![]() |
![]() |
Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
![]() |
#1 |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,661
![]() ![]() |
Mīms Klage / The Complaint of Mim the Dwarf
I seem to be making a digital hoard of hard-to-find Tolkien texts. I have Songs for the Philologist, Concerning... 'The Hoard', and even The Boorman Script. I'm still hoping for a copy of the Zimmerman script treatment, but until that surfaces I have something, well, actually Tolkien...ish.
"The Complaint of Mīm the Dwarf" is a blended poem and prose piece by Tolkien which has never been published. The Estate has made it clear (post by Urulókė) that they will not publish it at all. But what has been published, way back in 1987, is a translation into German by Hans J. Schütz: Mīms Klage A scan from the 1987 book. 26 lines of poetry, and three pages of prose. Even my limited German tells me that it's very much a stream-of-consciousness - look at that section after the first paragraph break, where Mim speaks: Tink-tink-tink, tink-tonk, tonk-tonk, tink! No time to eat, no time to drink, tonk-tink! Tink-tonk, no time, tonk-tink, no time [to waste]! No time to sleep! No night and no day, just [haste]! Only silver and gold, hammered and [formed and shaped] and small, hard stones, [glittering] and cold Tink-tink, green and gold, tink-tink, blue and white Under my hands [quietly sprout and grow] long [leaves] and flowers, and red eyes [glowing] of [beasts] and birds between [branches and blossoms]. (Translation mine; [square brackets] are words I had to look up. I've not bothered to try and keep the rhyme or rhythm at this time.) Without translating the full piece it's hard to know when it takes place: Mim is described in the poem as 200 years old, but we don't have any other ages for him. Dwarves were typically born 100 years after their fathers, so even if this poem is set right before Mim's death he could still have the two adult or near-adult sons we see in the books. It takes place "Under a mountain, in an [impassable] land", which sounds like Amon Rudh, but poetically could be the ruins of Nargothrond. There's a rhyming translation of the poem in video here, along with some snippets of the prose. I will probably keep poking at the whole thing in my rough way, unless someone happens to come along who actually speaks German. ![]() (It's very tempting to imagine this as Mim working his curse into the hoard of Nargothrond, and thus link it directly to Concerning... 'The Hoard', but without translation I don't know how viable that is.) hS
__________________
Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,661
![]() ![]() |
Taking a break from work-translating to do some fun-translating instead, I took a stab at the rest of the poem:
Quote:
Now the Orcs, finding the issue of the secret stair, left the summit and entered Bar-en-Danwedh, which they defiled and ravaged. They did not find Mim, lurking in his caves, and when they had departed from Amon Rudh Mim appeared on the summit, and going to where Beleg lay prostrate and unmoving he gloated over him while he sharpened a knife. The fiends/monsters who stole Mim's stuff are the Orcs; the pit of sand is the caves he hid in; and we even have a mention of the knife. Or perhaps the scene is a little later, after Androg drives him off "shrieking in fear... to the brink of the cliff and... down a steep and difficult goat's path that was known to him". That would certainly offer more opportunity for smithying than while he was waiting to go and stab Beleg, and the vague summaries I've seen of the prose section say that Mim thinks about his inability to forgive, which would link to having just gone after Beleg. I'm sure the answers, at least by implication, lie in the prose, but I'm not getting into that right now. ![]() hS
__________________
Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Huinesoron; 02-27-2023 at 10:57 AM. Reason: Reuniting poem. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 |
Loremaster of Annśminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,240
![]() ![]() |
I wonder why the Estate is so opposed to its publication? It's a rather odd position to take on an original JRRT poem.
