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Old 01-17-2019, 04:29 AM   #1
Huinesoron
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Narmer the Numenorean

Fact: J.R.R. Tolkien stated that the Fourth Age began approximately 6000 years ago, ca. 4000 BC.

Fact: Archaeological evidence shows that Eurasia was in the Late Neolithic/Early Bronze Age at this point. There is no direct evidence of a pseudo-medieval, metal-using, horse-riding culture like Gondor. However:

Fact: There is some evidence of horse domestication from 4000-3500 BC in Ukraine, which most maps would place in Mordor. This lines up with the beginning of trade with Gondor and Rohan.

Fact: Around 3250 BC (4th Age 750), an 'abrupt cold and wet snap' called the Piora Oscillation took place in Europe and Asia. The causes are debated, but there is suggestion that a volcanic eruption or a meteor strike could have triggered it.

Repeated fact: There is now no evidence that Gondor and Rohan ever existed.

Fact: The first Pharoah of Egypt, Narmer, took power ca. 3100 BC. His titles included 'Lord of the Two Lands' and 'Uniter of Two Lands'. His ornate crown includes a flourish which could be seen as a highly stylised wing.

Fact: 'Narmer' is a valid Quenya name containing the element 'fire' (nar). The second half could be the verb 'to desire', or a truncated form of merca, 'wild'. His alternate name, 'Menes', is a valid Quenya name meaning 'youth who departs' (men-nese).

Speculation: I mean, is it even speculation now? Narmer Menes is the last young prince of Aragorn's line, who fled the cataclysm that erased Gondor and plunged the world into disarray. He founded a new (re)United Kingdom in northern Harad, recreating the lost Crown of Gondor as best he could. His names refer to his age when he fled, and to the wild fire (volcanic or meteoric) that took his homeland.

Supporting evidence: The second pharoah of the First Dynasty was Hor-Aha, 'impulsive rage' in Quenya. The city of Memphis, founded as his capital by Narmer, was known in Ancient Egyptian as 'the city of the White Walls' - an echo of Minas Tirith. The Egyptians famously adopted the Numenorean custom of preserving the dead. And the use of metal in Egypt 'immediately follows the unification of Lower and Upper Egypt' - Narmer brought it with him.

Conclusion: If the Legendarium were true (yes, yes, it's all fiction books, I know), there would be more than enough evidence to establish the First Dynasty of Egypt as direct successors to the Telcontar Dynasty of Gondor.

hS
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Old 01-19-2019, 10:17 PM   #2
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What about the theories that King Scorpion II and Narmer were one and the same person?

I think that would tend to undermine your theory a bit.
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Old 01-20-2019, 11:10 AM   #3
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What about the theories that King Scorpion II and Narmer were one and the same person?

I think that would tend to undermine your theory a bit.
Unless one is his Quenya name and one his "vulgar?" ;-)
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Old 01-20-2019, 11:16 PM   #4
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Unless one is his Quenya name and one his "vulgar?" ;-)
True, but "Scorpion" is hardly a symbol in keeping with a Numenorean origin. I would submit that it suggests a Haradric provenance.
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Old 01-21-2019, 03:31 AM   #5
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... or a title?

How's this for an idea: much in the same way as the children of the British crown receive titles to various places (from the Prince of Wales on down to the - what's Harry? - Duke of Sussex), King Elessar could have adopted the same approach for his children. The firstborn would probably be Prince of Arnor, but after that you get into smaller regions. One of the least important is a distant region of Harad, down on the southern reaches of a tributary of the Harnen. The youngest son - Narmer, in this case - was prince and sub-ruler of this land, which we now know as Upper Egypt.

So why 'Scorpion'? One option is that it's an insult from the moderately oppressed locals - he's 'the scorpion-prince from the north'. Once the Numenoreans took over fully, it changed in mythological form into a positive name.

The other option, and one that gels better with history, is that the Reunited Kingdom engaged in the age-old practice of marriage alliances. The young prince was given two names: one in Quenya (now forgotten), but also one in the Haradrin tongue of his mother.

Or even his father! I'm treating him as a son of the king, but given how far away Upper Egypt would be, he'd be more likely to be a nephew or more distant cousin. We have the Duke & Duchess of Kent, who are the Queen's cousins, and their eldest child is in line for the title.

