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Old 02-07-2023, 06:32 AM   #321
Urwen
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The Outlaws were all dead at the time, so no, he couldn't have. At least not with the originals. Who could he have used, then?
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Old 02-07-2023, 08:24 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by Urwen View Post
The Outlaws were all dead at the time, so no, he couldn't have. At least not with the originals. Who could he have used, then?
The Outlaws were an idea, not specific people - I doubt the Hadorians would have wanted the original gang of murderers and worse in their lands. But:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Children of Hurin
Now some of the hardiest that could endure the winter stayed with Turin and led him by strange paths to a refuge in the mountains, a cave known to outlaws and runagates; and some store of food was hidden there.
"Runagate" means someone who has run away - in this context, probably runaway slaves. There was an outlaw network in Dor-lomin. The people with Turin at this point are "all the rebels that had the strength"; I'm pretty sure they're literally just all the surviving slaves from Brodda's hall, there's no indication of an outside force of rebels. Which means this cave is known to slaves held by the ruler of the land - the one you'd expect to have the highest security! It seems like it was probably fairly widely known then, and peaceful, obedient thralls don't know where the runaway slaves and revolutionaries live.

It really sounds like they had a whole underground operating there - a massive operation smuggling Hadorians to the mountains, then either setting them up as outlaws or helping them across to Brethil. It might even have been led by Aerin; at least she knew about it. There was a whole network Turin could have tapped into and led, to at the least cause major problems for Brodda and his mob.

(The ultimate goal wouldn't be to free Dor-lomin; it's too close to Angband, and unprotected by the Eldar. The best outcome would be to drive the Easterlings out, and then evacuate the country to Brethil before the Orcs turned up.)

(Weirdly, Turin leaves Dor-lomin thinking of his three choices: to stay and help them, to find Finduilas, or to go after Morwen. He decides to leave Morwen in Doriath, finds Finduilas dead... and then just sort of forgets about Dor-lomin in favour of hanging out with the Haladin until Nienor shows up.)

hS
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Old 02-07-2023, 08:34 AM   #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
The Outlaws were an idea, not specific people - I doubt the Hadorians would have wanted the original gang of murderers and worse in their lands. But:



"Runagate" means someone who has run away - in this context, probably runaway slaves. There was an outlaw network in Dor-lomin. The people with Turin at this point are "all the rebels that had the strength"; I'm pretty sure they're literally just all the surviving slaves from Brodda's hall, there's no indication of an outside force of rebels. Which means this cave is known to slaves held by the ruler of the land - the one you'd expect to have the highest security! It seems like it was probably fairly widely known then, and peaceful, obedient thralls don't know where the runaway slaves and revolutionaries live.

It really sounds like they had a whole underground operating there - a massive operation smuggling Hadorians to the mountains, then either setting them up as outlaws or helping them across to Brethil. It might even have been led by Aerin; at least she knew about it. There was a whole network Turin could have tapped into and led, to at the least cause major problems for Brodda and his mob.

(The ultimate goal wouldn't be to free Dor-lomin; it's too close to Angband, and unprotected by the Eldar. The best outcome would be to drive the Easterlings out, and then evacuate the country to Brethil before the Orcs turned up.)

(Weirdly, Turin leaves Dor-lomin thinking of his three choices: to stay and help them, to find Finduilas, or to go after Morwen. He decides to leave Morwen in Doriath, finds Finduilas dead... and then just sort of forgets about Dor-lomin in favour of hanging out with the Haladin until Nienor shows up.)

hS
True. I always wondered why he didn't bring the men of Brethil over to help...

However, it is possible to free Dor-Lomin, and the Beleriand as a whole too. All one needs is the element of surprise, and a champion whose destiny is to kill Morgoth himself. And guess who has both of those? People of Dor-Lomin do!

And I am now imagining a guerilla force ambushing Orcs and then retreating to safety, until their numbers are low enough that the remaining ones could be picked off. Then a small force infiltrates Angband and distracts the beasties still left there, while a slightly larger force, led by Turin, confronts Morgoth himself, and Turin stabs him dead. Throw in some Ents as back-up and Morgoth won't stand a chance.
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Old 02-07-2023, 10:04 AM   #324
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However, it is possible to free Dor-Lomin, and the Beleriand as a whole too. All one needs is the element of surprise, and a champion whose destiny is to kill Morgoth himself. And guess who has both of those? People of Dor-Lomin do!

