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Old 07-14-2003, 07:21 PM   #1
elle
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Pipe Haldir

I have been wondering this for along time, so I decided to ask the "experts".

Is Haldir, son of Halmir of Brethil, from the Silmarillion the same Haldir of Lothlorien, from the Lord of the Rings?

Don't get me wrong, I know Haldir from the Silmarillion was slain in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, but could it possibly be that the same happened to Haldir as to Glorfindel?

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Old 07-14-2003, 07:31 PM   #2
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No. The 'Haldir' in The Silmarillion is a man, not an elf.

Moving to Novices and Newcomers.
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Old 07-15-2003, 12:54 PM   #3
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Sting

It is easy to confuse a lot of characters who share a name, but they are different.

What happened to Glorfindel?

And does anyone know if anything actually happened to our Haldir? Did he fight/die in the three assaults on Lorien, or join Celeborn in East Lorien when it was set up after the former Lorien's demise?
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Old 07-15-2003, 02:15 PM   #4
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Sting

The most common Glorfindel theory out there says that after staying in the Halls of Waiting for a while, he was re-embodied by the Valar and sent back for reasons unknown. He probably came back in the mid-Second Age or during the early Third Age with the Istari. He took up residence in Imladris with Elrond.

In the Third Age, he helped conquer the Witch-King of Angmar by leading a force from Imladris and pinning the Witch-King between him and Earnur of Gondor. He was the one who delivered that famous prophecy about the Witch-king (that he won't be killed by any man). After that, the next time we hear of him is at Imladris, during the Council at Imladris where he said that it was folly to throw away the Ring or something along those lines.

As for Haldir, we don't know what happened to him after the Fellowship met him in Lothlorien. It is quite possible that he was with Celeborn in East Lorien after the War of the Ring. He's another one of those mysteries.
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Old 07-15-2003, 08:43 PM   #5
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Pipe

Haldir in the Silmarillion was a man? I missed that, where does it say? Anyways I guess whatever happened the Haldir the "elf" is a mystery, like said before. It sometimes would be handy if Tolkien wrote more about some characters like Legolas' appearance, and Haldir's doings, and other things we just don't know. Well I am getting off topic now. Haldir was a cool character, althought he was not there much in the books. In the movies it sucked when PJ made him die! It was sad [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] . Oh and Finwe, very well said above about Glorfindel [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] .

[ July 15, 2003: Message edited by: elle ]
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Old 07-17-2003, 10:07 AM   #6
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Sting

Yup, Haldir was a Man in the Silmarillion, a Man from Brethil.

BTW, Glorfindel was the exception, not the rule for Elves. After staying in Mandos for a while, Elves can be "reincarnated" in bodies identical to their previous one. But Men can't do that, or so we think, because Tolkien didn't tell us if they could. Glorfindel came back (the only Elf who did) either in the middle of the Second Age or with the Istari in the early Third Age. Since Haldir of Brethil was a Man, there was no possible way that he could have been "reincarnated" as Haldir of Lothlorien. It was just that they had the same name.

[ July 17, 2003: Message edited by: Finwe ]
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But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fanor, and there he slew Finw King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finw alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.
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Old 07-17-2003, 11:30 AM   #7
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It was written somewhere that Glorfindel was reincarnated and sent back to Middle-earth by the Valar to aid in the wars against Sauron, having much experience in the fight against Morgoth and being a wise and powerful Elf-lord. I don't know if this theory can be supported by Tolkien's main works (why not send back Fingolfin, or Gil-galad, or someone with even more power), but nonetheless this is how Tolkien justified his return. I shall search for the body of work in which this was written and try to provide the exact text.
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Old 07-17-2003, 11:52 AM   #8
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Sting

How did Glorfindel die in the first place?

So the first Haldir was a man. He must be in close kinship with the Elves because he is on some of their family trees.

I think we all would like to know more about Legolas's appearence but even more so about his family. There is Oropher his grandfather, Thranduil his father, but who in Middle-Earth was his mother? *Sigh* [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] We may never know.
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Old 07-17-2003, 11:59 AM   #9
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Glorfindel died battling a Balrog during the Fall of Gondolin in the First Age. He was an elven lord under Turgon.
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Old 07-17-2003, 10:44 PM   #10
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Silmaril

Because Haldir from the Silmarillion has elves on his family tree I thought he was an elf. Oopsies, that was my bad. But not I know more, thanx fellow BarrowDowners! I knew I should of asked you experts. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
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Old 07-18-2003, 12:17 AM   #11
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Silmaril

Kind of off topic, but was Haldir even mentioned in TTT? I would have liked to know what really happened to him, cuz him getting killed in the movie really was depressing!
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Old 07-18-2003, 12:27 AM   #12
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Glorfindel's reincarnation is not a "theory" - it's fact. Tolkien even wondered himself if Glorfindel was considered one of the Istari, but decided he wasn't. However, he did return to Middle-earth as stated - one writing has him arriving with Gandalf; in another has him arriving late in the Second Age.

Check out this site's Middle-earth FAQ. Sharku has written an entry about this.
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Old 07-21-2003, 02:16 PM   #13
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Sting

Quote:
Haldir in the Silmarillion was a man? I missed that, where does it say?
I thought that you thought that he was a woman. Oh what an idiot I am...
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