The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > Novices and Newcomers
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-14-2003, 11:44 AM   #1
Finrod Felagund
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Tolkien The Price on Beren's head

It says in the Silmarillion that Morgoth set a price on Beren's head no less then High King Fingon.What would Morgoth give to the assasin?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2003, 11:58 AM   #2
Shark
Hungry Ghoul
 
Shark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,721
Shark has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

It was Morgoth. He most likely would kill the assassin, fearing he might be a threat to him and his cause.
Shark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2003, 02:49 PM   #3
Lord of Angmar
Tyrannus Incorporalis
 
Lord of Angmar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: the North
Posts: 833
Lord of Angmar has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I agree. He certainly would not give the assassin any material reward. A cruel laugh followed by torture until death would probably ensue, whatever Morgoth actually promised.
__________________
...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.
Lord of Angmar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2003, 02:47 AM   #4
MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 575
MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie Send a message via AIM to MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie
1420!

I highly doubt that would happen. I don't think that Morgoth would do that because if he ever needed anyone assassinated after that, no one would want to do it. He probably gave him something of value like gold or whatever. And he might have wanted to call on the assassin again later some time, and that way, they grow to trust each other to some extent.
__________________
Do Not Touch

-Willie
MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2003, 09:18 AM   #5
Lord of Angmar
Tyrannus Incorporalis
 
Lord of Angmar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: the North
Posts: 833
Lord of Angmar has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Well, let's reevaluate the question. Morgoth would not hire an 'assassin' to kill Beren or Fingon. It simply means that whatever orc or dragon or troll who comes upon and kills Beren or Fingon and provides proof will get a reward. I doubt Morgoth would be true to his word if it was a lowly orc who sought the reward.
__________________
...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.
Lord of Angmar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2003, 10:26 PM   #6
MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 575
MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie Send a message via AIM to MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie
1420!

Well, assuming if it's a lowly orc, then maybe it might get some riches, and possibly a higher rank. That might encourage other orcs.

But I do see what you mean now, and its seems like the orc would get played for the fool. I don't know if it would turn out like you said, but he might be under-rewarded, and if so, the orc might say something along the lines of, "Hey, I deserve more than this!" And maybe then his life might be taken.

But this would still apply:
Quote:
if he ever needed anyone assassinated after that, no one would want to do it
__________________
Do Not Touch

-Willie
MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2003, 11:41 AM   #7
The Squatter of Amon Rdh
Spectre of Decay
 
The Squatter of Amon Rdh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Bar-en-Danwedh
Posts: 2,206
The Squatter of Amon Rdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Squatter of Amon Rdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Send a message via AIM to The Squatter of Amon Rdh
Sting

Morgoth just doesn't think that way. To negotiate and to honour one's agreements is to acknowledge that the other party has some value. Morgoth sees all others as tools, nothing more. Indeed, such is his contempt for humanity especially that he offers Hrin a captaincy of balrogs in The Lay of the Children of Hrin, even though scant pages ago, that warrior had been the Elves' most loyal follower. Besides, his orcs could always kill people for him, and he ruled them by fear, not rewards.
__________________
Man kenuva mtim' andne?
The Squatter of Amon Rdh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2003, 02:17 PM   #8
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Auspicious Wraith
 
Eomer of the Rohirrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,990
Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Sting

I don't think the Hurin example is too relevant. Hurin was an old foe of Morgoth's so undoubtedly he would have double-crossed him.

However, if an Orc killed Beren or Fingon, I'm pretty sure he would be rewarded. Why not? What is the harm of promoting that particular Orc to captain of his platoon, or whatever?

Surely it would be counterproductive to kill an Orc who has proved to be very useful to you.

I think its pretty unlikely that an Orc would be getting ideas so far above his station that Morgoth should be worried.

[ August 16, 2003: Message edited by: Eomer of the Rohirrim ]
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond
Eomer of the Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2003, 12:06 PM   #9
The Squatter of Amon Rdh
Spectre of Decay
 
The Squatter of Amon Rdh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Bar-en-Danwedh
Posts: 2,206
The Squatter of Amon Rdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Squatter of Amon Rdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Send a message via AIM to The Squatter of Amon Rdh
Sting

My point was rather that Morgoth thinks it likely that Hrin will accept his bribe. The audacity of offering it in the first place to such a determined enemy is an indication of Morgoth's contempt for the faith of men. In the Lay, his motivation is the prophecy that treachery will be the undoing of the Noldor, as we can see in these lines:
Quote:
Lo! Morgoth remembered***the mighty doom,
the weird of old***that the Elves in woe,
in ruin and wrack***by the reckless hearts
of mortal Men***should be meshed at last;
that treason alone***of trusted friend
should master the magic***whose mazes wrapped
the children of Cr
However it is to a later reference that I turn for the perceived worth of Morgoth's word:
Quote:
Therefore Morgoth had him chained and set in slow torment; but after a while he came to him, and offered him his choice to go free whither he would, or to receive power and rank as the greatest of Morgoth's captains, if he would but reveal where Turgon had his stronghold, and aught else that he knew of the King's counsels. But Hrin the Steadfast mocked him, saying: 'Blind you are Morgoth Bauglir, and blind shall ever be, seeing only the dark. You know not what rules the hearts of Men, and if you knew you could not give it. But a fool is he who accepts what Morgoth offers. You will take first the price and then withhold the promise; and I should get only death, if I told you what you ask.'
(Narn I Hn Hrin - The Words of Hrin and Morgoth)

As for rewarding his Orcs, yes that is possible; but I doubt that a great deal would be given to any Orc that killed his enemy. Perhaps a promotion or some small recognition, but not a great deal. After all the Orcs were Morgoth's slaves, and he is not known for his great generosity with others. Even Ungoliant he only rewards grudgingly, and he withholds her full share of their ill-gotten gains because of his greed for the Silmarils. If a powerful ally with whom he has an agreement cannot expect fair treatment, how much less could one of his servants expect it?

No, I doubt that Morgoth would kill an Orc for good service, but I doubt that he would reward one richly either. For the same reasons (ie they are inferior beings) I too doubt that he would be worried about them getting above themselves, but it would not be in character for him to treat inferior creatures with any respect, even those that served him well.
__________________
Man kenuva mtim' andne?
The Squatter of Amon Rdh is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:06 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.