The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-20-2007, 04:51 PM   #401
Bêthberry
Cryptic Aura
 
Bêthberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,072
Bêthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bêthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bêthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Tolkien

Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
Another option would have been the 'woodcut' effect illustrations used in the Folio Society Hobbit, LotR & Sil
davem, who did those illustrations and what are the dates of the publications?

For comparison, here's a link to British Museum's website, with pictures and descriptions of the King's Helm, Sutton Hoo. Apparently it was decorated with a dragon, among other items. Make sure you check out the replica, too, as well as the reconstructed helm.

The original helm was found crushed into hundreds of pieces; several reconstructions have been made. I recall being quite surprised at the small size when I saw it.
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.
Bêthberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2007, 11:20 PM   #402
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bêthberry
davem, who did those illustrations and what are the dates of the publications?
More from the Folio Society site
http://www.foliosoc.co.uk/folio/tolkien.php

Couple of points. Ingahild Grathmer, who did the original illustrations which Eric Fraser re-drew for LotR & TH, is actually Queen Margrethe II of Denmark. Fraser also painted the cover for the Radio Times back in 1981, to promote the Radio Adaptation of LotR http://www.briansibley.com/Broadcast...GoesEverOn.htm. For some reason the British Folio Society no longer publish The Sil.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2007, 03:37 PM   #403
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Some interesting thoughts on the curse in this blog

http://bethsperaindomino.blogspot.co...ok-review.html
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2007, 11:53 AM   #404
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
http://drvector.blogspot.com/2007/05...-of-hurin.html

http://www.hergenraders.com/wordpress/?p=752

Last edited by davem; 05-22-2007 at 02:48 PM.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2007, 08:10 AM   #405
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
http://www.anwyn.com/2007/04/18/tolk...urin/#comments
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2007, 11:17 AM   #406
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/enter...s/7661401.html
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2007, 02:45 PM   #407
Sir Kohran
Wight
 
Sir Kohran's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: England, UK
Posts: 178
Sir Kohran has just left Hobbiton.
I was intrigued by the idea of a 'First Age Trilogy' - I assume there would be Beren And Luthien, The Children Of Hurin and The Fall Of Gondolin/The War Of Wrath. Sadly Tolkien never got round to publishing this idea, but with the release of the COH, could we now see the other two 'great tales' in print too?
__________________
'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.'
Sir Kohran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2007, 04:12 PM   #408
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Kohran
I was intrigued by the idea of a 'First Age Trilogy' - I assume there would be Beren And Luthien, The Children Of Hurin and The Fall Of Gondolin/The War Of Wrath. Sadly Tolkien never got round to publishing this idea, but with the release of the COH, could we now see the other two 'great tales' in print too?
Can't see it happening. Alex Lewis did 'construct' a version of The Tale of Gondolin some years back, but it doesn't seem likely to see a wider audience than those who have bought the limited (50 in number) edition. Lewis got verbal permission from Priscilla Tolkien to publish that edition (don't think Christopher knew she'd given that permission). From reports I've seen its a readable enough version, but it has nothing like CT's Intro & Appendices for CoH. Lewis removed some of the 'archaisms' from some of the early versions he used, but its basically a sticking together of various versions Tolkien wrote. Unlike CoH there is no 'novel' (or 'novella') length version of the Tale that could be published. Same goes for Beren & Luthien.

So, that's not to say that it wouldn't be possible to knock something up. Its just it wouldn't really be 'Tolkien'.

I suppose it could be argued (with some justification perhaps) that CT took a wrong turn when he chose to follow up The Sil with Unfinished Tales & HoMe, rather than CoH & then to re-construct & complete the other Tales. After reading CoH I'm leaning towards that position myself. Much of HoM-e is fascinating, but none of it is as powerfully affecting as CoH in the form we now have it.