And I am now imagining a guerilla force ambushing Orcs and then retreating to safety, until their numbers are low enough that the remaining ones could be picked off. Then a small force infiltrates Angband and distracts the beasties still left there, while a slightly larger force, led by Turin, confronts Morgoth himself, and Turin stabs him dead. Throw in some Ents as back-up and Morgoth won't stand a chance.
Heyyyy now, don't go taking your prophecies out of order. The Second Prophecy of Mandos was given after the War of Wrath, "when Fionwe and the sons of the Valar returned to Valmar and told of all the things that had been done" (HoME V). According to my research, the only Turin-prophecy available during his lifetime was the one made by Andreth of the Beorings: that he would return from death at the Last Battle - in context apparently the War of Wrath - and kill Ancalagon.

Which is probably just as well; it would be pretty embarassing if Turin's shenanigans managed to bring about the end of the world on accident.

That said, you're right that retaking Dor-lomin is feasible - or rather, retaking Hithlum. Start with Turin not revealing his presence to Brodda, but waiting until Aerin was... anywhere other than right next to him. She can put him in touch with the Underground, and Turin can merrily build up an outlaw army. Let's assume he learnt the lesson of the Nirnaeth - don't reveal your hand too early, and never trust an Easterling. So the Outlaws 2.0 stay undercover until they are ready. Then, all at once, they strike.

Practically every Easterling hall in Dor-lomin goes on fire in a single night, largely at the hands of their slave-wives. There are a lot of casualties from Hadorian women letting themselves burn with their 'husbands', because this is still a Turin story and we need angst; but the fighting strength of the Outlaws is not affected. Turin's host sweeps the Easterlings from Dor-lomin, out through Hithlum (which is just as afflicted, because of course they've been trading slaves around), and out onto Anfauglith. And then... Turin retakes Barad Eithel and fortifies Eithel Sirion against Morgoth.

The only time Barad Eithel was taken was when the army defending it left its walls because of Gwindor. Turin knows that story very well. He will not let his men leave the castle, and therefore, Hithlum will be secure.

Though come to think of it, Gwin was brought down by the surprise reveal that his kinsman was a prisoner in Angband. Hmmm... does Morgoth have any of Turin's close kin captive? ^_~

hS
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Old 02-07-2023, 11:12 AM   #325
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Hmmm... does Morgoth have any of Turin's close kin captive? ^_~

hS

Why, of course not! Why would he have any of Turin's kin captive? Turin is neither important enough nor skilled enough to cause Morgoth any trouble! That's Turgon, who is running around Beleriand slaying Morgoth's creatures everywhere he finds them! So much so that Morgoth is actually scared of him, and is sending Orcs out to catch him! And then Turgon slays them as well! Morgoth gets desperate and keeps sending more and more, who Turgon happily slays each time!

Why do you think he was scared of Turgon so much anyway? Well, now you know. ^_~

And there is his fear that his doom would come from Turgon, maybe because of that little prophecy that Turgon will one day kill him...hmm...?
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Old 02-23-2023, 02:43 PM   #326
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The Name, the Blame

How much are Turin/Hurin/Maeglin responsible for the destruction of three Elven realms?
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Old 02-23-2023, 04:21 PM   #327
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How much are Turin/Hurin/Maeglin responsible for the destruction of three Elven realms?
Hmm. First, two caveats:

1/ In Tolkien's World, fate and free will coexist. Aragorn's role in the War of the Ring was heavily prophesied by at least four people (Malbeth twice, Ivorwen, Gilraen, Elrond), but he's still a hero for it. Likewise, just because a realm was fated to fall, doesn't mean the blame is any less. (Ditto for curses, looking at you Mormegil.)

2/ The prime responsibility for the destruction of a realm goes to the one who destroyed it. But that's a cheap answer, so we'll ignore the attacking parties. All three realms were secure prior to the actions of certain people.

