The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Announcements and Obituaries > The Barrow-Downs
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-24-2006, 02:21 PM   #1
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,184
Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Ainulindale in Latin

I've decided to put my (rather inexpert) Latin translation of the Ainulindale on my web space. If there are any Latin scholars out there who'd like to point out my grammatical mistakes, I'd certainly appreciate it.
Aiwendil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2006, 02:46 PM   #2
Anguirel
Byronic Brand
 
Anguirel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The 1590s
Posts: 2,825
Anguirel is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Well...I do wonder how you're declining "Ainur"-third declension neuter, as in "mare"?
__________________
Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter
-Il Lupo Fenriso
Anguirel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2006, 02:49 PM   #3
Formendacil
Dead Serious
 
Formendacil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers.
Posts: 3,265
Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Send a message via AIM to Formendacil Send a message via MSN to Formendacil
Sweet, sweet, sweet.

I love Latin, I love the Silm. Beautiful!

Another reason to try and actually learn more of the language...

Mmmm.... it looks so beautifully Catholic in Latin.
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
Formendacil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2006, 03:04 PM   #4
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,184
Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Quote:
Well...I do wonder how you're declining "Ainur"-third declension neuter, as in "mare"?
Well, since the Quenya singular is "Ainu", I decided to treat it as a fourth declension neuter like "cornu". I know, fourth declension neuter is extremely rare; but "Ainu" does rather look like "cornu" and "genu" to me.
Aiwendil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2006, 08:54 AM   #5
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Auspicious Wraith
 
Eomer of the Rohirrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,988
Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Shield

Love it. What better way to learn a language? Cheers Aiwendil!
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond

Last edited by Eomer of the Rohirrim; 07-03-2006 at 01:00 PM.
Eomer of the Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2006, 10:59 AM   #6
the guy who be short
Shadowed Prince
 
the guy who be short's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Thulcandra
Posts: 2,496
the guy who be short has just left Hobbiton.
It's sad, but I've bookmarked that as a resource. Far more incentive is given here than in those Cambridge textbooks. Thank you.
the guy who be short is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2006, 12:18 PM   #7
Ithaeliel
Cornus Caliga
 
Ithaeliel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Five-hundred-twenty-five thousand, six hundred minutes from here
Posts: 724
Ithaeliel has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Ithaeliel
Silmaril

That is amazing! How long did that take you?

I wish I could still read most of it... it seems like years since I took Latin, even though it's only been one.

Heh... it would be fun if it were written like Roman script (no spaces or punctuation).
__________________
That best portion of a good man's life,
His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love.
.................William Wordsworth
Ithaeliel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2006, 06:51 AM   #8
the guy who be short
Shadowed Prince
 
the guy who be short's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Thulcandra
Posts: 2,496
the guy who be short has just left Hobbiton.
Or 'u's.

(That would be a bit much for me.)
the guy who be short is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2006, 11:30 AM   #9
Nurumaiel
Vice of Twilight
 
Nurumaiel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: on a mountain
Posts: 1,139
Nurumaiel has just left Hobbiton.
How wonderful! For the past two years I've been studying Latin on and off. I've finally found a study method that works for me, and now I have inspiration to really study hard. Several other members of my family will be delighted as well.

Excellent work. I can only image how challenging and time-consuming it must be, but it is well-appreciated.
__________________
In the fury of the moment I can see the Master's hand
in every leaf that trembles, in every grain of sand.
Nurumaiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2007, 04:20 PM   #10
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,560
Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.
Wow! This is just beautiful! It must have been quite a lot of work. Only I must say, the declination of "Ainu" in plural looks quite... strange. But that's normal, of course, adopting words from other languages leads to transform them, and especially Latin had its share of it... but plural "Ainua" must've sounded terrible in Elves' ears

Anyway... great work!
(it occured to me that I might attempt to rewrite Ainulindalė in ancient greek, but who'd bother to read it? )
__________________
"But it is not your own Shire," said Gildor. "Others dwelt here before hobbits were; and others will dwell here again when hobbits are no more. The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out."
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2007, 05:34 PM   #11
Nogrod
Flame of the Ainulindalė
 
Nogrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves
Posts: 9,330
Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via MSN to Nogrod
Just great! I do love this text!

