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Old 05-03-2007, 03:19 PM   #361
davem
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Old 05-03-2007, 04:07 PM   #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithalwen
I was partly referring to prose style. The alternative you provided I found indigestible, even as a devotee of the King James Bible - there are only so many "hithers" one passage can take....
I guess that you are not a fan of Tolkien's Lost Tales.
There is a difference in the prose style of the Later Tuor from 1951 and the story in The Fall of Gondolin from 1916-17. (Tuor and the Exiles of Gondolin )
From Unfinished Tales: Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin
Quote:
The tale of Tuor and the Exiles of Gondolin (as "The Fall of Gondolin" is entitled in the early MSS) remained untouched for many years, though my father at some stage, probably between 1926 and 1930, wrote a brief, compressed version of the story to stand as part of The Silmarillion (a title which, incidentally, first appeared in his letter to The Observer of 20 February 1938); and this was changed subsequently to bring it into harmony with altered conceptions in other parts of the book. Much later he began work on an entirely refashioned account, entitled "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin." It seems very likely that this was written in 1951, when The Lord of the Rings was finished but its publication doubtful. Deeply changed in style and bearings, yet retaining many of the essentials of the story written in his youth, "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin" would have given in fine detail the which legend that constitutes the brief 23rd chapter of the published Silmarillion, but, grievously, he went no further than the coming of Tuor and Voronwë to the last gate and Tuor's sight of Gondolin across the plain of Tumladen. To his reasons for abandoning it there is no clue.

It is thus the remarkable fact that the only full account that my father ever wrote of the story of Tuor's sojourn in Gondolin, his union with Idril Celebrindal, the birth of Eärendil, the treachery of Maeglin, the sack of the city, and the escape of the fugitives – a story that was a central element in his imagination of the First Age – was the narrative composed in his youth. There is no question, however, that that (most remarkable) narrative is not suitable for inclusion in this book. It is written in the extreme archaistic style that my father employed at that time, and it inevitably embodies conceptions out of keeping with the world of The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion in its published form. It belongs with the rest of the earliest phase of the mythology, "the Book of Lost Tales": itself a very substantial work, of the utmost interest to one concerned with the origins of Middle-earth, but requiring to be presented in a lengthy and complex study if at all.
The problem of putting the two texts together as CT points out is that the earlier version has an archaic style, with respect to the Later Tuor account in Unfinished Tales. The point is that: Is the composition of a full "readable" text of the Tale of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin up to the escape of the fugitives, to be published as a separte work, such as the CoH, regardless with more editorial alterations because of the archaic elements in the earlier tale (and to have a single style prose style of Later Tuor), would that not better than not at all? How many people will not ever know of this story, such as the CoH, if CT had not published it this year? To me, the positives far outweight the negatives, even though this is a moot point because CT probably will never do it.
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Old 05-03-2007, 11:31 PM   #363
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Old 05-04-2007, 08:33 AM   #364
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Old 05-04-2007, 02:42 PM   #365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maédhros
I guess that you are not a fan of Tolkien's Lost Tales.
There is a difference in the prose style of the Later Tuor from 1951 and the story in The Fall of Gondolin from 1916-17. (Tuor and the Exiles of Gondolin )
From Unfinished Tales: Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin
I am afraid that I was defeated by the Lost Tales when I bought them when they were first released in paperback - my first four volumes of HOME are from the first paperback release, the rest from the 2002 reissue... it perhaps wasn't the best time since I started my degree with a 60 volume reading list and the realisation that outside linguistics class Tolkien was not approved of. I do hope to have another go but while I have read most of most of the later volumes I haven't quite plucked up the courage to reopen Lost Tales.

I adore UT though - my favourite volume of Tolkien on the whole.

Don't get me wrong, I am so glad that HoME has made so much available, and the prospect of finding out more about Idril (surely Tolkien's most admirable female character ) is a big incentive to have another go with LT, but I have to say I think CT's judgement was sound.

Not a fan hmm.... I cannot answer accurately yes or no . Many of the phrases are lovely in isolation but on top of each other .... well it is the difference between a long G&T and swigging Gordon's from the bottle a la Hogarth - one is a delightful prospect the other horrific - so does that make me a fan of gin or not?
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Old 05-05-2007, 09:37 AM   #366
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Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I am so glad that HoME has made so much available, and the prospect of finding out more about Idril (surely Tolkien's most admirable female character ) is a big incentive to have another go with LT, but I have to say I think CT's judgement was sound.