__________________
The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didnt know, and when he didnt know it. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 | ||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,661
![]() ![]() |
Quote:
I've taken a stab at the first prose paragraph, and hoooo boy, Mim is crazy: Quote:
hS
__________________
Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,661
![]() ![]() |
Quote:
But is that what he's doing now, after his flight? Or is he muttering to himself about what he did before, and what has been taken from him? hS
__________________
Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,661
![]() ![]() |
Quote:
One line has me so baffled that I've bracketed it: the German reads "Ringe für gierige Finger und Monde und Sterne und kunstlosen Schmuch fur die Buste hochmutiger Weiber." I'm comfortable with the translation, and without "und Monde und Sterne" it makes perfect sense (gems for swords, rings for fingers and brooches for women). But what does "and moons and stars" mean here? Are they more jewels for the women? Is this a German idiom? In any case, there's one (long) paragraph to go, in which we not only have the phrase "kleine Zwerg" - "petty-dwarf" - but the only conclusive link to the Legendarium: "eine Blute mit Tau darauf, so wie er einst glanzte am Tarn Aeluin". A flower with dew on it, as once shone beside Tarn Aeluin. hS
__________________
Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,638
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
German-American bilingual here, reading this with interest, though alas, with little time for thought and contemplation right now. Thanks, Huinesoron, for sharing this with us! I will try to answer as much as possible as soon as possible...
edit: I would say the line you bracketed is simply a list - "rings (for greedy fingers) and moons and stars and artless ornaments (for the breasts of proud ladies)". Moons and stars are popular designs for jewelry even nowadays, and Elves, should they have been the recipients, would have appreciated them even more than other races.
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' Last edited by Estelyn Telcontar; 03-03-2023 at 02:57 AM. Reason: adding content |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 | ||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,661
![]() ![]() |
Quote:
Quote:
![]() So what can we say about Mim? He first began to craft in Dorthonion, by Tarn Aeluin; for a long period he devoted himself to making naturalistic crafts out of his memories; he secured them in a great chest decorated with dragons. Someone (monsters or people) came and stole everything, leaving him with only a few tools and his poisoned dagger, and burning him out; he retreated to a deep hole and stewed. He then tried to remake his treasures, but found his memories faded, and his craft weakened by his inability to forgive. Interestingly, Mim's own view of himself is wildly at odds with everyone else's, and with his behaviour in this very poem. He wants to believe that he was a pure artist until right before the events of the poem - but he carries a poisoned dagger, and fills his treasures with magic that drives men mad. He was never as nice as he likes to think he was. (I should note that NoME 3.VII - The Founding of Nargothrond (1969) gives a different account of Mim's early years - it has him as the chieftain of the Petty Dwarves of Narog, helping Finrod build Nargothrond and then attempting to murder him. It's not clear how this fits in with his youth by Tarn Aeluin in the poem, or with his known death 400 years after Nargothrond was finished - that would make him very old indeed for a dwarf! Perhaps the chieftain was his grandfather?) hS
__________________
Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#9 | ||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,605
![]() |
I have ordered the Book and read that text myself. Easy for a native German. Having some experience with the Schütz translations, I have many doubts if by retranslating we would find anything even near to the original. Schütz was not very good at rhyme. It is clear, that in the 26 lines of poetry he took many liberties and nonetheless would not even try to take up rhythm, flow or even kind of rhymes used in the original. As an example, the word 'sand' in the second line cries out 'none Tolkien!' to me. I wouldn't be surprised if reading the original we would not find the information that the cave did have a sand flour. But as that is only my personal impression, please take it only as warning.