I think I actually like this version more. Scorpion was born and raised in Upper Egypt, but still spent a lot of time in Minas Tirith. When the Cataclysm came, he inherited his father's title, and became Prince Scorpion. In what could be either a humanitarian effort or a war of conquest, he occupied and claimed the land to the north, which was hit by the Cataclysm (forming the Delta); there, hailed as heir to the now-lost Reunited Kingdom, he gained his new name of Narmer Menes, the Prince from Out of the Fire.

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Old 01-25-2019, 09:43 PM   #6
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If I had to pick a Numenorian dynasty in Harad it would be the Ptolemaics, but that implies a RL parallel to Gondor as opposed to the assumption that Gondor really existed as Gondor.

Wikipedia claims Narmer's name likely means "stinging/raging catfish". The first part can sort of fit with his Elvish name and Scorpion title. What does "catfish" mean? A variation of Scorpion? Egyptians would be able to tell the difference, that can't be it. Unless it's Gondorians who never saw Scorpions before and somehow decided the closest animal is catfish? If I accept this idea I also have to maintain that Gondor must have had very poor observational skills. So pray tell, what happened there? Linguistic corruption over the years? Misreading of the hieroglyphs by modern people? What were they supposed to mean initially?
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Old 01-27-2019, 01:51 PM   #7
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If I had to pick a Numenorian dynasty in Harad it would be the Ptolemaics, but that implies a RL parallel to Gondor as opposed to the assumption that Gondor really existed as Gondor.
And Aragorn as Alexander? It works up to a point; he certainly invaded the right places. Of course, the other thing Alexander's famous for is dying young...

(It would also get rid of the annoying 'Egypt must have been founded by Europeans' theme this thread suffers from; to be clear, I definitely don't believe that, but in the Legendarium, civilisation descends from Numenor, so.)

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Wikipedia claims Narmer's name likely means "stinging/raging catfish". The first part can sort of fit with his Elvish name and Scorpion title. What does "catfish" mean? A variation of Scorpion? Egyptians would be able to tell the difference, that can't be it. Unless it's Gondorians who never saw Scorpions before and somehow decided the closest animal is catfish? If I accept this idea I also have to maintain that Gondor must have had very poor observational skills. So pray tell, what happened there? Linguistic corruption over the years? Misreading of the hieroglyphs by modern people? What were they supposed to mean initially?
The immediate explanation is that the Egyptians simply heard the name 'Narmer' as their own, similar word. This happened back in the First Age, when the Noldor all wound up with names that sounded like their Quenya names, but had different, or sometimes no, meanings. See also 'Kangaroo'.

If we want an actual explanation... well, Europeans are kind of famous for our terrible habit of saying 'eh, close enough' about species names. Possums, blackbirds, corn... not to mention the ones with weird modifiers. Is 'land catfish' any weirder than 'sea horse'?

Alternately, the original meaning was 'scorpion from the sea' - Scorpion for the name, and the sea part because that's what Gondor is now - just sea, out of which came Narmer. Then later, when they mythologised and separated Scorpion and Narmer, they looked at that name and said 'what's a sea scorpion? Must mean catfish!'

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Old 01-27-2022, 03:19 PM   #8
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“Of Eldarion son of Elessar it was foretold that he should rule a great realm, and that it should endure for a hundred generations of Men after him, that is until a new age brought in again new things”

(HoME XII: Part 1, Chapter VIII)

Here is a list of Aragorn's heirs with guesses as to when they began their reign.
The names of the kings after Eldarion are unknown.

The first 50 probably lived before historical times. We may or may not know who the next 50 were.

4380 BC Eldarion
4280 BC I
4200 BC II
4140 BC III
4100 BC IV
4080 BC V
4060 BC VI
4040 BC VII
4020 BC VIII
4000 BC IX

3980 BC X
3960 BC XI
3940 BC XII
3920 BC XIII
3900 BC XIV
3880 BC XV
3860 BC XVI
3840 BC XVII
3820 BC XVIII
3800 BC XIX
3780 BC XX
3760 BC XXI
3740 BC XXII
3720 BC XXIII
3700 BC XXIV
3680 BC XXV
3660 BC XXVI
3640 BC XXVII
3620 BC XXVIII
3600 BC XXIX
3580 BC XXX
3560 BC XXXI
3540 BC XXXII
3520 BC XXXIII
3500 BC XXXIV
3480 BC XXXV
3460 BC XXXVI
3440 BC XXXVII
3420 BC XXXVIII
3400 BC XXXIX
3380 BC XL
3360 BC XLI
3340 BC XLII
3320 BC XLIII
3300 BC XLIV
3280 BC XLV
3260 BC XLVI
3240 BC XLVII
3220 BC XLVIII
3200 BC XLIX
3180 BC L