Back to the original question, though, who would write (or construct) the versions of the other two tales? I can only think of CT - & I don't think he's up for it.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2007, 04:20 PM   #409
Maédhros
The Kinslayer
 
Maédhros's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 658
Maédhros has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Maédhros
White Tree

Quote:
Lewis removed some of the 'archaisms' from some of the early versions he used, but its basically a sticking together of various versions Tolkien wrote. Unlike CoH there is no 'novel' (or 'novella') length version of the Tale that could be published. Same goes for Beren & Luthien.

So, that's not to say that it wouldn't be possible to knock something up. Its just it wouldn't really be 'Tolkien'.
I disagree. If Lewis used writtings from JRRT and didn't invent anything into his tale, why wouldn't it be Tolkien. It doesn't makes sense.
__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy."
Maédhros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2007, 04:44 PM   #410
Formendacil
Dead Serious
 
Formendacil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers.
Posts: 3,265
Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Send a message via AIM to Formendacil Send a message via MSN to Formendacil
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maédhros
I disagree. If Lewis used writtings from JRRT and didn't invent anything into his tale, why wouldn't it be Tolkien. It doesn't makes sense.
Davem's talking about length. The Lewis tale, based on Tolkien, wouldn't be substantially longer than the Book of Lost Tales "Fall of Gondolin", and that isn't nearly comparable to the Children of Húrin's length. Likewise, the longest official compilation of "Beren and Lúthien" wouldn't be nearly long enough.

Ergo, if you want to produce a trilogy... you'd have two very slim volumes going with The Children of Húrin.
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
Formendacil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2007, 01:08 AM   #411
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
I like Tom Simon's idea http://superversive.livejournal.com/47255.html#cutid1
Quote:
At one time, indeed, rumour said that it would be released in four volumes, and that might have been the better approach. A very successful version might have been constructed with one volume dedicated to each of the four great tales, and the earlier history of the Eldar and the Silmarils brought in gradually as backstory. The history of Fëanor would have been a logical annexe to the tale of Beren and Lúthien. The Valaquenta and the early wars of the Valar against Morgoth would have fitted well with the tale of Túrin, since ‘in it are revealed most evil works of Morgoth Bauglir’. The story of the Nauglamír (or Nauglafring) was explicitly intended as the opening section of the Tale of Eärendil; and so on. Then each book would have had a sympathetic protagonist, and a hook upon which to hang a more or less novelistic structure; and they would also have retained some of the enchantment of remote vistas that Tolkien recognized to be so powerful an attraction in The Lord of the Rings:
Though I'm not sure a fourth volume about the Voyage of Earendel & the Fall of Morgoth would have been necessary - those events could have formed an Epilogue to the Gondolin book - not every significant event in M-e history needs to be told in full length (cf the Last Alliance/Fall of Sauron). The Nauglafring/Fall of Doriath could have been included in the Beren & Luthien volume.

But therein lies another problem in starting to put out new works based on Tolkien's writings - the whole franchise thing. Look at the number of Star Wars/Star Trek nevels out there. Authorise another writer or writers to pick up the baton & where do you stop?

Sadly, there isn't, & cannot be, a Beren & Luthien or Tale of Gondolin novel by JRR Tolkien - & who'd really be happy if any other writer took over? Look at the arguments over the director of a Hobbit movie?

Nope - I'd love to have Beren & Luthien & The Fall of Gondolin from the hand of Tolkien. I'd also like a copy of the First Ed. of The Hobbit with a personalised dedication to me from JRRT, & a signed statement from him confirming Balrogs do not have wings - but the former are as impossible to get as the latter. I think we just have to regretfully accept that the First Age Trilogy will never see the light of day - not from Tolkien's hand anyway. And as I asked earlier - who would you trust to write new versions?
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2007, 01:40 AM   #412
ianintheuk
Newly Deceased
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4
ianintheuk has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril fisrt age trilogy

Well I think there is a possibility of a FIRST AGE TRILOGY, I have for some time been working on such a text (for my own amusement I must add) and since the announcement of the publication of The Children of Hurin have worked more to compile the “missing” tales.

