know that Merry and Pippin survive, says a lot both about the book and about modern day books and movies that have to rely on suspense ad nauseum to keep one interested.
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Old 02-16-2003, 05:46 PM   #14
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Sting

I've found a ton of those, such as when it mentioned that Frodo later translated Galadriels song. When would he have time to do that? I can't think of any others at the moment, but I have read several.
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Old 02-16-2003, 06:21 PM   #15
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Sting

I think the important thing to remember here is that Tolkien was not in essence writing a novel he was writing a piece of mythogical history. If this is taken into account then before even touching the book the reader would realise that all ends well as if it does not and Sauron rules Middle Earth then the world would not be as it is today.

This comes through in the book I think with examples which have been given. Something else I feel is worth a mention are the liitle paragraphs at the end of each book.

Quote:
The third part tells of the last defence against the Shadow, and the end of the mission of the Ring-Bearer in THE RETURN OF THE KING
Now this quote is directly taken from the end of the FotR. Here is shown the author's belief that everything will be okay. And talk about spoilers, the third book is named Return of the King. When first reading FotR there is still doubt in Aragorn's mind whether or not he should reclaim the thrown of Gondor! JRR, you are worse than Entertainment Tonight!

[ February 16, 2003: Message edited by: Mattius ]
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Old 02-16-2003, 08:14 PM   #16
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Actually Matius, Tolkien wanted the title of the last book to be "War of the Ring". He agreed with you that RotK was too obvious. The publishers insisted on RotK.
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Old 02-16-2003, 08:22 PM   #17
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Darned publishers... [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]
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Old 02-16-2003, 09:10 PM   #18
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But it doesnt say when the end of his days were!!!!!
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Old 02-17-2003, 01:33 AM   #19
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Silmaril

There are many of these in the books, one "minor" one that some people may not notice is the first paragraph of Chapter VIII: Fog on the Barrow Downs

Quote:
That night they heard no noises. But either in his dreams or out of them, he could not tell which, Frodo heard a sweet singing running in his mind: a song that seemed to come like a pale light behind a grey rain-curtain, and growing stronger to turn the veil all to glass and silver, until at last it was rolled back, and a far green country opened before him under a swift sunrise
This quote is about Frodo having a dream in the house of Tom Bombadil, this is his first thought of longing to go to the havens, because the dream is about the havens. It kind of forshadows that he is going to go there, even though it does not say exactly.

I too never thought of the Merry scar part, forshadowing that he was not going to die. But I just never had a fear that Merry or Pippin would ever die an untimely death in the books, Tolkien would just never do that. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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Old 02-17-2003, 06:14 AM   #20
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Pipe

Frodo's dream (and the dozens of other similar examples) are different, Gorwingel. That's an example of foreshadowing, a device used frequently by JRRT inside the story - see this thread for more.

Merry's scar and the other examples here are really spoilers that are outside the story. This didn't come out as clear as I thought it would, but hopefully you can see what I'm getting at. I guess the main difference IMO is that references such as Merry's scar were not meant as foreshadowing later events as such. They merely explain a fact to us, rather than describe a later episode. They seem almost unintentional.
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Old 02-17-2003, 03:23 PM   #21
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1420!

Just curious whether anyone actually read the Forward...it states that regarding the size of Hobbits, the Bullroarer was 5 foot 4 (or was it 4 foot 5?) and could ride a horse, and that his height was exceeded only by two famous characters of old, but that that curious matter was described in the story. Of course, Merry and Pippin are those famous characters (thanks to the Ent-draughts), although Treebeard really took me by surprise when I first read the book! Also, Tolkien says how the story was recorded in The Red Book, so it's clear that Sauron didn't really take over M-E.
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Old 02-17-2003, 03:32 PM   #22
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Sting

As with most hero quests, the point of the story seems to me to be about the journey rather than about the particular outcome. Not to say that the outcome is unimportant, it's simply less important. It's similar when watching serialized television. I never watched an episode of Star Trek TNG thinking Riker would die at the end, I was more interested in HOW he would get out of the crap he always found himself in. Please, no one kill me for comparing LotR to television, it was just my best analogy at the moment [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ February 17, 2003: Message edited by: XPhial ]
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Old 02-17-2003, 04:12 PM   #23
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Good point, XPhial [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

No, I'm not going to attack you for your choice of analogy...

