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Old 02-22-2022, 07:25 PM   #561
Galadriel55
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So I was going through the thread to pull together the Lost Texts. At first I wanted to just memory dump it, I am confident I would get >50% of the lyrics, and more like >80% if you allow minor discrepancies or the occasional older version. I can even recite Nainie, but it would be missing it's accents.

Then I decided that it's better to be systematic and go through the thread to make sure it's the real thing and not "what G55 totally misremembered".

Then I realized that the thread is 14 pages long , and actually reading all of it would take forever. The original drafts are all front-loaded, but the edits have been ongoing and are probably more back-loaded...

So far I came to the compromise of skimming the thread to copy/paste long sections of text, which I then edit by memory to reflect the latest versions. Which still leaves the very likely possibility of me not remembering it properly... but the alternative is actually 14 pages of, let's be honest here, frequently Wall of Text posts. If it needs to happen, I won't actually mind doing it, it's been great fun to skim through our early comments and drafts. It would just take forever and a day. My compromise to the compromise was to comment-select words I am not sure of, that I think were changed but maybe weren't. And we could just review those.



But speaking of our early drafts, good times! That was the first time in my life I stooped to buying instant noodles, because it was either that or eating nothing, as literally all my awake free time was spent on this project. That's the life! But the early versions sound so odd and unfamiliar. We could do a whole collage of "discarded versions". It's like BOLT or something. It's fascinating.



...Aaaanyway, I made it to post 57 and need to break off, and this is sort of a bookmark.




As for Heart and Dream, I don't have anything to present yet. It's been a little rough lately and inspiration is somewhat drained.
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Old 02-23-2022, 04:27 PM   #562
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By sheer luck, my phone has cached the English Libretto. I've rescued a copy; it's stripped the links out, but the lyrics are all there. I'll put it into your new doc in the next few days.

hS
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Old 02-24-2022, 07:15 PM   #563
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https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...lPVPBaYlsW/pub

^ The new published version of the doc.


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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
By sheer luck, my phone has cached the English Libretto. I've rescued a copy; it's stripped the links out, but the lyrics are all there. I'll put it into your new doc in the next few days.
My first thought was - hurray, this will save us a lot of energy in reconstructing it.

My second thought was - Oh no! You've catalogued 20 years of recorded performances there, but those links are stripped too! Thankfully I think most of them were also linked in the thread at some point or other, so there is a good chance of rebuilding at least the Appendix links. I might get onto that at some point...


Update: I put in the links to the videos, live actions, and instrumentals, since I've been cataloguing those at the start of the thread. I am only missing the video to Minions - which I am not sure if we have a final version of? unfortunately I don't remember the nice way you've formatted and called the links initially, but they are linked. Both to all the individual songs, and on the bottom of the document.


Update #2: in unrelated news, Lora's website is miraculously back up again! The web giveth, and the web taketh away.
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Old 03-17-2022, 09:35 AM   #564
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I noticed a certain pattern. When I am RL busy, I tend to neglect this project, and it tends to stall. But when after a stressful period I suddenly have some free time, I tend to blurt out music scores containing lots of excitement and energy and inside jokes between myself and myself.

All this to say... I had some free time, but still feeling quite tired and not up to tackling Heart again (which I would have to re-study again - and also not sure yet which key works best), I thought I would sketch Luthien's next song. And then I thought I'd play around with some instruments to see what I would want for the score. And, while playing around, I kinda scored the whole thing: The Sons of Feanor.

On the whole? Not bad, but has less pizzazz than it did in my head, so I have a low threshold for redoing all of it or bits of it as needed. I like the ending, I think that was the best part. I struggled with Luthien's melody in the bloodzoning proper ("I respect your proud and ancient blood"), it didn't seem to be able to fit. Eventually I got the first and last lines down with certainty, but the second line seemed to fit three notes into the space of two, and I still don't know how. I just elected to change up her melody for that line. But to get to this stage, I reverted to listening to the recordings at 0.5 speed. Do not recommend. It's horrible. I tried 0.25 first, and you cannot even make out the note at this speed, it's just all the little imperfections magnified to the point where all you hear is imperfections. Fun.

(PS: only 2 and a half minutes long - I think this is the shortest piece we've done in a while!)