Not a fan hmm.... I cannot answer accurately yes or no . Many of the phrases are lovely in isolation but on top of each other .... well it is the difference between a long G&T and swigging Gordon's from the bottle a la Hogarth - one is a delightful prospect the other horrific - so does that make me a fan of gin or not?
I was not really a fan of the styles of those stories either, but the Cottage of Lost Play really won me over, and since has become my favorite Tolkien story of them all. I guess it has something of a je ne sais quoi quality. The poetry in Bolt I just find it amazing.
You should give it another try. I mean for someone like me, whose English is not his first language, can do it. I'm sure that it would be way easier for you.
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Old 05-05-2007, 10:04 AM   #367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maédhros
I was not really a fan of the styles of those stories either, but the Cottage of Lost Play really won me over, and since has become my favorite Tolkien story of them all. I guess it has something of a je ne sais quoi quality. The poetry in Bolt I just find it amazing.
You should give it another try. I mean for someone like me, whose English is not his first language, can do it. I'm sure that it would be way easier for you.
I have a soft spot for BoLT. Strikes me that's another all but complete work which CT could put out without too much editorial intervention - along with colour plates & illuminated lettering - like one of those Edwardian fairy story collections.
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Old 05-05-2007, 10:56 AM   #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
I have a soft spot for BoLT. Strikes me that's another all but complete work which CT could put out without too much editorial intervention - along with colour plates & illuminated lettering - like one of those Edwardian fairy story collections.
My broken leg having kept me from more adventurous activities, I've been reading a lot lately, and having finished The Children of Húrin, I've been rereading the HoME, in particular the "Lost Tales", so I'm particularly curious to hear how you would put out a "complete work without too much editorial intervention".

I suppose, of course, that "too much" is a subjective term, and means different things, but there are some very major difficulties, as I see it, to putting out such a book.

First, and foremost, is that the thing isn't complete. As Christopher Tolkien says in the commentary parts, the "Lost Tales" are missing a chunk of their middle (Gilfanon's Tale, or the history from the crossing of the Helcaraxë till the Battle of Unnumbered Tears), and the end. The whole Tale of Eärendel is missing.

Similarly, the "Links" or the Eriol parts of the "Lost Tales" are incomplete. In the "Cottage of Lost Play" and in the "Links" we have a buildup towards his receiving limpë, and there is a narrative-- but it is never resolved. Would you then publish a tale that is unresolved?

There are also several matters of internal cohesion to be resolved, such as the consistency of names (the text in the HoME is already one that Christopher Tolkien has made more consistent), or things such as the Elf/Man nature of Beren, and other things of this nature. Personally, I would say these matters are easily dealt with, and would truly require a minimum of editorial intervention, but the much larger issue of an incomplete tale is rather serious.
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Old 05-05-2007, 11:13 AM   #369
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Quote:
I have a soft spot for BoLT. Strikes me that's another all but complete work which CT could put out without too much editorial intervention - along with colour plates & illuminated lettering - like one of those Edwardian fairy story collections.
I'm rather fond of the Lost Tales as well, though as Formendacil quite correctly points out, they are quite incomplete. Personally, I think that one of the greatest tragedies arising from Tolkien's tendency to leave things unfinished is the fact that he never wrote the Tale of Earendel (or Tales, as it was supposed to consist of seven or so sections, making it almost as long again as the whole work up to that point). 'Earendil' is of course the only Great Tale that was never told in long form.

I have sometimes been tempted to try and write a 'Tale of Earendil' myself, though I hesitate even to mention it, considering Davem's views on 'other stories' . . .
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Old 05-06-2007, 01:25 AM   #370
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http://www.spokesmanreview.com/featu....asp?ID=188030

And the Observer would like to apologise for its mistake last week:

Quote:
"We repeated a picture agency error in a caption on a photograph of JRR Tolkein which accompanied our review of The Children of Hurin (Books, last week). We said the picture dated from 1999, but Tolkein died in 1973. The picture was taken in 1971."
Always nice when a newspaper admits their mistakes.....now about 'Tolkein'....

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comme...073557,00.html

EDIT

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ide...he_beginning_/

Interesting one - what shall we make of the 'Blakean' connection?

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Old 05-06-2007, 01:56 PM   #371
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Now this is worth keeping up with. A Michael Moorcock forum discussing CoH - Moorcock says he's going to read it. Should be interesting to see what he makes of it..;.

http://www.multiverse.org/fora/showthread.php?t=5345

also

http://www.booklore.co.uk/PastReview...urinReview.htm

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Old 05-06-2007, 02:29 PM   #372
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To Maedhros...