and

3160 BC LI
3140 BC LII
3120 BC LIII
3100 BC LIV
3080 BC LV
3060 BC LVI
3040 BC LVII
3020 BC LVIII
3000 BC LIX
2980 BC LX
2960 BC LXI
2940 BC LXII
2920 BC LXIII
2900 BC LXIV
2880 BC LXV
2860 BC LXVI
2840 BC LXVII
2820 BC LXVIII
2800 BC LXIX
2780 BC LXX
2760 BC LXXI
2740 BC LXXII
2720 BC LXXIII
2700 BC LXXIV
2680 BC LXXV
2660 BC LXXVI
2640 BC LXXVII
2620 BC LXXVIII
2600 BC LXXIX
2580 BC LXXX
2560 BC LXXXI
2540 BC LXXXII
2520 BC LXXXIII
2500 BC LXXXIV
2480 BC LXXXV
2460 BC LXXXVI
2440 BC LXXXVII
2420 BC LXXXVIII
2400 BC LXXXIX
2380 BC XC
2360 BC XCI
2340 BC XCII
2320 BC XCIII
2300 BC XCIV
2280 BC XCV
2260 BC XCVI
2240 BC XCVII
2220 BC XCVIII
2200 BC XCIX
2180 BC C

or

3100 BC Early Dynastic Period

3100 BC First Dynasty

3150 BC Narmer / Menes
3125 BC Hor-Aha (Athotís)
54 years Djer (Kénkenes)
10 years Djet (Ouenephes)
42 years Den (Ousaphaidos)
10 years Anedjib (Miebidós)
8+1⁄2 years Semerkhet (Semempsés)
34 years Qa'a (Bienékhes)
2900 BC Sneferka
2900 BC [Horus Bird]

2890 BC Second Dynasty

15 years Hotepsekhemwy (Boëthos)
14 years Nebra (Kaíechós)
43–45 years Nynetjer (Binóthris)
2740 BC Weneg-Nebty (Ougotlas / Tlás)
47 years Senedj (Sethenes)
Unknown Seth-Peribsen
2720 BC Sekhemib-Perenmaat
25 years Neferkara I (Néphercherés)
8 years Neferkasokar (Sesóchris)
11 years Hudjefa I
18 years Khasekhemwy (Chenerés)

2686 BC Old Kingdom

2686 BC Third Dynasty

2650 BC Djoser (Sesorthos / Tosórthros)
2649 BC Sekhemkhet (Tyréis)
2650 BC Sanakht (Necherôchis / Necherôphes)
2643 BC Khaba
2637 BC Huni (Áches)

2613 BC Fourth Dynasty

2613 BC Sneferu (Sóris)
2589 BC Khufu (Cheops / Suphis I)
2566 BC Djedefre (Rátoises)
2558 BC Khafre (Chéphren / Suphis II)
2570 BC Baka / Bauefrê (Bikheris)
2532 BC Menkaure (Menchéres)
2503 BC Shepseskaf (Seberchéres)
2500 BC (Thamphthis)

2496 BC Fifth Dynasty

2496 BC Userkaf
2490 BC Sahure
2477 BC Neferirkare Kakai
2460 BC Neferefre Izi
2458 BC Shepseskare Netjeruser
2445 BC Nyuserre Ini
2422 BC Menkauhor Kaiu
2414 BC Djedkare Isesi
2375 BC Unas

2345 BC Sixth Dynasty

2345 BC Teti
2333 BC Userkare
2332 BC Meryre Pepi I
2283 BC Merenre Nemtyemsaf I
2278 BC Neferkare Pepi II
2200 BC Neferka
2183 BC Merenre Nemtyemsaf II
2182 BC Neitiqerty (Nitocris) Siptah I
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Old 02-03-2022, 11:50 PM   #9
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This is quite interesting because it does leap out at me that the final end of Aragorn's line, by this extrapolation, approximately coincides with the end of the Old Kingdom of Egypt.

The start of the Fifth Age, perhaps?
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Old 02-07-2022, 02:59 PM   #10
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It very well could be, thanks to Huinesoron's insight.

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=19474
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