(PPS: random observation - I've noticed for a long time that the music sounds very different based on which headphones I'm wearing. And this one sounds absolutely awful in my new earphones. Ugh. I hate that my good comfortable earphones keep breaking down on me, and I need to jump around with the audio devices.)
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Old 03-21-2022, 10:00 AM   #565
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Okay so this is four posts in one.

1/ YAY MUSIC. I need to listen to the original Russian version again, because I do not know this song very well, but the parts I could do off the cuff sounded good. I like the contrast between their instruments! I will try and record it... um... At Some Point, because:

2/ I'm still piecing my motivation to do anything about anything back together since the nasty orcses took my stuff. I have a story which I partially rescued, and I've rewritten like... three lines of the missing part. I've gotten through a couple of projects involving making things on actual paper, I think because my even my subconscious has to admit they're not going to get deleted, but doing anything digital has been a struggle.

(Unrelated but similar, Celebestel's had a rubbish time with the non-plague winter bugs, so she's not had the energy to try and master Heart yet. We haven't forgotten!)

3/ I am not at all sure why the videos are still up, because they're definitely linked to the account that's now gone. Maybe I had a Youtube account which was originally set up separate, and has now separated itself back out again? I don't know. At some point I'll move them across to a safer account, but, well, see point 1. It looks like the last comment on Minions was you saying "when it's finished"... yeah, looks like I was hoping to update the art a little on that one. I'll have a dig and see where I got to.

4/ I was going to post this a couple of weeks ago, but again see #1... my daughter has been watching Sofia the First lately, and spent a few days singing the villain showdown song. You know the style: hero sings about their defiance, villain mocks them for being weak, hero declares that they have Love and therefore win, end of story.

Which got me to thinking... the Zong doesn't do that. Finrod, the hero of the story, after whom the whole musical is named... loses his showdown song to Sauron. And then he just dies. No second confrontation: he dies, and Luthien has to pick up the pieces. That's true in the Silm & Lay, too: Finrod never wins a fight in Tol Sirion, and if Luthien hadn't shown up, Beren would just have been eaten by a different wolf.

Which is a really brave move by Tolkien, taking his most sympathetic character and making him one of the biggest losers in the Silmarillion (even Morgoth gets to stomp Fingolfin!). But it also highlights the message of the Zong for me, which is: duty isn't enough. It's better than vengeance, absolutely - but when you come up against it, duty won't get you through. For that (says the Zong), you need Love - and Finrod realises this, even though he still doesn't quite comprehend it. (In fact, I think Truth is largely him saying that it can't be comprehended.)

I mean, we've known that was their chosen message for a while, but it just struck me how well they worked Finrod's canonical loss into the theme.

(And Luthien's Showdown also breaks with the genre - because she flat-out doesn't let Sauron get a word in. He doesn't get to tell her how weak she is - she's not having any of it. "Light and Dark can both be damned / Love is the only law that counts!")

hS
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Old 03-21-2022, 11:15 PM   #566
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1/ No rush. I know I am behind too on some recordings, which will get done... dunno when, but at least it's warm enough now that I don't have to preheat the car, so potentially soon.

2/ That's very understandable. And while it's exciting to see progress, I also keep reminding myself that this project won't run away. It'll still be there a bit later, when there's a better mood for it. I am a believer in doing it with inspiration - we could force ourselves into scheduled productivity, but it's supposed to be a fun thing and our best effort, and you need the right mood for that. So, as above - there's no rush. Whenever you feel like it again, it'll be there.

As for Heart - I think none of us have really had the energy to quite master it. Whenever we're ready, we'll give it a go.

3/ The Youtube videos are a mystery. I got no clue. But, again, no rush.

4/ So I haven't even heard of this Sophia before, so I looked up the song out of curiosity. I thought the villain was doing a pretty good job, but yeah, the hero just goes "I have Love" and that settles it.