And it reminds me of my days at the university as well...

But to make a semi-critical point also: you seem to have adopted a systematic way of cutting the sentences with a comma before every "and". That was the first thing that I noticed. Then I started seeing more rhytmical punctuations that made me think of the style and sounding of the sentences written there. And they were getting increasingly familiar...

I don't know if that's a conscious decision, but for what I know that's the Vulgata Latin and not the classical or "archaic" or the "later" one.

Using Vulgata's Biblical dicta might be well grounded in regards to Tolkien's text (he himself seems to be somewhat happy with a similar kind of solution but the English version feels not as underlinedly Biblical as this Latin translation). I do not wish to challenge your choice if it's a deliberate one anyhow.

But to my ears it sounds more like the Vulgata (very humanly mistranslated as all the historians know and as such more than a child of it's time) than the Ur-Myth from the distant past I myself see Tolkien's Ainulindalė to "come from" or where I would see Tolkien to reach out.

But that's a minor point and anyway your version is just splendid!
__________________
Upon the hearth the fire is red
Beneath the roof there is a bed;
But not yet weary are our feet...

Last edited by Nogrod; 05-04-2007 at 05:38 PM.
Nogrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2007, 06:04 PM   #12
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,184
Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
I'm glad you like it.

Legate: Yes, some of the declensions of proper names look strange, partly because Quenya is itself a language that declines nouns. It's particularly striking in cases where the form we usually encounter in Quenya is the plural, since I based all decisions as to how to decline names on the nominative singular. So for example instead of starting with "Ainur" (the form we see most often) and trying to decide how to decline it, I started with "Ainu". I also made the somewhat dubious decision to treat "Ainu" as a (very rare) 4th declension neuter, since it resembles "cornu" and "genu". A lot of proper nouns were troublesome, actually - for instance, "Elf" - I vacillated between translating this as "nympha" (or something along those lines) and (what I eventually chose) just rendering it "Alfus".

Nogrod: The somewhat vulgate style was not really a conscious decision on my part, though I agree that the finished product looks more like late Imperial Latin than like Cicero. I think it's a result of my attempt to preserve the style of the English, which has a lot of ". . ., and . . ., and . . ." sort of stuff. But now that I think about it, I suppose I did also have the Vulgate Bible in the back of my mind - or rather the little of the Vulgate that I've actually read (about half of Genesis).

I have been working, rather haltingly, on the Valaquenta as well, and when (and if) I finish it, I'll put it up also.

Edit: Actually, I've just remembered it was not the Vulgata that I read parts of; it was the older Vetus Latina - though that's still "Late Latin" and differs significantly from the Classical style.

Last edited by Aiwendil; 05-04-2007 at 06:22 PM.
Aiwendil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2007, 06:49 PM   #13
Nogrod
Flame of the Ainulindalė
 
Nogrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves
Posts: 9,330
Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via MSN to Nogrod
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiwendil
I think it's a result of my attempt to preserve the style of the English, which has a lot of ". . ., and . . ., and . . ." sort of stuff.
Which English?

Sorry. No offence or anything like that. I do admire your work.

Just couldn't resist this one in relation to the nicely detailed differences of Latin we're speaking here about...

