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Old 10-07-2012, 08:37 AM   #1
Runes
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How did Frodo get his Mithril Coat back?

In Return of the King, at the end when Frodo wakes up, Gandalf hands Frodo his mithril coat back, and Sam's sword.

However, the coat was taken by Shagrat, that ork at the Tower of Cirith Ungol. There was also a quote in the book that as Sam saw the ork escaping, he didn't know how much it would cost him, or something. Anyway, how did the coat come to Gandalf from here?

When journeying through the plains of Gorgoroth to Mt. Doom, Sam suggests they dump all the extra items they were carrying so as to lessen the weight. And they throw away everything, but its noted that Sam kept Sting. So they must've thrown Sam's original sword away (and actually, the orcs must have taken the sword away at Cirith Ungol, because Sam brings Frodo an orc sword to carry through Mordor.)

So my question is: how come Gandalf finds Sam's sword and the Mithril Coat? Its been bothering me ever since I reread the book this past week.
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:43 AM   #2
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Gandalf took it from the Mouth of Sauron during negotiations.
Mouth of Sauron took those stuff with intention to make them believe that he was holding Frodo as a prisoner, and he almost succeeded.
But not for Gandalf, who recognized the trick, and took it by force from him.
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:40 AM   #3
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d4rk3lf has it. The story does not elaborate on how the mithril coat passed from Shagrat to the Mouth of Sauron, but it's assumed that the orc handed it over to the authorities, and Sauron decided to give it to the Mouth to present before the Captains of the West. And Gandalf took it from the MoS.
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:20 PM   #4
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d4rk3lf has it. The story does not elaborate on how the mithril coat passed from Shagrat to the Mouth of Sauron, but it's assumed that the orc handed it over to the authorities, and Sauron decided to give it to the Mouth to present before the Captains of the West. And Gandalf took it from the MoS.
But what is the "Mouth of Sauron"? So does that mean Gandalf entered Mordor to negotiate? Or did this happen during the battle in front of the Morannon?
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Old 10-08-2012, 07:30 AM   #5
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But what is the "Mouth of Sauron"? So does that mean Gandalf entered Mordor to negotiate? Or did this happen during the battle in front of the Morannon?
The Mouth of Sauron is what the guy who "negotiated" for Mordor called himself. He was the one who came out before the battle at Morannon to speak to Gandalf, Aragorn, Eomer, Imrahil, and others. He was supposed to toy around with the Captains by showing them Frodo's mithril coat and Sam's sword to make them despair. But Gandalf cracked that tale in time. The Mouth spoke like there was only one hobbit, but he had objects from two. Therefore Sauron did not, in fact, know and have everything. Perhaps at least one of the hobbits is still alive, and more importantly, still carrying the Ring.

So Gandalf takes the objects from the Mouth and in a few moments the battle starts.
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Old 10-08-2012, 04:53 PM   #6
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d4rk3lf has it. The story does not elaborate on how the mithril coat passed from Shagrat to the Mouth of Sauron, but it's assumed that the orc handed it over to the authorities, and Sauron decided to give it to the Mouth to present before the Captains of the West. And Gandalf took it from the MoS.
According to Tolkien's unpublished synoptic chronology, Shagrat carried the mithril coat and other spoils together with news of the orc-fight and prisoners' escape to Barad-Dur, arriving (unfortunately for him) two days later, after a Nazgul had preceded him- a ****ed off Sauron killed him.
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Old 10-08-2012, 05:43 PM   #7
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According to Tolkien's unpublished synoptic chronology, Shagrat carried the mithril coat and other spoils together with news of the orc-fight and prisoners' escape to Barad-Dur, arriving (unfortunately for him) two days later, after a Nazgul had preceded him- a ****ed off Sauron killed him.
So much for being loyal, hehe.
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Old 10-09-2012, 11:32 PM   #8
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The Mouth of Sauron is what the guy who "negotiated" for Mordor called himself. He was the one who came out before the battle at Morannon to speak to Gandalf, Aragorn, Eomer, Imrahil, and others. He was supposed to toy around with the Captains by showing them Frodo's mithril coat and Sam's sword to make them despair. But Gandalf cracked that tale in time. The Mouth spoke like there was only one hobbit, but he had objects from two. Therefore Sauron did not, in fact, know and have everything. Perhaps at least one of the hobbits is still alive, and more importantly, still carrying the Ring.

So Gandalf takes the objects from the Mouth and in a few moments the battle starts.
Thanks, this is interesting! Is this all speculation, or was this info revealed somewhere? Sorry, I'm quite a Tolkien-novice. I've only read the Hobbit and LoTR once before the movies came out, and once again recently.
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Old 10-09-2012, 11:46 PM   #9
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Thanks, this is interesting! Is this all speculation, or was this info revealed somewhere? Sorry, I'm quite a Tolkien-novice. I've only read the Hobbit and LoTR once before the movies came out, and once again recently.
It's in the book: Return of the King, chp "The Black Gate Opens".
He calls himself "The Mouth of Sauron", says he has tokens to show, in especial, to Gandalf, declares the tokens are proof that the mission of the "spies" Gandalf had sent into Mordor has failed and that they will be tortured and broken if the Captains do not meet Sauron's terms (essentially to surrender).

The Movies here are wrong. Aragorn does not suddenly behead the Mouth. Instead, Gandalf is the one who, for a moment, unveils his glory and, in the momentary shock (to the Mouth) comes and takes the tokens from him declaring:
These we will take in memory of our friend. But as for your terms, we reject them utterly.
Get you gone, for your embassy is over and death is near to you.
We did not come here to waste words in treating with Sauron, faithless and accursed; still less with one of his slaves. Begone!
Really an *In Your Face, Mouth* moment!!