As for Luthien... I mean, it's a little different in the Sil and the Zong, and the Script - they are all slightly different Luthiens, and different scenarios. Finrod - well, he's the main character of the Zong, but in the Sil he is not the hero, he's the hero's best friend. So if you think of it that way, the hero is Beren, who actually gets chance after chance. But I agree that Finrod's death is somewhat unique in its, hmm, disproportionate lack of scope; an inglorious end, with his final effort spent not striking against his main foe but merely one of the many minions sent to torment him. And it would have been unsung and futile if not for Luthien. In a way it is more realistic than the other epic death scenes of The Sil - less Hector and Achilles, if you know what I mean. And I think this is reflected perfectly in the Zong, first in Prison Duet, and later in Truth ("fulfilled my part at last, not knowing of the price"). It's interesting that fan fics, Zong included, really want to give Finrod a final moment, a final closure, just because his death is so... unsatisfactory, unresolved. It leaves you hanging, thinking - what, this is it? But yes, it is just it. And "he walks with his father in Eldamar" or some such, which suggests that he is healed, but somehow we really want to see the healing, more so with Finrod I think than most other deaths in The Sil.

But Luthien... Well, Sil Luthien has Huan, and Zong only goes to Tol Sirion, but taking the character as a whole rather than in details, there is something in common. She has Love, yes - but I think she is more than the "I have Love and that settles it" variety of hero. Specific to the Zong, it is her absolute certainty and commitment which seem to fuel her power in the face of Sauron's challenge, contrary to Finrod's guilt and doubt. But in both Zong and Silm, the real question is not whether one has love (many do), but what you do with it. Surely Luthien wasn't the only heartbroken person in the history of the world. But she gave everything to it with such devotion, with the conviction that the rules of the world themselves would change before their love fails. I sometimes ask myself if Luthien got special treatment because of her Maia powers and being the fairest maiden in the land and all that, and I conclude that the feats she performs while alive certainly rely on her powers, and the qualities of determination and courage are not limited to her alone. But the real miracle comes after her death. So I ask, would this miracle happen if it were someone else - some indifferent looking tone-deaf person with a nervous stutter and no Maia for a parent? And I think that in Tolkien's world - yes it would. I see no reason that any person, mortal or immortal, could not likewise beg for audience with the Valar and with Eru himself - and I have the sense that a determined call would not be refused. And if Eru was moved to pity and changed the rules of the universe for her, it would be for reasons other than her pretty face or pretty voice, because he is Eru and knows better than that. Love comes in many forms, and dedication to love is less rare than the Lay would have us believe, but I think such blind but utter faith that whatever happens, this love would outlast everything else, that it is more certain than every aspect of existence - that is rare. I am not sure that the same logic could be applied to the real world - but then I am too skeptical and cautious to be Luthien in the first place. I suppose that's where the whole faith thing comes in, that you just don't accept any reality other than the one where you and your love can be together.

...Or I am very wrong, and just trying to rationalize some of the more cliche elements of the story.

Sorry, that was a lot of rambling. I'm not sure I am making any sense anymore.

But on a slightly tangential note, I find it interesting too how we react to the outcome of the miracle - Beren and Luthien returning to life but Luthien giving up her immortality. There it is: "giving up" immortality - when, in reality, within the schemata of the legendarium, she is not giving anything up, she is receiving the Gift. And of course we read it as her sacrifice, and how mortals of ME would interpret it as a sacrifice as well - but it's interesting how that would be perceived by Elves, and by Luthien herself. The Script was leaning heavily toward the "giving up" viewpoint on both counts. I don't recall that The Sil ascribes it any judgement one way or the other that could not be said to come from "mortal retellings" though. Would the Elves of Doriath see it as a loss, or as a gain? How about Elves in Aman, who heard the tale but have not been exposed to as much of Morgoth's influence? Would Luthien see it as giving something up? I suppose that taps more into the question of how Elves perceive death - and if, perhaps, there were ever any Elves who were jealous of the mortals for being able to leave the world.

(One day I will translate Dawn, which is another great fan fic on the topic which offers some interesting perspectives too, and we can compile observations on how fics tend to treat all of these issues )
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Old 04-11-2022, 07:59 PM   #567
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An Aside (with music)

This is a total aside from the Zong, it is only related... well, to be perfectly honest, it isn't. But ever since the Zong I have been spending more time learning about the great Tolkien bards of the last three decades, and some strings are a little dangerous to pull because they aren't just a ball of yarn, they are a whole freaking tapestry, and good luck unwinding that. Needless to say, I have enriched my repertoire with a few choice songs of escalating obscurity, and two of them are very Tolkienesque, so I thought I would share them.