(Nicely detailed? The real cognoscenti would give us a much more detailed analysis of styles... )
__________________
Upon the hearth the fire is red
Beneath the roof there is a bed;
But not yet weary are our feet...
Nogrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2007, 09:17 AM   #14
the guy who be short
Shadowed Prince
 
the guy who be short's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Thulcandra
Posts: 2,496
the guy who be short has just left Hobbiton.
I have my Latin Language 1 GCSE exam tomorrow. This is a great resource! Gratias ago.
the guy who be short is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2007, 05:52 PM   #15
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,184
Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
I finished and added the Valaquenta. Again, be warned that my Latin skills are not all that great and that the text is far from guaranteed to be grammatically correct. If anyone finds mistakes, I'd be much obbliged if they would point them out to me.
Aiwendil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2007, 02:06 PM   #16
Wanderer of Light
Pile O'Bones
 
Wanderer of Light's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Zoetermeer, The Netherlands
Posts: 11
Wanderer of Light has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Wanderer of Light
Did you write it in church-Latin or Classical Latin?
__________________
"Ick ben de opstandinge ende het leven: die in my gelooft sal leven/ alwaer hy oock gestorven:"
^ Joannis 11:25
Wanderer of Light is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2007, 03:05 PM   #17
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,184
Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
My aim was Classical Latin, though I didn't hesitate to use a few ecclesiastical words when appropriate (like 'daemon'). But I think the style tends toward later imperial Latin rather than that of Caesar or Cicero.
Aiwendil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2007, 12:05 PM   #18
Wanderer of Light
Pile O'Bones
 
Wanderer of Light's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Zoetermeer, The Netherlands
Posts: 11
Wanderer of Light has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Wanderer of Light
How far are you with translating the next bit? I really can't wait for it ....

Although it is quit troublesome I can understand most of it with aid of a dictionairy and my school book .
__________________
"Ick ben de opstandinge ende het leven: die in my gelooft sal leven/ alwaer hy oock gestorven:"
^ Joannis 11:25
Wanderer of Light is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2007, 02:05 PM   #19
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,184
Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Not far, I'm afraid. Though I am working on it.
Aiwendil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2010, 09:20 PM   #20
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,184
Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Well, after more than three years I've put revised versions of the Ainulindale and the Valaquenta, as well as what I've done so far of the Quenta Silmarillion up here. I've decided to base my translations not on the '77 published Silmarillion but rather on what one might consider the 'veritable' documents from Middle-earth. The upshot of this for these early chapters is that some material found in 'Of the Beginning of Days' in the published book is here placed in the Ainulindale, Tolkien's original chapter titles have been used, and the text concerning the Ents and Eagles has been broken off as a separate chapter from 'Of Aule and the Dwarves'.

Any comments, criticisms, or (especially) suggestions or corrections would be greatly appreciated!
Aiwendil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2010, 06:31 AM   #21
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Auspicious Wraith
 
Eomer of the Rohirrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,988
Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Shield

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer of Light View Post
How far are you with translating the next bit? I really can't wait for it ....
Whoa! Zoetermeer? If you're still haunting these parts, Wanderer, then you'll have to know that there are a couple of Downers who have visited your town.

Great stuff, Aiwendil. I will check that out when I have some time.
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond
Eomer of the Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2010, 03:40 PM   #22
The Might
Guard of the Citadel
 
The Might's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,287
The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Flamma Immortale !!!
__________________
“The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.”
Delos B. McKown
The Might is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2010, 05:08 PM   #23
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,560
Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.
The other chapters are pretty cool to have - must have been quite a job. I have to read them when I have a piece of free time
__________________
"But it is not your own Shire," said Gildor. "Others dwelt here before hobbits were; and others will dwell here again when hobbits are no more. The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out."
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2010, 09:05 AM   #24
findorfin
Newly Deceased
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 6
findorfin has just left Hobbiton.
This makes me wish I had continued studying Latin at Uni!
findorfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2011, 09:40 PM   #25
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,184
Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
I've finished translating chapter 3 of the Quenta Silmarillion and have put it at my (new) web space. I've also made a number of corrections to the earlier chapters. Of course, the standard warnings about my non-expertise in Latin still apply.

I think that next I'll switch things up a little bit and translate some stuff from later in the Legendarium, instead of plodding ahead with QS chapter 4. Maybe I'll start on some of the Turin or Tuor material.
Aiwendil is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:26 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.