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Old 11-22-2005, 10:00 AM   #1
Morsul the Dark
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Instant death?

Arwen is old...very old and shes like I want to give up immortality for aragorn considered her age wouldnt she go "Im mortal" and suddenly keal over and die of old age?
how does giving up your immortality work?
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Old 11-22-2005, 10:59 AM   #2
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I believe (please correct me if i'm wrong ^_^; ) that Arwen gave up her immortality before or around the time she married Aragorn. Although she was mortal now, she still outlived Aragorn because she was still an Elf, just not an immortal one. Once Aragorn had died she became lonely and eventually wandered off into Lorien to die (I think. Man I'm not good at this kinda stuff)
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Old 11-22-2005, 12:18 PM   #3
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I see your point Morsul, but I have no clue as to the answer. Because she is so old as an Elf it seems that she should just die as a human, but then the story doesn't say she becomes human, just mortal. So I suppose that yes she is going to die but not immediately she stops being an Elf.

If you made any sense out of that I congratulate you!
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Old 11-22-2005, 12:43 PM   #4
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Just look at Elros! He chose to become mortal, took Tar-Minyatur and lived for 500 years.

And why should Arwen die at once? She was old, that's true but her body wasn't old like a human body would be after that long. Apparently elves can keep their bodies young, hence their timeless looks. She shouldn't die of old age until her mortal body has grown old. You or me wouldn't die even if we lived for 500 years if our body could find a way of preserve itself, or even better renew itself. A person isn't killed by age itself, but by the effect it has on the body.

I don't know how giving up mortality works, but I can't see a reason why Arwen should die the moment she declares herself mortal.
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Old 11-22-2005, 01:03 PM   #5
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It was decided by the Valar that she would stay by Elrond's side as an Elf, or part from him and suffer the Doom of Men. Since she chose Aragorn – and the Doom of Men – it would have been bad form of the Valar to let her die immediately and have her choice be all for nothing. And the Valar are good; so she was granted a life with Aragorn.
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Old 11-22-2005, 01:23 PM   #6
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I think what Arwen gave up was not necessarily immortality as we think of it.

We think of immortality as living forever, being invincible, incapable of dying. But Elvish immortalness was not such, because Elves could and did die. The reason they are immortal is that they won't die unless they are killed by something and even then their spirits simply go to Valinor. They still exist in the same world.

Men's death is different, for they leave the world, and go somewhere else.

So when Arwen gives up immortality, I think she was giving up staying in Arda when she died. I would think she could still live forever in Middle-Earth, since her Elvish body wouldn't age(as Gothmog points out), but when something did kill her, she would leave the Circles of the World, unlike her Elvish family.
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Old 12-11-2005, 10:18 PM   #7
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Question A little something else.

I'm not sure if this will be deleted or what not but it has something to do with the topic.

I was watching the TT today and it talked about Arwen's fate being tied to the ring. I take the to mean that if the ring isn't detroyed and ME is taken over and everyone is enslaved and so forth that would be her fate also. Now i'm not sure what happened in the book ( I don't think it really says), but in the movie Arwen gets all weak and is like dying. Elrond puts it, "The light of the Valar is leaving her" or something like that. My question is why does she appear to be weak and dying, or is she just all depressed and if so about what?.

She gave up her immortality and became mortal and her fate was then tied to the ring. Does that have some deeper meaning, or just what I said?

Simply put how exactly is Arwen's fate tied to the ring.
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Old 12-11-2005, 10:36 PM   #8
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I believe it does not say in the book that Arwen's faith is linked to the ring's, nor Elrond's comment on the grace of the Valar leaving her. Book Arwen is not as much a principal character as in the movie.

Back on topic a bit, I don't think that Arwen by choosing to be mortal she chose to live a short life. We know that when King Eleassar lays down to die (as he is allowed to choose his time of death) Arwen begs him not to die and then we see her running to Lorien, as ElentariGreenleaf said, not to be seen ever again. Yet we don't know if she died of "natural causes" or if something (sadness maybe?) killed her.

Perhaps Gurthang is on to something when he says that she would still not die "just because" but rather that the difference would be after her death (caused by some external factor)
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Old 12-11-2005, 11:10 PM   #9
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She did not "give up" her immortality, spontaneously changing from an elf to a man.

She was half-elven - not an elf to begin with. So was her father, Elrond. As half-elves, their family was given a choice - to be immortal or mortal.

Elrond had already decided to be immortal. His children - Arwen, Elrohir, and Elladan - were given the choice also (since their mother was a full elf). They had until their father left Midde-earth to decide.

Until they made their decision, they aged slowly as elves do. From what happened, we can tell that when she chose mortality, her body started the mortal course of aging from her current physical state - not from where she'd be physically had she been mortal all along.
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Old 12-11-2005, 11:25 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolidir
I'm not sure if this will be deleted or what not but it has something to do with the topic.