The first one is a rendition of A Elbereth Gilthoniel - one that I heard performed by Aire and Saruman way back but was not impressed, and am still not impressed by their version. But I happened to hear it on this track and it blew me out of my chair (don't click on the main track of the page, go to the one on the bottom left, with the title "A Элберет Гилтониэль"). Why didn't I like Aire's? For one thing, that version misses 3 stanzas, one in Elvish and two in RL language, and it's the last two stanzas which really make the song something. I actually heard a number of people sing the short version, including Lora Bocharova, but only this one had the full length. Second, Aire makes the melody more classic - proper beat and classical cadence, as opposed to the more medieval bard style of Firnwen & co. What do I do when I like a song? Translate it, obviously. Except that I am missing a bunch of Elvish from the second stanza - it is nowhere to be found on the internet! The only offerings were sound-alike gibberish which had even fewer actual Elvish words than my take. So here goes, and, as they say, forgive the Elvish.

A Elbereth Gilthoniel,
Silivren penna miriel
O menel aglar elenath!
Na-chaered palan-diriel
O galadhremmin ennorath,
Fanuilos, le linnathon
Ve linde le ca Valimar
Nef aear, si nef aearon!

A Elbereth Gilthoniel
Mimonien an diriel, [mi moni emyn?]
A calad amon in fanyar
Nu coe lome gil estel
Nu remmirath an mortiel
An tunyer aman calion [araman? ancalion?]
??? ve don tariel
Nef aear, si nef aearon!

A Elbereth Gilthoniel,
Who sees all roads on which I tread,
Shine in the dungeons of the night -
A ray of hope amid the dread.
Two western wings, as white as snows,
Have raised the lands of kings to soar
Above the web of twilit roads
On this side, on the Hither Shore.

A Elbereth Gilthoniel,
Whose gaze can pierce through darkest night,
Unlatch a gate among the clouds
Into the sheen of starry light.
Who’d look beneath the ash of years?
My journey numbers many leagues.
And yet the heart stays always here,
On this side of the Sund’ring Seas.

Through fear and pain, through night and war
Lead me, my star, and guide me true.
For those who followed me before
I now hold answer before you.
The cold is fierce, and dark our road,
Our home abandoned, door is sealed,
But let my song become my shield,
Your silver ray - become my sword.

Illuminate our weary roads
Upon this distant earth, Starbright!
Defy the clouds, the dark and cold,
Shine in the sky in their despite.
Our time has come, our doom awaits,
And, ever guided by your light,
I now accept this battle, like
The steel accepts the sheath’s embrace.

(Maybe I've had altogether too much Finrod in my life lately, but I can't help but think that if this was sung by a specific rather than a generic Noldo, it has to be Finrod. ^.^)


The other song I did not translate, because thankfully someone else did! It's a very good translation, though it does deviate a tiny bit. I am sort of glad to see I am not the only crazy Bilbo around, that other people are also digging up incredibly geeky texts and translating them into the Common Speech. Meet The Ballad of Fingolfin, also known by many other names (translation lyrics in the comments). Musically, I rather like Saruman's take here (yes, from Aire and Saruman). More literally, the lyrics are:
Do not ask me to praise him -
Day would not be brightened by a candle.
And what is glory but rust on a name…
Listen, here is what I will say about my king -

How he was generous in friendship,
How he knew how to laugh,
How he loved mirth,
And sang better than any minstrel!

How he knew how to keep his word,
How he paid for another’s sin,
How faithful a brother he was,
And how by a brother he was betrayed.

How we walked in the frigid night
And hewed graves in the ice with our swords,
How the hilts were welded to our hands
And tears froze in our eyes,

How the tattered silk of our proud banners
Framed the calmness of dead faces,
How curses froze like ice upon our lips,
And words of prayer died in our hearts…

From sliced open palms, like from goblets,
We drank our blood on the funerals like wine -
And our liege wept and sang with us,
He was always one with us in everything.

Let another sing of victories -
I will sing to you of woes.
He saw his people dying
And cursed his bitter oath.

We have lost everything - only honour remains,
And the glory of futile battles,
And the tinsel flattery of lavish tales,
And the empty lies of songs of praise…

We lost everything to the glory of the gods -
And their curse has become our reward.
Our reward was loss and pain,
Oblivion of the dead, exile of the living.

And when he left for his final battle,
I knew that he would not return.
He said that he will avenge everything - alone.
I could not look him in the eye.