The Mouth is filled with rage, but also fear; turns and gallops back to the Black Gate with his embassy - blowing horns to sound the attack.
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:50 AM   #10
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One also suspects, although this is nowhere stated, that had Sauron recovered the Ring Gandalf, as the bearer of Narya, would have been aware of it - just as the original bearers of the Three were aware of the One the moment Sauron completed it.
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Old 10-11-2012, 03:01 PM   #11
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One also suspects, although this is nowhere stated, that had Sauron recovered the Ring Gandalf, as the bearer of Narya, would have been aware of it - just as the original bearers of the Three were aware of the One the moment Sauron completed it.
That is perfectly logical.
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Old 10-11-2012, 04:39 PM   #12
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One also suspects, although this is nowhere stated, that had Sauron recovered the Ring Gandalf, as the bearer of Narya, would have been aware of it - just as the original bearers of the Three were aware of the One the moment Sauron completed it.
If that were the case though, what would account for Gandalf's obvious anxiety when he learned from Faramir that Frodo had headed for Cirith Ungol, and apparently equated the darkness from Mordor with Frodo's capture?

Quote:
Pippin became aware that Gandalf's hands were trembling....with a thrill of fear Pippin knew that Gandalf, Gandalf himself, was troubled, even afraid.
Faramir gleaned the source of Gandalf's worry.

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'Indeed I see what you fear. But the darkness is not due to [Frodo and Sam's] venture....It is clear to me that the Enemy has long planned an assault on us, and [the darkness's] hour had already been determined before ever the travellers left my keeping.'
ROTK The Siege of Gondor

If Gandalf thought Narya would be an indicator that Sauron had regained the One, I see no reason he would have associated the darkness with Frodo's intended destination.
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:18 PM   #13
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If Gandalf thought Narya would be an indicator that Sauron had regained the One, I see no reason he would have associated the darkness with Frodo's intended destination.
Of course, this report from Faramir pre-dates the Battle of Pelennor and the encounter with the Mouth of Sauron before the Black Gate. Since this is mostly pure speculation anyway, I would speculate that Gandalf would be more likely to make use of his Ring to "enhance" the diversionary impact of the Battle at the Black Gate, as opposed to hiding it before then, and making Sauron aware that one of the Three was right outside his door, tempting him to strike, while at the same time allowing Gandalf the chance to determine whether Sauron had recovered the One (if such actions could be extracted through Narya. I'm not sure how it works, but this is all rather speculative, as has been mentioned.)
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Old 10-12-2012, 04:40 AM   #14
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I think that it was not the moment when Sauron finished the Ring but when he first wore it on his finger (which of course might have been nearly the same) that the Elve could feel his intentions and therefore took their rings of.
Gandalfs fear when he saw the darkness and heared Faramirs report of the way Frodo and Sam had chosen, might have been that either Sauron had regained the Ring but not yet used it or that Sauron had learned how to conceal his usage of the Ring.

Sauron had a long chance to practice, while he worked with the Men destinied to become Nazgûl and the dwarvisch ring bearers while the Eves and Gandalf had never any chance to parctice the detection of Saurons invluence through the Rings (they simply never used it while Sauron held the One Ring).

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Old 10-12-2012, 08:37 AM   #15
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I think that it was not the moment when Sauron finished the Ring but when he first wore it on his finger (which of course might have been nearly the same) that the Elve could feel his intentions and therefore took their rings of.
Gandalfs fear when he saw the darkness and heared Faramirs report of the way Frodo and Sam had chosen, might have been that either Sauron had regained the Ring but not yet used it or that Sauron had learned how to conceal his usage of the Ring.

Sauron had a long chance to practice, while he worked with the Men destinied to become Nazgûl and the dwarvisch ring bearers while the Eves and Gandalf had never any chance to parctice the detection of Saurons invluence through the Rings (they simply never used it while Sauron held the One Ring).

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That makes sense, it would account for Gandalf's anxiety, but he could also have feared that the Ring had been lost if Frodo and Sam had died, which would have meant that, though they were diverting Sauron's attention, they were merely delaying their doom. Had Frodo and Sam died, Sauron would eventually have found the Ring, it is inevitable.
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Old 10-13-2012, 12:45 AM   #16
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I have just realized why I feel so lost about Frodo's Mithril Coat and the Mouth of Sauron, when obviously the original thread question has been discussed in the book.

It's because I read the RoTK in ebook format, and chapter 10 "The Black Gate Opens" is missing in my version. Go figure. Is there a chance that anyone has the text of Chapter 10 "The Black Gate opens"? (if its allowed to be posted here)

The first time I read the books years back, I did remember that there was something about the war in front of the gates, but this time I didn't see anything. I remembered Pippin attacking a troll and then nearly dying under the crush of bodies, though this time it wasn't there.. and I also remember someone calling either Theoden or Denethor "dried up old stick." Err... does this last part happen somewhere? Or is this something totally unrelated I have mixed up with book facts?
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Old 10-13-2012, 03:46 AM   #17
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Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
Runes, check your local library for a copy of RotR so you can reread the missing chapter. Posting whole chapters online is not permitted by copyright law.
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Old 10-13-2012, 12:46 PM   #18
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Like Esty said, you wouldn't find the whole chapter. But you might find summaries. Here's one from Tolkien Gateway.

If calls the Mouth the Lieutenant, but they are one and the same person, and both names are used in the book. It also doesn't mention that Gandalf took the objects from the Mouth. I think it's a good summary in general.
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