I have at present completed a version of the FALL OF GONDOLIN which incorporates the whole tale of Gondolin from its founding thru’ to the War of Wrath. This was done to include the story of Maeglin so that the whole narrative could be found (to us CJRT’s words) between the covers of one volume. I have included all texts a from HOME, The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales that are relevant and edited it into one (approx) style, but have not introduced any new elements on non JRRT text.


Since the publication of The Children of Hurin I have set this text to mimic the published book (i.e. using the same font size, page size and layout) this has resulted in a book of 322 pages chaptered as follows

Contents

Preface

THE FALL OF GONDOLIN

THE EXILE FROM AMAN AND THE FOUNDING OF GONDOLIN 17

AREDHEL, EOL AND MAEGLIN 24

HURIN AND HUOR 41

NIRNAETH ARNOEDIAD 47

THE YOUTH OF TUOR 62

THE WORDS OF ULMO 78

THE STEADFAST MARINER 91

THE JOURNEY TO THE HIDDEN CITY 103

THE GATES OF GONDOLIN 121

TUOR AND TURGON 134

IDRIL AND TUOR 143

THE CAPTURE OF MAEGLIN 151

THE FALL OF GONDOLIN 162

THE EXILES OF GONDOLIN 207

OF EARENDIL AND THE WAR OF WRATH 220

APPENDIX 245

NOTES 247
THE PROBLEM OF ROS 259
INDEX OF NAMES 278
GEANEALOGIES 317


As you can see I have included a preface and Appendix more or less in line with the published COH.

I am still working on my version of BEREN AND LUTHIEN and trying to decide if it should end with the plea of Luthien or should also include the ruin of Doriath.
My idea is to use the Lat of Lethien and transliterate this into prose.

If anyone is interested I will post this once its finished.
ianintheuk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2007, 03:37 PM   #413
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
http://drvector.blogspot.com/2007/05...by-morons.html
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2007, 05:29 AM   #414
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
http://www.inchoatus.com/Critical%20...ng%20Idiot.htm
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2007, 04:47 AM   #415
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/featu...ping-headlines

And a message for writers & publishers of fantasy

http://superversive.livejournal.com/49083.html

Last edited by davem; 05-28-2007 at 11:08 AM.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2007, 04:04 PM   #416
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
CoH Audio book update

http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/..._Audiobook.php

So Christopher Lee is to read this unabridged version........
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2007, 08:24 AM   #417
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Very good review in this month's DeathRay magazine.

Also

http://www.hindu.com/lr/2007/06/03/s...0350350300.htm

Last edited by davem; 06-02-2007 at 02:35 PM.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2007, 12:11 AM   #418
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
If you haven't seen if via the TOR.n link
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m...71522693538744
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2007, 12:15 AM   #419
narfforc
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
narfforc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Muddy-earth
Posts: 1,307
narfforc has been trapped in the Barrow!
Hurim and Turim, he should have read the book slowly.
__________________
THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....NOW ON FACEBOOK.... SOON TO BE A BOOK.... OOPS IT IS NOW
narfforc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2007, 02:17 AM   #420
Anguirel
Byronic Brand
 
Anguirel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The 1590s
Posts: 2,825
Anguirel is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Such a good article marred by such a sloppy error - entirely typical of AN Wilson. High wages and adulation do that to a writer...
__________________
Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter
-Il Lupo Fenriso
Anguirel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2007, 11:25 PM   #421
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
http://rmfo-blogs.com/cozart/archive...y-jrr-tolkien/

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...ogID=274074914
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2007, 02:29 PM   #422
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
More on the audio book. http://www.harpercollins.co.uk/books....aspx?id=37173.