I only saw how his steed bore him northward,
How his sky-blue cloak flew behind him,
How beat the flame of the golden locks
And his battle horn sang farewell…

Let another lie about the number of wounds,
Let another lie about every blow,
Let him lie that the Foe was mighty as a mountain,
And that my king was weak before him -

I will say only this - I was not there.
I will say - I cannot forgive myself now.
I will say… Well, what can I say…
Do not ask me to praise him…

I love this song because it is so perfect... Of that duel Orcs do not boast and Elves do not sing - so how do you write a song about Fingolfin that says everything, without saying any of this? Well, this is how. I love it. Now, Fingolfin didn't have blond hair, and I'm not sure what the "glory of the gods" means, but details aside I thought it's brilliant.

(This is also probably the reason I haven't posted any new Zongian music lately... So now you know.)
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Old 04-22-2022, 10:23 AM   #568
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Some long overdue recordings

I finally recorded Dream... after like a million takes of still not being happy, here's what made me least dissatisfied: Luthien's part. Then I sang Beren too, because I like the song - and that made me remember a couple things I have blissfully forgotten. Firstly, singing from memory, I totally forgot Beren's new Purpose line, and screwed up his words in the end a little. Goot thing we didn't have to reconstruct the Zong from memory. Secondly, I am rubbish at being consistent with the start of the phrases. I don't even match to myself. I wanted to sing along to your recording so that we would match beats and it wouldn't sound horribly off-synch, but now it's gone into the Google Void. Also, I was gonna play around with the harmonies and make sure that it sounds clean, because the worst thing you can do in a song is attempted but failed harmony. Do you still happen to have your recording saved somewhere?


Next up: Sons of Feanor. All the parts, and Luthien alone. As always, I am not really happy with it, but I suspect I'll never be - so here is what is, until one day I might redo the lot of it. (And I think I also don't remember the Feanorians' words that well either, now that I've looked at our Libretto again... I should stop doing this "sing by memory cause of course I know it!" thing)
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Old 05-04-2022, 07:08 AM   #569
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[Crawls out of the depths of the Great Barrow] I... liiiive...

Ahem. ^_^ It's slightly past the end of my lunchbreak, so this is going to be little except a bare link:

10 - Dream - Complete video

No subtitles as yet, and I'm happy to adjust things if they need it; I just wanted to return with something worth posting.

The final shot of Beren under the arches leads directly into Camp, which in turn will lead directly into Heart.

"Sons of Feanor" doesn't use any new art (it's the Red Nargothrond set from the second half of Quarrel), so should be relatively quick to put together once I actually figure out the recording.

hS
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Old 05-04-2022, 01:27 PM   #570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
[Crawls out of the depths of the Great Barrow] I... liiiive...
All hail!

You can't believe how exciting it is to see a new post on this thread, regardless of the post content.

...actually, who am I kidding, you probably totally can.

That is to say: SQUEEEEEEEE!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
That is... (somewhat unexpectedly) impressively good. I am off tune in one place but it will have to keep for now. I love Beren's part. And - did you re-record the duo section? Because this matches surprisingly well given that I didn't have your recording to match to when I sang my part. It sounds awesome! And it integrates well with all the musical bits. I actually did not expect it to come together this well.
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Old 05-04-2022, 01:53 PM   #571
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post

That is to say: SQUEEEEEEEE!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
That is... (somewhat unexpectedly) impressively good. I am off tune in one place but it will have to keep for now. I love Beren's part. And - did you re-record the duo section? Because this matches surprisingly well given that I didn't have your recording to match to when I sang my part. It sounds awesome! And it integrates well with all the musical bits. I actually did not expect it to come together this well.
I didn't have to rerecord anything! The only thing I did was shift half of my final line forward by a fraction of a second; everything else was perfectly synced. I was totally expecting masses of issues, but it just... worked.

I think that means you did a really good job on the instrumental.

(I've also added a couple more of the photos to the Libretto, because... I was bored. Still lots to go!)

hS

Edit: Aaaaand I've just sneakily managed to get the collection of links back into the end of the Libretto too. ^_~
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Old 05-04-2022, 02:58 PM   #572
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I didn't have to rerecord anything! The only thing I did was shift half of my final line forward by a fraction of a second; everything else was perfectly synced. I was totally expecting masses of issues, but it just... worked.
That is just baffling, but you know what - I'll take it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
(I've also added a couple more of the photos to the Libretto, because... I was bored. Still lots to go!)
Oooo, the Nargothrond songs! Very pretty!