Quote:
Quote:
About Mīm's life as given in NoME: Taking aside the 400 years for a moment, I would rather say the story lines work very well together: Young Mīm wanders around in the peaceful Beleriand before Finrod founded Nargothrond. As he visits Dorthonion where Finrod's brothers ruled at this time, the two might have meet there. Finrod planning to build Nargothrond would than naturally ask a Dwarf he did know before hand for help. For how that relationship was than poisoned there are a lot of candidates: - Finrod, seeing how big a task it was, asking the Dwarves from the Ered Luin as well for help and since these dismissed the Petty-Dwarves that might be enough. - Maybe Mīm was only early involved in the planning and when it became clear that Finrods plans were made for the enlargement of the halls of Nulukkhizdīn, driving the Petty-Dwarves out of their old home the relation shifted. - Or he came late and assumed that they had found the halls of Nulukkhizdīn deserted, and only when he found out that they had driven out the Petty-Dwarves by force he tried to take revenge upon Finrod. The 400+ years are an issue, but not a big one: - On the one hand we know that at least on first generation Dwarf was very long lasting: Durin I., the Deathless. He died 'before the end of the Elder-days', which means from the context during the First Age of the sun, having outlifed all the long years of the Stars since the awakening of the Dwarves. So it might be that Tolkien saw a decline in longevity for the Dwarves and planed much longer time for the earlier generations to which Mīm might have belonged. - If we assume that Mīm was of the line of the 7 chieftains, than we are told that in these lines from time to time Dwarves were born that were so similar to the chieftains of old that they got the same name. So for example Mīm II. could have been the helper of Finrod and Mīm III. would then be the host of Tuirn later to be killed in Nargothrond. At this point we might consider anew when Mīm does utter this Klage: I find it rather forced to connect the plundering of Bar-en-Danwedh by the Orcs to the story as told in Mīm's Klage. In CoH Mīm is not sleeping on his chest of treasures and the attack of the Orcs is not a surprise for him. Thus if the Mīm of Mīm's Klage and Mīm from CoH are one and the same person, I would assume that the Mīm from CoH is a somewhat recovered version from the earlier Mīm of Mīm's Klage: In CoH he is described as poor, old, isolated and bitter against the world outside that has wronged him and his folk in many ways. When caught by Androg Mīm did even bit him, like Mīm reports of himself in his 'Klage'. As well CoH reports that the Men shot arrows at Mīm and his sons. And we learn in CoH that Mīm from time to time works in his smithy, all by himself, as we would expect from a person haunted by a back story like told in the 'Klage'. So my best guess is, that what we have in Mīms Klage is a report of one of Tśrins men of what he heard when at one day Mīm came out of his smithy (for a time, because the Tink-tonk, tonk-tink! No time to think! suggest that he is going back to work) during a fruitless try in his craft. And the friendship that Mīm develops to Tśrin might be the response to his It was not always so, and it is not good that it is so now. from the Klage. One last point: 'Complaint' does not sound fully right as translation of german 'Klage' in this context. I would rather take 'Lament'. ('Dirge' would fit from the sense as well, but does not sound a bit like Tolkien for me.) Respectfully Findegil |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#10 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Aug 2022
Posts: 3
![]() |
Mim's Story
I recently wrote an article in Italian on Mim's Klage.
My goal was to (try to) build both an internal and external chronlogy for this text, based on the clues given in the text. Here's the english version of it: https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?c...lmu8eeT5VJGiUX Of course there's a lot of speculation and I know several other possibilities are plausible but...Let me know what you think about it. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#11 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 217
![]() |
I would like to give my opinion regarding Mīn in relation to all the information we have about him.
Regarding whether they are all the same Mīm, from the point of view of the information we have and making the verosimility relevant, I do not think that Tolkien would have thought of a different Mīm on each case. And in the case of a Petty Dwarf, a Dwarf of more than 500 years It would not seem plausible to me. A possible historical line that I propose would be (please correct me if I forget something): -An indefinite time after Nargothrond is complete in FA102, Mīm becomes the young leader of the Petty Dwarves and later attempts to assassinate Finrod (say in FA250). -He is expelled and goes to Dorthonion. -When the Beörians are given Ladros in FA410 he has to leave and goes to Amon Rūdh (who he already knew). So, when Mīm die in 502 (been very old and possibly near to his natural end) would be more or less 300-350 years old. Of course this line would be a mythical adaptation to be able to make a plausible composition of his story. In relation to the moment of the Klage, I agree with Findegil that a possible one would be after stablised the friendship between Tśrin and him. Greetings |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
![]() |