7 CD's.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2007, 02:53 PM   #423
Mithalwen
Pilgrim Soul
 
Mithalwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,901
Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Christopher Lee is such a good choice - wonderful voice and a genuine Tolkien fan.
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”

Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace
Mithalwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2007, 12:31 AM   #424
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
http://network.nature.com/blogs/user...turin-schmurin
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2007, 01:44 PM   #425
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
http://www.rte.ie/arts/2007/0521/dri...16476836781993

Interview on RTE radio - couple of Tolkien 'experts' getting stuff wrong, clip from the movie, clip of Tolkien & even some of Leonard Nimoy's Ballad of Bilbo Baggins...
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2007, 06:29 AM   #426
Lalaith
Blithe Spirit
 
Lalaith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,876
Lalaith is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Lalaith is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
The AN Wilson article - loved it, but a sloppy error, indeed.

May not be his fault though, could be the sub-editors. Even if Wilson had made the error, the subs should really have picked it up, anyway. *Tsk* What is the Telegraph coming to.
__________________
Out went the candle, and we were left darkling
Lalaith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2007, 08:49 AM   #427
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/...dren_of_hurin/
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2007, 02:54 PM   #428
Nogrod
Flame of the Ainulindalë
 
Nogrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves
Posts: 9,330
Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via MSN to Nogrod
I know Lommy promised to give in a short quote from the Finninsh version of the CoH to Davem but now as she will be away in the countryside for a couple of weeks and I have the translated version here I might go on and fulfill her promise - adding the original Finnish version from the same scene from Kalevala just for curiosity.

So this is the death of Túrin / Kullervo. I can't give the first words from the English original as my daughters took it away with them as Lommy's little sis will wish to read it on their holiday but this is from the end of the last chapter Túrin's death, from after the last words of Túrin to Mablung where he says that he has been blind and calls for them to leave him and to go back to Doriath - and cursing both their trip and Menegroth itself. The preceding paragraph ends with the words "the night is falling".

From the Finnish version of the CoH.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoH in Finnish
Ja nyt hän pakeni heidän luotaan kuin tuulispää ja heidät täytti ihmetys ja pelko. Mutta Mablung sanoi: "Jotain kauheaa ja outoa on tapahtunut, josta me emme mitään tiedä. Seuratkaamme häntä ja auttakaamme jos voimme sillä hän on mieltä vailla ja hakee kuolemaa."

Mutta Túrin kiiruhti heidän edellään ja tuli Cabed-en-Arasille ja seisoi siinä; hän kuuli veden ärjynnän ja näki, että kaikki puut olivat kärventyneet ja niiden kuivat lehdet putoilivat murheellisesti ikään kuin olisi tullut talvi kesken kesän päivien.

"Cabed-en-Aras, Cabed Naeramarth!" hän huusi. "Minä en saastuta vesiäsi, jotka huuhtovat Nínielin pois. Sillä kaikki tekoni ovat olleet pahat, ja pahin viimeinen."

Ja hän veti esiin miekkansa ja sanoi: "Terve Gurthang, kalman rauta, vain sinä yksin olet jäljellä! Onko sinulla muuta herraa kuin käsi, joka sinua käyttelee? Et kavahda kenekään verta. Otatko siis Túrin Turambarin? Surmaatko minut sukkelaan?"

Ja terästä kuului kylmä ääni vastaukseksi: "Mieluusti juon vertasi unohtaakseni herrani Belegin veren ja syyttä surmatun Brandirin veren. Sukkelaan surmaan sinut."

Silloin Túrin löi kahvan maahan ja heittäytyi Gurthangin terään ja musta miekka otti hänen henkensä.
Now about the same thing in Finnish Kalevala happens after Kullervo after learning his deed with her sister and her fate has returned to his old homeplace and finds everything deserted and empty and then his mother's voice from the grave tells him to go to the wild and search for the maidens of the forest to take care of him - like going back to Nargothrond where it would be safe. And Kullervo like Túrin declines the offer.

In Finnish Kalevala it is told this way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalevala
Kullervo, Kalervon poika,
Otti koiransa keralle,
Läksi tietä telkkimähän,
Korpehen kohoamahan;
Kävi matkoa vähäisen,
Astui tietä pikkaraisen,
Tuli tuolle saarekselle,
Tuolle paikalle tapahtui,
Kuss' oli piian pilannunna,
Turmellut emonsa tuoman.