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Originally Posted by Hui
Edit: Aaaaand I've just sneakily managed to get the collection of links back into the end of the Libretto too. ^_~
*gasps* What -- How -- Never mind how, but thank you!

I was trying to find a link to Prison Duet the other day - I remember saying something about a good quality recording which I thought would be easier to work with for the sketch. But while browsing the thread for it, I instead came across the Script comments, and started a reread, and got distracted. I kept putting off trying to scavenge all the links again, this is an enormous task!
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Old 05-11-2022, 06:25 AM   #573
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Originally Posted by G55
*gasps* What -- How -- Never mind how, but thank you!
A little bit of more careful copy-and-pasting, including pasting it into two places in succession to retain the formatting (ie, the links). It's a weird thing.

Anyway, just dropping in very quickly to say: full recording of Sons of Feanor y/n? I was going to post it 20 minutes ago with a longer post, but I got sidetracked fixing a few miscues on my part...

hS
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Old 05-11-2022, 09:57 AM   #574
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Anyway, just dropping in very quickly to say: full recording of Sons of Feanor y/n? I was going to post it 20 minutes ago with a longer post, but I got sidetracked fixing a few miscues on my part...
Of all listening devices I only have my phone, which is really not meant to play music with any quality, but I can vouch at least for the cues that everything is on time! Yay!!!


EDIT: Listened to it from a computer now. This speaker tends to squeal all the higher frequencies, so Luthien sounds too loud - I'll leave the balancing of the volumes up to you, I don't have a reliable device to judge it by for the next few days. But it is excellent. The sigh of exasperation is brilliant. ^.^
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Old 05-11-2022, 03:03 PM   #575
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Another flyby link drop... I was gonna work on animating Sons tonight, but then remembered that we were still missing a link for Minions. A dig through the last conversation we had about it, several mishaps with missized animation sequences, and I think this is what we wanted it to look like:

13 - Sauron's Minions, current version.

Oh, I also got the subtitles onto Dream (and indeed this Minions), so yeah, a good evening.

hS
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Old 05-11-2022, 06:21 PM   #576
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Another flyby link drop... I was gonna work on animating Sons tonight, but then remembered that we were still missing a link for Minions. A dig through the last conversation we had about it, several mishaps with missized animation sequences, and I think this is what we wanted it to look like:

13 - Sauron's Minions, current version.

Oh, I also got the subtitles onto Dream (and indeed this Minions), so yeah, a good evening.

hS

Oh, that is awesome! Aaaaahhh, the cute gollums! And I dunno if it's my bad earphones actually coming in handy at last, or we did a good job with the scripted dissonance, but it sounds properly musically improper. Your Sauron is fabulous as usual. Dude is creepy. Not one you want to be displeased - or bored - when you're around.

I've been sorta slacking, I've been distracted by an exciting part in Dawn which I binge-translated over the last few weeks, at the cost of no new Zong music. I have sketches for a couple of the remaining pieces but no music. Here's the Hate sketch. I think the male parts are in their usual register, but worth a check. Melian might be a tad high for me, but I'm willing to give it a try, if the other parts work well - yea or nay? Might have to drop it down a smidge after it's done if I just can't hit the high part. Also, I noticed that V1 does a whole bunch more shenanigans with the end of Hate, mainly Melian repeating "what madness" an extra round of times, but also she sings the melody slightly differently - another trick I might resort to if I can't get the high note. Do you have any thoughts about how we'd want to make the ending for this piece?
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Old 05-12-2022, 06:21 AM   #577
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I've been sorta slacking, I've been distracted by an exciting part in Dawn which I binge-translated over the last few weeks, at the cost of no new Zong music. I have sketches for a couple of the remaining pieces but no music. Here's the Hate sketch. I think the male parts are in their usual register, but worth a check. Melian might be a tad high for me, but I'm willing to give it a try, if the other parts work well - yea or nay? Might have to drop it down a smidge after it's done if I just can't hit the high part. Also, I noticed that V1 does a whole bunch more shenanigans with the end of Hate, mainly Melian repeating "what madness" an extra round of times, but also she sings the melody slightly differently - another trick I might resort to if I can't get the high note. Do you have any thoughts about how we'd want to make the ending for this piece?
Seems good to me, but you know how I am with songs. I could follow the tune and sing along in my head, at any rate.