(For those who prefer a more "literary" analogy, think of Shakespeare. We all know that Romeo and Juliet will come to a bad end, that Macbeth will be done away with, that Rosalind and Portia will find True Love, in short, that there will be lots of weddings if it is a comedy, lots of people dying if it is a tragedy, or the British monarchy going along on its merry way if it is a history. But for many people it is nevertheless enjoyable to read and watch the dialogue, and to see the actors in a particular production bring the well-known characters to life).
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Old 02-17-2003, 04:16 PM   #24
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Not to mention the new Star Wars trilogy! We all know (hopefully) what happens to Anakin.
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Old 02-17-2003, 04:41 PM   #25
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Sorry, well it is kind of a spoiler, but I guess it is not [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] . I was feeling so smart, but I guess I am mistaken.
When you start reading the books, you kind of have an idea of how it turns out, you know that the dark side must totally not win because in the prologue it tells about the hobbits and everything and how they are still there but there is very few of them. They would not be telling you that if Sauron had taken over Middle Earth.
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Old 02-17-2003, 04:46 PM   #26
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No, you're right, it is a spoiler in the plot sense, but it does SPOIL the book, since the book isn't about the ending anyway.
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Old 02-17-2003, 06:51 PM   #27
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I agree that when you read a book such as LotR, you have an innate sense that everything will turn out for the good in the end.

But you don't know how it is going to happen (well, the first time that you read it, anyway [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]), and you don't know (although you might guess) what will befall the characters along the way.

So, I find the references to Merry's scar and Pippin's remebrance of the horns of the Rohirrim curious. The reader is led to believe later in the book that Merry might not survive the battle with the Witch-King and that Pippin is crushed by a troll. With Pippin, this seems to me to be an intentional cliff hanger, since Book V ends with:

Quote:
"... This is my tale, and it is ended now. Goodbye!" And his thought fled far away and his eyes saw no more.
Surely, we are meant to think that this might possibly be the end of Pippin, and we do not find out that it is not until a fair few chapters later.

So, it seems to me curious that JRRT included "spoilers" indicating that Merry, and especially Pippin, survive the tale. Quite possibly they were meant as deliberate "clues" to reassure the sharp-eyed, since they are very subtle (and had certainly eluded me until I read this thread [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] ).

[ February 17, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]
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Old 02-18-2003, 04:48 AM   #28
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Silmaril

I think the book is suspensible enough, when you read on, you kind of forget about the previous chapter, cause there's so much going on. It didn't spoil it for me. The story jumps from one scene to another, that can make you a bit confused in a way you really forget that everything is gonna be ok.
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Old 02-18-2003, 05:59 AM   #29
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I dunno... I don't really think there is that much suspense in the Lord of the Rings. It's not a cliffhanger, really. I mean, we get situations where Frodo has been stung by Shelob, and then captured by Orcs, and we don't really know what's going on, but I don't think there's any real doubt as to the outcome.

Like X Phial says, it's more about how the heroes get out of the situation. Like Bo and Luke Duke (hey, I didn't start the analogies, don't blame me) - you know that after the commercial break, the General Lee is gonna land, and be completely undamaged, Rosco is gonna end up in the river, and the 'good old boys' drive off to more whacky adventures with their cousin Daisy.

The Shelob cliffhanger is an interesting one, because yes Tolkien himself does put a spoiler in for the quick minded. There are, I'm sure, some people who when they first read that part thought, "No, Sam's wrong, he's just asleep like in Galadriel's Mirror." Not me, but there are lots of clever people out there.
Quote:
Also, Tolkien says how the story was recorded in The Red Book, so it's clear that Sauron didn't really take over M-E.
Oh, wow, yeah that got me too - otherwise I probably would have thought that the bad guys win. Come on - when does that ever happen??
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Old 02-18-2003, 04:14 PM   #30
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You guys are so cool. You make me think.

First, foreshadowing vs. spoilers. As a writer I'm eager to settle this matter and show off at the same time. The Merriam-Webster defines foreshadowing as "to represent, indicate, or typify beforehand, prefigure." It alludes to a future event, instead of explicitely stating what will happen--as in a dream, vision, or "strange feeling" that the hero gets while in the course of his adventure. Spoilers generally aren't intentional, and let you know pretty much exactly what's going to happen. To further these analogies, think of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. I can't remember quite what happened, but it's something to the effect that Arthur was told that he wouldn't die until X happened. So no matter what awful scrape he gets himself into, we know that he'll make it because X hasn't happened yet. That's more the effect of a spoiler--we KNOW, for a fact, that Arthur won't die yet.

Anyhow. XPhial, great point. I didn't cry when Sam thought Frodo was dead--felt sorry as heck for Sam, but you know what? I was pretty sure that Tolkien wasn't going to kill off his Ringbearer. The cool thing is that Tolkien was able to get Frodo in and out of all these dreadful situations, more or less intact. (One of my favorite of Tolkien's quotes is: "I have gotten the hero in to such a fix that not even an author will be able to extricate him without effort." Or something to that effect.) Though he did have me pretty good with the part that the Saucepan Man quoted, about Pippin...I had to flip forward to make absolutely positive that Pippin spoke again. I was about to die.

But this thread has only brought back to me the thought that you guys must be a lot smarter or more attentive than me; I didn't notice a single one of these! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Namárië,

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