Siin itki ihana nurmi,
Aho armahin valitti,
Nuoret heinät hellitteli,
Kuikutti kukat kanervan
Tuota piian pillamusta,
Emon tuoman turmelusta,
Eikä nousnut nuori heinää,
kasvanut kanervankukka,
Ylennyt sijalla sillä,
Tuolla paikalla pahalla,
Kuss' oli piian pilannunna,
Emon tuoman turmellunna.

Kullervo, Kalervon poika,
Tempasi terävän miekan,
Katselevi, kääntelevi,
Kyselevi, tietelevi;
Kysyi mieltä miekaltansa,
Tokko tuon tekisi mieli
Syöä syyllistä lihoa,
Viallista verta juoa.

Miekka mietti miehen mielen,
Arvasi uron pakinan,
Vastasi sanalla tuolla;
"Miks' en söisi mielelläni,
Söisi syyllistä lihoa,
Viallista verta joisi?
Syön lihoa syyttömänki,
Juon verta viattomanki."

Kullervo, Kalervon poika,
Sinisukka äijön lapsi,
Pään on peltohon sysäsi,
perän painoi kankahesen,
Kären käänti rintahansa,
Itse iskihe kärelle,
Siihen surmansa sukesi,
Kuolemansa kohtaeli.
Shortly and not actually translated but just described...

The first paragraph:
Kullervo, son of Kalervo took his dog with him and went to the wilds. After a short trek he came to the place where he had "marred the maid, spoiled the one her mother had brought to a life".

The second:
The grass was wailing and the flowers were groaning for the misdeed. No young grass would grow or heaths blossom there as it was a dark place where the maid had been marred, the one mother had brought a life was spoiled.

The third:
Kullervo takes his sword and looks at it, turns it around and asks it questrions and thinks. Asking then from it whether it would eat the guilty flesh, drink the vile blood?

The fourth:
The sword thought about the mind of the man, getting into what he was thinking. answered with the words: "Why shouldn't I eat gladly, eat the guilty flesh and drink the vile blood? I eat the flesh of innocents and drink the blood of those with no vice as well."

The fifth:
Kullervo, son of Kalervo set the hilt of the sword to the ground and brought the edge of it to his chest. He threw himself to the sword. There he met his death.


So no Glaurung here but things at the level of structure, minor details and motive bearing a lot of resemblances indeed.
__________________
Upon the hearth the fire is red
Beneath the roof there is a bed;
But not yet weary are our feet...
Nogrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2007, 04:26 PM   #429
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Thank you so much.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2007, 06:35 PM   #430
Morthoron
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
 
Morthoron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,447
Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogrod View Post
Now about the same thing in Finnish Kalevala happens after Kullervo after learning his deed with her sister and her fate has returned to his old homeplace and finds everything deserted and empty and then his mother's voice from the grave tells him to go to the wild and search for the maidens of the forest to take care of him - like going back to Nargothrond where it would be safe. And Kullervo like Túrin declines the offer.

In Finnish Kalevala it is told this way.

Shortly and not actually translated but just described...

The first paragraph:
Kullervo, son of Kalervo took his dog with him and went to the wilds. After a short trek he came to the place where he had "marred the maid, spoiled the one her mother had brought to a life".

The second:
The grass was wailing and the flowers were groaning for the misdeed. No young grass would grow or heaths blossom there as it was a dark place where the maid had been marred, the one mother had brought a life was spoiled.

The third:
Kullervo takes his sword and looks at it, turns it around and asks it questrions and thinks. Asking then from it whether it would eat the guilty flesh, drink the vile blood?

The fourth:
The sword thought about the mind of the man, getting into what he was thinking. answered with the words: "Why shouldn't I eat gladly, eat the guilty flesh and drink the vile blood? I eat the flesh of innocents and drink the blood of those with no vice as well."