Gondolin - Maeglin directly caused the fall of Gondolin. He betrayed it to the Enemy! Hurin didn't do that, and he was tied to a chair for years. Depending on the telling, Maeglin might even have *sold* the city's location in exchange for a promise to rule it and have Idril for his own. Sure, he had a tragic backstory - but he was an adult, and responsible for his actions. (Idril's mum died on the Ice because Feanor burnt the ships, but you don't see her destroying cities because of it.)

Nargothrond - Turin and Orodreth share the blame here. Nargothrond's security was its secrecy, but Turin knowingly argued to break that, and Orodreth knowingly agreed. I'm not complaining about his desire to take the fight to Morgoth here! But it was entirely possible to send armies out of the city without building a whacking great bridge to point out where the door was. The final battle could have happened and the city remained intact had Turin, with Orodreth's permission, not revealed its location.

Doriath - Not Hurin's fault. He's one contributor of many. Even in the angriest story, he may not even know the curse is real, and he doesn't make his outlaws attack the guards. The destruction of Doriath is...

... well, the first time, I'd say Thingol's fault. In every version he went back on his deal with the dwarves, and in most he treated them shamefully. He was gold-mad and jewel-mad, and all because his pride wouldn't let him not display the Silmaril and keep using the cursed gold.

The second destruction of Doriath is trickier. We can't fault Dior for not giving in to Maedhros' threats, but who else is there? Melian, maybe - she lifted the Girdle, knowing what would happen - but Dior established his rule after she was gone. I suppose the blame has to fall on him after all - he tried to rebuild the old Doriath, ignoring the fact that its primary defense was gone. Nothing in the second fall indicates that Menegroth was as heavily fortified as the last known Elvish city in Beleriand should be.

hS
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Old 02-24-2023, 03:07 PM   #328
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In answering Urwen's question, one must keep in mind the nature of the War of the Jewels. It was fundamentally unwinnable. The Noldor, even allied with Men and the Dwarves of the Ered Luin, could never defeat Morgoth. They might hinder his plans, stymie his movements and slow his advances. They might even win a battle or two, but they could never win the War. The destruction of the Noldorin realms in Beleriand was inevitable. Doriath was not a Noldorin realm, and I will address it last.

Nargothrond - Ulmo warned Finrod and Turgon "to prepare for a day of evil, and to establish a retreat, lest Morgoth should burst from Angband and overthrow the armies of the North." He did not suggest that either could withstand Morgoth. The Fall of Nargothrond was the result of a succession of errors, with Turin, his bridge and the open defense of the realm being just the latest in a series of contributing events. And he was under Morgoth's curse. There is a detailed thread on Morgoth's curse upon Hurin and his house in the Books Forum with the most recent posts being within the past year. Finrod may have erred in admitting Curufin, Celegorm and their people into Nargothrond after Dagor Bragollach. Curufin and Celegorm poisoned the realm and suborned his rule. Their speeches after the arrival of Beren caused Nargothrond to cower in fear and avoid open conflict. Orodreth allowed this policy to continue. All these things contributed to the fall of Nargothrond, but it was inevitable. Turin bore some responsibility for the fall of Nargothrond but certainly no more than others.

Gondolin - Maeglin's treason may have revealed the location of Gondolin and the routes to enter Tumhalad. He may have been a contributory cause without which Gondolin might have survived for some time longer. But, it was Turgon who rejected the counsel of Ulmo conveyed to him by Tuor, "Love not too well the work of thy hands... the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea." If Turgon had heeded the words of Ulmo, his kingdom, though not his city, may have survived.

Doriath is more complicated. It was not a Noldorin Kingdom. It did not fall under Mandos' prophecy (or curse as some have said), at least until... Thingol decided to be clever and sent Beren off to secure a Silmaril, tying Doriath into the ill-fate of the Noldor. And, Thingol could have swallowed his pride and returned the Silmaril to the Feanoreans. Hurin only brought the Nauglamir which led Thingol to summon Dwarven smiths. But the Nauglamir was an excuse for the Dwarves. They were seduced by the Silmaril.
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Old 02-24-2023, 04:36 PM   #329
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If we accept The Wanderings of Hurin, then he bears a great deal of the blame for the destruction of Brethil.
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Old 02-24-2023, 06:24 PM   #330
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With that, I agree, both with your conclusion and your caveat.
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