For the ending... I think I remember that, is that the version where everyone just sort of sings randomly over each other?

One thing I wonder... we held off on letting Thingol join in a "what madness" on the Aria, but would it work here? His lines are "wow, something bad happened to Finrod and it's entirely his own fault," to which Melian responds, "and will happen to you too, and btw it's totally your fault too". So having Thingol actually recognise and acknowledge that, once again, she's right, might work well. This is the last time we see them, so it'd be nice to let him at least slightly repent of his idiocy.

hS
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Old 05-12-2022, 08:22 AM   #578
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For the ending... I think I remember that, is that the version where everyone just sort of sings randomly over each other?
I guess it comes out that way, lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
One thing I wonder... we held off on letting Thingol join in a "what madness" on the Aria, but would it work here? His lines are "wow, something bad happened to Finrod and it's entirely his own fault," to which Melian responds, "and will happen to you too, and btw it's totally your fault too".
Wa-wa-wait, you think Thingol is talking about Nargothrond here? OMG, he totally could be talking about Finrod here. Maybe he was always supposed to talk about Finrod here. I thought he was talking about himself, the king who brought misfortune onto his own land - but I never realized he could also be talking about Finrod!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
So having Thingol actually recognise and acknowledge that, once again, she's right, might work well. This is the last time we see them, so it'd be nice to let him at least slightly repent of his idiocy.
So let's parse the singing all over each other to see what's actually happening in that version, and what we might actually use for ours.
Thingol stanza: Thingol sings main lines, C&C sing "echo" lovely wishes

Melian's stanza: Melian sings main line, Thingol joins in with her on "fell doom...kinsfolk", C&C echo

Madness #1 and #2: Melian sings alone, C&C echo. Both Madnesses are the same, musically and lyrics-wise.
The lyrics as they appear on Lora's site:
Thingol stanza: Daeron echoes (not that we would be using this)

Melian stanza: C&C echo

Madness: Melian sings alone, Thingol echoes "what madness have I done".
Looking back at V1 Aria, Thingol echoes "what madness have I done" only once in that 3-line passage, after the first line.



Conclusion: there's lots of flexibility and lots of combinations to choose from. So, question one - would it be a good thing for Melian to repeat Madness twice? If yes, then we can have C&C do the echo the first time, and Thingol do the echo the second time. If we only do it once, probably better to stick with C&C. However, Thingol could also sing the line together with Melian if we wanted to include all the characters without doubling that refrain.
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Old 05-12-2022, 02:01 PM   #579
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Wa-wa-wait, you think Thingol is talking about Nargothrond here? OMG, he totally could be talking about Finrod here. Maybe he was always supposed to talk about Finrod here. I thought he was talking about himself, the king who brought misfortune onto his own land - but I never realized he could also be talking about Finrod!
I think he thinks he is. The relevant section:

Quote:
FEANORIONS:
Finrod, we curse you, ever to be our foe
Damn you for riding forth to the Gates of Woe
Damn you fulfilling your oath while ours forever waits
Our hearts are growing colder with undying hate!

THINGOL:
I feel the earth begin to ring

FEANORIONS:
You are our enemy fore'er

THINGOL:
And on the wind a whispered treason

FEANORIONS:
You'll die in darkness and despair

THINGOL:
Fell doom has fallen on the King
Fell doom has fallen on the King
The artist of his own destruction
The lads curse Finrod, and Thingol has A Feeling that Doom has fallen on a king. He's interspersed with the lads literally cursing Finrod some more, so like... I feel like he's responding to that?

But then Melian comes in, and she talks to her husband: "Your throne will crumble into ash". Because, of course, the Quest of the Silmaril is ultimately the cause of the fall of Doriath. Sure, the immediate curse is on Finrod - but it won't end there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
So let's parse the singing all over each other to see what's actually happening in that version, and what we might actually use for ours.
Thingol stanza: Thingol sings main lines, C&C sing "echo" lovely wishes

Melian's stanza: Melian sings main line, Thingol joins in with her on "fell doom...kinsfolk", C&C echo

Madness #1 and #2: Melian sings alone, C&C echo. Both Madnesses are the same, musically and lyrics-wise.
The lyrics as they appear on Lora's site:
Thingol stanza: Daeron echoes (not that we would be using this)

Melian stanza: C&C echo

Madness: Melian sings alone, Thingol echoes "what madness have I done".
Looking back at V1 Aria, Thingol echoes "what madness have I done" only once in that 3-line passage, after the first line.