The fifth:
Kullervo, son of Kalervo set the hilt of the sword to the ground and brought the edge of it to his chest. He threw himself to the sword. There he met his death.

So no Glaurung here but things at the level of structure, minor details and motive bearing a lot of resemblances indeed.
I must commend you on an excellent post, Nogrod. I would add to your rep points, unfortunately the forum is not allowing me to do so currently.

Humorously, this information ties in exactly with a point I was making in another thread; in fact, I feel like quoting your entire post and placing it in the other thread.
__________________
And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.
Morthoron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2007, 02:13 PM   #431
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
And the award for first cash in goes to http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sources-Ring...5307543&sr=8-7
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2007, 06:41 PM   #432
Morthoron
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
 
Morthoron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,447
Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davem View Post
And the award for first cash in goes to http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sources-Ring...5307543&sr=8-7
Perhaps if they used a George MacDonald book (or even Andrew Lang) for a Tolkien source it would make more sense. There are direct references to MacDonald's work in the Hobbit, but I can't recall Tolkien ever mentioning Eddison. As far as 'The Worm of Ouroboros', there are too many words and not enough periods. Eddison loved his sentences so much he could never finish them. His naming conventions leave something to be desired as well (not to mention the book takes place on Mercury and features gods from the Greek pantheon). Bah!
__________________
And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.
Morthoron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2007, 07:02 PM   #433
Nogrod
Flame of the Ainulindalë
 
Nogrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves
Posts: 9,330
Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.Nogrod is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via MSN to Nogrod
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morthoron
(not to mention the book takes place on Mercury and features gods from the Greek pantheon). Bah!
Has anyone else read Dan Simmons' "Ilium"? The idea of the Greek Pantheon in another planet (Mars in this case) sounds ridiculous enough and I do dislike some of Simmons' underlying political philosophy as well... But it was a good read indeed! I do recommend it. Really absorbing and mind-labouring sci-fi indeed with a twist of classical learning on Homer, Shakespeare and Proust. (it starts unpromisingly but after the first hundred pages you're hooked)

EDIT: This maybe a bit off-topic but I couldn't resist to advertise a good read when the idea of "the Gods of Greek Pantheon in a planet of our solar system" was mentioned.
__________________
Upon the hearth the fire is red
Beneath the roof there is a bed;
But not yet weary are our feet...
Nogrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2007, 12:18 AM   #434
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morthoron View Post
Perhaps if they used a George MacDonald book (or even Andrew Lang) for a Tolkien source it would make more sense. There are direct references to MacDonald's work in the Hobbit, but I can't recall Tolkien ever mentioning Eddison. As far as 'The Worm of Ouroboros', there are too many words and not enough periods. Eddison loved his sentences so much he could never finish them. His naming conventions leave something to be desired as well (not to mention the book takes place on Mercury and features gods from the Greek pantheon). Bah!
Oh, Tolkien was a fan of Eddison - Carpenter mentions he met Eddison at an Inklings meeting (its either in the Biography or 'The Inklings'). Have to admit I liked The Worm Ouroboros for the language & some of the imagery, but found the philosophy a bit iffy. Definitely not a 'source' though.

Checking Hammond & Scull I find: Apparently it was Lewis who invited Eddison to a meeting of the Inklings in February 1943 at Magdalen & he attended a second meeting in June 1944. Tolkien commented
Quote:
"Eddison thought what I admire 'soft' (his word: one of complete condemnation I gathered); I thought, corrupted by an evil & indeed silly 'philosophy', he was coming to admire, more & more, arrogance & cruelty. Incidentally, I thought his nomenclature slipshod & often inept. In spite of all of which, I still think of his as the greatest & most convincing writer of 'invented worlds' that I have read. But he was certainly not an 'inflluence'. (letters p.258)
Wikipedia has this:

Quote:
Research done by Paul Edmund Thomas shows that Eddison started imagining the stories which would turn into the The Worm Ouroboros at a very early age. An exercise book titled The Book of Drawings dated 1892 and created by Eddison is to be found at the Bodleian Library. In this book are 59 drawings in pencil which are captioned by the author. The pages of this book contain many of the heroes and villains of the later work. For example there is a drawing entitled The murder of Gallandus by Corsus and another entitled Lord Brandoch Daha challenging Lord Corund (both of these events occur in the book).