I was watching the TT today and it talked about Arwen's fate being tied to the ring. I take the to mean that if the ring isn't detroyed and ME is taken over and everyone is enslaved and so forth that would be her fate also. Now i'm not sure what happened in the book ( I don't think it really says), but in the movie Arwen gets all weak and is like dying. Elrond puts it, "The light of the Valar is leaving her" or something like that. My question is why does she appear to be weak and dying, or is she just all depressed and if so about what?.

She gave up her immortality and became mortal and her fate was then tied to the ring. Does that have some deeper meaning, or just what I said?

Simply put how exactly is Arwen's fate tied to the ring.
This is relevant to the topic, but this isn't how Tolkien's story goes. Peter Jackson added that "twist" for the movies.

If he meant her fate is tied to the Ring literally, that is a terrible stretch and distortion of the story. How is her fate all of the sudden tied to a Ring she's never had anything to do with? Sauron wouldn't have known Arwen.

If he want his movie line to fit the book's story, then we must presume that he meant she was just tied to it emotionally - that is, Arwen could not stand the thought of leaving Middle-earth and being immortal while she knew Aragorn would be left for dead as Sauron took over the world and destroyed his foes. As an immortal, she could still die from grief.

I think the latter is more reasonable. Despite Peter Jackson's distortions of the story, I'd like to think he wouldn't have taken on the bizarre change of Arwen being literally cursed by the Ring's fate.
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Old 12-11-2005, 11:25 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legolas
From what happened, we can tell that when she chose mortality, her body started the mortal course of aging from her current physical state - not from where she'd be physically had she been mortal all along.
Can we? I can't recall anything saying that she aged as well. She outlived Aragon and he lived a long life (even for a descendent of the Numenoreans) and I'm not sure whether it says she died of old age or it just does not say.
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Old 12-11-2005, 11:29 PM   #12
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Arwen would've been expected to live longer than Aragorn. The precedence is Elros, Elrond's brother. Elros lived five hundred years. Arwen was just a generation removed from Elros genetically, and she had even more elven 'blood' because her mother was wholly elven.
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Old 12-12-2005, 02:53 AM   #13
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In the new 'LotR: A Reader's Companion' Hammond & Scull cite Tolkien's unpublished letter to Eileen Elgar, begun 22 September 1963:

Quote:
Tolkien suggests that Arwen could have surrendered her life at the same time as Aragorn, but she was not yet prepared to do so. Although she had become mortal, by nature she was still Elvish, with the long view of life held by that immortal race, to whom 'the gift of the One to Men' ... is bitter to recieve.
It would seem, therefore, that on becoming mortal she became like Aragorn, with the Numenorean 'grace' to lay down her life when she chose. She just couldn't bring herself to do it at that point.

This puts their parting in a whole new light. It wasn't so much a case of Aragorn 'deserting' Arwen, leaving her alone. It was more a case that he knew it was his time to die while she retained the option to go on - which she took.

So, Arwen died on Cerin Amroth because by that time she was prepared to do so.
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Old 12-21-2005, 09:51 AM   #14
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Arwen could have, although it would have been preposterous, to stretch her life out like the later numenorean kings did, to lengthen their lives. Now, of course arwen would not do that, but the fact she could......And Aragorn suggested she find a ship to the Havens, but 'No ship will bear me now,' or something to the extent. So even though i doubt Mandos would be happy to figure out what the heck is going on when arwen set anchor in Avallone, she gave up her life on her own, and couldve extended it. She would not have wanted to live a mortal life after aragorn died, in a land where nobody dwells. So she laid down her life, which sense i have not experianced death i can not say for sure who this happened. Was it by 'letting go,' or giving up the will to live, or by stopping her resistence to death? I dont know, and sense this is a death topic nobody can say for sure unless they died or something and can still post. I dont know how much farther this topic can get without guessing.

I think as far as PJ adding the 'fate tied to the ring' part, it would have left out aso much as afore mentioned. Maybe elrond was just stating the obvious, that a victory by Sauron would ensure the death of many elves. <-------From Encyclopedia of Arda, On the Movies, RotK
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Old 12-21-2005, 11:39 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
In the new 'LotR: A Reader's Companion' Hammond & Scull cite Tolkien's unpublished letter to Eileen Elgar, begun 22 September 1963:

Quote:
Tolkien suggests that Arwen could have surrendered her life at the same time as Aragorn, but she was not yet prepared to do so. Although she had become mortal, by nature she was still Elvish, with the long view of life held by that immortal race, to whom 'the gift of the One to Men' ... is bitter to recieve.
I would have greatly regretted such a dual death scene. It would remind me too starkly of the practice of suttee (also called sati), wherebye a widow was expected to immolate herself on her husband's funeral pyre. That does not seem a practice in keeping with the values of Middle-earth.
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Old 12-21-2005, 11:57 AM   #16
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No offense, but a dual death scene would've been a bit corny and lame in my opinion. How do you explain one without something weird happening? They "loved each other so much" that when one died, the other died instantly? Yawn.
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