Conclusion: there's lots of flexibility and lots of combinations to choose from. So, question one - would it be a good thing for Melian to repeat Madness twice? If yes, then we can have C&C do the echo the first time, and Thingol do the echo the second time. If we only do it once, probably better to stick with C&C. However, Thingol could also sing the line together with Melian if we wanted to include all the characters without doubling that refrain.
Wait, C'n'C echo the madness line? Who are they calling mad? That's really thrown me. Ummm. I think unless you have a good idea for it, repeating the madness chorus just for the sake of it is probably... just... doing it for the sake of it, I don't know, it's late. Would it work if Thingol sang "I" along with Melian's "you", rather than as an echo?

(Putting together 'Sons' animation now; the boys are looming terribly around poor Luthien.)

hS
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Old 05-12-2022, 04:05 PM   #580
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I think he thinks he is. The relevant section:
That makes sense. He might think he is talking abiut Finrod, but doesn't realize it's actually about himself. Okay, I can take that.

Quote:
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Wait, C'n'C echo the madness line? Who are they calling mad? That's really thrown me. Ummm. I think unless you have a good idea for it, repeating the madness chorus just for the sake of it is probably... just... doing it for the sake of it, I don't know, it's late. Would it work if Thingol sang "I" along with Melian's "you", rather than as an echo?
Sorry, poor phrasing on my part. They sing the background "echo" lines, but they don't say "madness", they throw some general insults like "you are my enemy forever" and the like. Basically what we have.

Let's see what happens when we get there witb the music. It might be cool to include both musocal variations, but I agree that for lyrics one would suffice. Umm... Can we table that thought for now as to be revisited when we get there?
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Old 05-13-2022, 07:12 AM   #581
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Let's see what happens when we get there witb the music. It might be cool to include both musocal variations, but I agree that for lyrics one would suffice. Umm... Can we table that thought for now as to be revisited when we get there?
Agreed. I shall be guided by you in this matter.

Also!

Daughter of Thingol, listen: we've nothing left to lose...!

"Sons of Feanor" animation

I did consider having Luthien's symbol swirl into her "daylight" version in her last lines here (and stay that way for the Showdown), but decided it would get too confusing. I'd be interested in your view, though: the theory is that the second device (this one) might be her post-resurrection emblem. Given that the Zong doesn't go that far, this song is probably our best transition moment if we want to use it at all.

hS
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Old 05-13-2022, 09:43 AM   #582
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Agreed. I shall be guided by you in this matter.
Perhaps more pressing question for how I score the first verse is if/which of the Feanorings' lines did you imagine as an echo (or not). It probably won't matter once I get to it, I am just overcomplicating things. It's the job that never gets started that takes longest to finish. I should just get on with it, and then it suddenly won't matter which version we follow where.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Also!

Daughter of Thingol, listen: we've nothing left to lose...!

"Sons of Feanor" animation
YESSS!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I did consider having Luthien's symbol swirl into her "daylight" version in her last lines here (and stay that way for the Showdown), but decided it would get too confusing. I'd be interested in your view, though: the theory is that the second device (this one) might be her post-resurrection emblem. Given that the Zong doesn't go that far, this song is probably our best transition moment if we want to use it at all.
Tough one. I think my instinct is to agree that changing the devices would be confusing. But if we really want to, there's nothing to stop us - and I agree again, that if we were to do it, the place for it would either be here or at the end of Dream.
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Old 05-19-2022, 03:18 AM   #583
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Tough one. I think my instinct is to agree that changing the devices would be confusing. But if we really want to, there's nothing to stop us - and I agree again, that if we were to do it, the place for it would either be here or at the end of Dream.
I think we keep it as-is for now. I've maintained her "starry night" background scheme in my ideas for the Showdown, so having a bright sunny emblem would detract from that.

I can confirm that the Russian Zong remains perfect for mucking about with languages I don't speak: now I've got it running while I cut-and-paste Korean and Vietnamese into the right places.

hS
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