As might be expected, significant differences exist between the ideas of a 10 year old boy and the work of a 40 year old man. Perhaps the most interesting change is the change in Lord Gro's character. In the drawings Lord Gro is a hero of skill and courage, while in the book he is a conflicted character, never able to pick a side and stick to it. Another curious change is that in the drawings, Goldry Bluszco is the main hero, while in the book, he is a figure off-stage (in an enchanted prison) for most of the novel.

Many people (including Tolkien) have wondered at, and critiqued Eddison's curious and sometimes inappropriate names for his characters, places, and fictional nations (For example: The Red Foliot, La Fireez, Pixyland, Goldry Bluszco, etc.). The answer appears to be that these names originated in the mind of a young boy and Eddison could not, or would not change them thirty years later when he wrote the stories down (see Thomas, Introduction to the Worm Ouroboros, page xix).
Which explains the 'nomenclature' Tolkien had a problem with.

Last edited by davem; 07-25-2007 at 02:41 AM.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2007, 06:33 AM   #435
Morthoron
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
 
Morthoron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,447
Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Thanks for the citations, davem. I'll go reread those sections, as I said I couldn't recall Tolkien mentioning him (perhaps it's selective memory in this case). But you're right, Eddison should not be considered a 'source'; perhaps an 'antisource' (ie., what not to do when writing a fantasy).
__________________
And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.
Morthoron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2007, 04:47 AM   #436
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Just a quick update. The 2008 Tolkien Calendar & Diary are now published & they contain three new paintings by Alan Lee & a number of new pencil illustrations. February's painting is the darkly atmospheric 'The Gates of Angband' & depicts the assault of Gwindor & the folk of Nargothrond on Angband, September's is 'The Journey of Morwen & Nienor to Nargothrond', & shows the two & their Elven escort riding through an autumn landscape of reeds & fallen willows under a grey sky. Finally October's picture, 'Mablung Approaches the Doors of Nargothrond' is the picture we were originally offered as the putative cover of the book (the one with Glaurung crossing the Narog) but sans Glaurung for some reason. Personally, I find the latter two in particular superior to many of the ones included in the book, & September's painting in particular is one of the most beautiful paintings of M-e I've ever seen.

Another thing worth pointing up is that the colour reproduction, particularly in the Calendar, is far superior to that in the book, not to mention the pictures are larger & the detail far clearer. In fact, I may just pop out & get meself another copy & some picture frames.....
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2007, 07:58 AM   #437
Sauron the White
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 903
Sauron the White has just left Hobbiton.
The removal of Glaurung from the paintings gives added credibility to the comments attributed to Ted Nasmith and other illustrators that the Estate does NOT want "monsters" depicted. This calendar sounds like a winner and I am off to puchase it. Cannot wait to see those new illustrations.
Sauron the White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2007, 11:46 AM   #438
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
CoH on I-Tunes

Looks like its available to download, & there's a nice clip of Christopher Lee reading from Ch. 1, so we can see what we're getting......
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2007, 04:00 PM   #439
William Cloud Hicklin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
William Cloud Hicklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,085
William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Sorry, davem, I don't see it there
__________________
“It is good to be both loved and feared; but if one cannot be both, it is better to be feared than loved" --Machiavelli
William Cloud Hicklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2007, 02:08 AM   #440
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli View Post
Sorry, davem, I don't see it there
Try here:
http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/...and_Itunes.php

or here (click 'sample' just under the pic) http://www.audible.com/adbl/site/pro...seBVCookie=Yes

Last edited by davem; 10-06-2007 at 02:12 AM.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:32 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.