....your PM box has been full for days!
Yes, I'd love to see the version of CoH....
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Old 05-06-2007, 09:55 PM   #373
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http://www.livemint.com/2007/05/0500...om-Middle.html
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Old 05-07-2007, 08:24 AM   #374
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Quote:
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At last- an honest negative! "I didn't enjoy it because it's too dense and complicated for me, but others may differ." Would that the professional sneerers had half so much integrity!
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Old 05-07-2007, 11:18 AM   #375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
[url]
Always nice when a newspaper admits their mistakes.....now about 'Tolkein'....

Well Dave, what do you expect - "The Observer" is effectively " The Grauniad on Sunday"
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Old 05-08-2007, 08:08 AM   #376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalaith
....your PM box has been full for days!
Yes, I'd love to see the version of CoH....
Sorry, please check your pm box now.
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Old 05-08-2007, 12:05 PM   #377
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http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/...ig-success.php

And this one has been linked to from TOR.n, but its maybe useful to have all the links together here

http://czytaj.elendili.pl/2007/05/06...ales-and-home/

Last edited by davem; 05-08-2007 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 05-09-2007, 03:10 PM   #378
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John D Rateliff's blog has some nice stuff on CoH
http://sacnoths.blogspot.com/search/...0of%20Hurin%22
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Old 05-10-2007, 01:50 PM   #379
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http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.c...dline=s4i18567

http://www.librarything.com/work.php?book=14776668

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Old 05-10-2007, 11:41 PM   #380
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Old 05-11-2007, 03:25 PM   #381
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Harper Collins have a Browse inside feature for CoH - http://www.harpercollins.co.uk/books....aspx?id=36893
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Old 05-11-2007, 06:33 PM   #382
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A link to download a 20-minute audio interview with Alan Lee, in which he discusses the illustrations in C of H and how he created them. Here.
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Old 05-11-2007, 11:49 PM   #383
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http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/13/bo...=1&oref=slogin
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Old 05-12-2007, 10:03 AM   #384
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http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...EGU&refer=home

http://www.newindpress.com/sunday/su...rature&rLink=0

http://www.bookreporter.com/reviews2/0618894640.asp

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Old 05-12-2007, 03:15 PM   #385
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18628570/site/newsweek/
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Old 05-14-2007, 11:51 AM   #387
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Tolkien

Well, I received CoH as a gift yesterday, so I guess I'll be getting around to looking at all those links shortly.

It's a handsome looking book indeed and I find CT's own style in the intro very interesting.
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Old 05-16-2007, 12:22 AM   #388
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http://enterthedoorwithin.blogspot.c...-of-hurin.html

http://coyotemercury.com/blog1/2007/...dren-of-hurin/

http://ambernight.org/archives/2007/05/14/400
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Old 05-18-2007, 12:05 AM   #389
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http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/b...cle2554613.ece

http://www.smh.com.au/news/book-revi...995388317.html

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Old 05-18-2007, 07:45 AM   #390
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I got a good laugh out of this line from Boyce's review in The Independent:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boyce
It's a prequel in the sense that a book about neolithic traders of the Dorset coast is a prequel to Persuasion.
I wish I were a ten year old who had an entire day and a half in which to do nothing but read.
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Old 05-18-2007, 10:09 AM   #391
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Quote:
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II wish I were a ten year old who had an entire day and a half in which to do nothing but read.
I'm with you there! So hard to find a chunk of time larger than 15 minutes in which to bury oneself in a good book. And Tolkien is such a wonderful writer, isn't he? Amazing how regardless of the style, he is capable of transporting a person far away. You feel the cold and smell the rain...and imagine the hot humid stench of Glaurung's breath.
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Old 05-19-2007, 01:09 PM   #392
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http://reformedpastor.wordpress.com/...final-triumph/

Also, there's a short review by Tom Shippey in this week's Times Literary Supplement (not on line yet), & another short one in this month's SFX magazine.
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Old 05-19-2007, 01:17 PM   #393
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I finally bought it. Not sure if these points regarding the cover art have been mentioned yet:

- The Dragon-helm doesn't appear to have a visor (it is supposed to).

- The picture has Turin wearing the Dragon-helm and also holding a black sword, which must of course be Anglachel/Gurthang. But in this version of the story he loses the Dragon-helm after the battle at Amon Rudh, whereas (in all versions) he doesn't acquire Anglachel until his rescue from the Orcs; so he shouldn't have both at the same time.

- Surely the picture on the back cover (and again between the title page and chapter 1) is Beren and Luthien being borne to Doriath by the eagles. What has this to do with the Turin saga?
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Old 05-19-2007, 01:28 PM   #394
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This is one of the best reviews I've come across

http://superversive.livejournal.com/49730.html
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Old 05-19-2007, 05:18 PM   #395
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About the picture at the backside of the dustcover: It is not Beren and Lúthien that are born by the eagles. The picture shows Húrin and Huor when they are brought to Gondolin.

Good observation that Túrin has in the story as presented never Helm and sword at on time. (It is a nice detail that the picture would fit our version with Túrin waering the Helm at the Fall of Nargothrond and when he set out kill Glaurung.)

That the helm has no visor was mentioned before. Overall nice pictures, but when it comes to details one can allway find some faults.

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Old 05-19-2007, 11:52 PM   #396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
This is one of the best reviews I've come across

http://superversive.livejournal.com/49730.html
Just for the sake of discussion, care to elaborate on why you think this is one of the best?

EDIT: Fascinating that the Reformed Pastor (in the link which davem gives in post #392 above) links to this thread's list of reviews.
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Old 05-20-2007, 12:18 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by Bêthberry
Just for the sake of discussion, care to elaborate on why you think this is one of the best?
Well, for one thing, most of the reviews I've seen so far have had little original to say. There are probably no more than a dozen really good ones I've come across - ones with something significant to say. I think this reviewer has real insight into what Tolkien was doing, & demolishes a couple of the sillier reviews. What's interesting is that this guy is a Catholic, & one would think that as such he'd play up the 'bigger picture' argument - seeing CoH in the context of the Legendarium, & drawing in the 'eucatastrophic' fall of Morgoth - as certain of my 'opponents' in the Turin the Hopeless thread did:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Simon
Who, then, is morally simplistic, or childish, or escapist? Is it the great authors of the last century — Tolkien, Orwell, Vonnegut, Burgess, to name only a few — who dressed up human wickedness in fairy-tale costumes so that we could bear to look upon it and call it by its name? Or the academics and critics, the Modernists and Postmodernists, who refused to look and pretended it did not exist? It takes a peculiar and wilful blindness to accuse Tolkien of moral puerility, or to read him without seeing the deadly seriousness of the issues his fantasies raise. The Children of Húrin is Tolkien at his darkest, Tolkien looking into the abyss; and I find it deeply disturbing that none of his enemies and few of his friends seem capable of grasping the fact.
This is another very good piece on Tolkien by Simon http://superversive.livejournal.com/47255.html#cutid1

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Old 05-20-2007, 10:30 AM   #398
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Yes, I think you are right; Simon's review does Tolkien the honour of treating him as an artist and discussing the work as a creation. I was initially put off by his opening gambit of that old canard of the academic critics who naysay Tolkien, but pleasantly impressed with his bookend about gushing fans.

For my reading, I find Hurin more interesting and compelling than The Silm. Perhaps because the characterizations are more closely developed with the theme of fate, perhaps because the malice of Morgoth is dramatised more, perhaps because Tolkien has for me captured that entire world view which I find so fascinating in Beowulf, fatalism, dustsceawung. Rarely has a story explored so relentlessly the nature and foibles of human pride.

Interesting too, what Simon says--ha ha--that only in fantasy could we look upon the face of evil.
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Old 05-20-2007, 12:35 PM   #399
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... perhaps because Tolkien has for me captured that entire world view which I find so fascinating in Beowulf, fatalism, dustsceawung. Rarely has a story explored so relentlessly the nature and foibles of human pride.
.
What Simon said about Tolkien looking into the Abyss struck me. He does, & I think its significant that there is virtually no detailed description of the Elvish glories of either Menegroth or Nargothrond. the bleak landscape of Amon Rudh & environs is given more focus, as is Brethil & Turin's childhood home in Dor Lomin. The wild, uninhabited regions are painted in more detail than the islands of civilisation, & its as if they are far more 'real', while the Elven realms are transitory, almost like dreams. The absence of any kind of 'glorious' victory is also of great significance Turin may defeat his foes but there is no sense of a more than transitory victory. Its as if right from the start we are being told not to hope for any good outcome.

On a side note, the more I consider it, the more I feel that Lee's paintings are a mistake. A couple of them show the Elven realms, & I'm not sure they don't make them seem too 'real' & solid. Also, I'm not sure that a work like this should have colour paintings at all. Perhaps they should have stuck to the pencil illustrations that top & tail the chapters. Another option would have been the 'woodcut' effect illustrations used in the Folio Society Hobbit, LotR & Sil



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Old 05-20-2007, 01:24 PM   #400
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Just a note to say that The Children of Hurin is still top of the Hard back fiction lists outselling Wilbur Smith, Joanne Harris, Ian McEwan.....
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