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Old 08-18-2021, 10:17 AM   #1
Findegil
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Notes on Motives in the Simarillion

This thread will give the text of parts of the Myths Transformed section of HoME X, dealing with the enemies. The First draft was done by ArcusCalion. But I added MT VI and changed some small points.

Our basis text is that of MT VII B: Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion given in HoME X. In cooperated are, parts of MT VII A and MT VI.

The markings are:
NoM-XX for tracking any changes to text basis text.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
example = text changed for grammatical reasons
...... = This section of the paragraph is unchanged from the source and not given here to reduce the amount of text.

As always here the chapter is given striped of most of the text just to document the changes we did. Following the text will be a short reasoning for each of these changes.
Quote:
<MT VII B
Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion
NoM-00.1<MT VI
Melkor Morgoth{.}
Melkor must {be made}was far more powerful … complete.)
{Later, he must}He was not be able to … into retreat.
The war against Utumno was … But Melkor had already progressed some way towards becoming 'the Morgoth, a tyrant (or central tyranny and will), {+}and his agents'. Only the total contained the old power of the complete Melkor; … The Valar {find}found that they {can}could deal with his agents (sc. armies, Balrogs, etc.) piecemeal. So that they come at last to Utumno itself and {find}found that 'the Morgoth' has no longer for the moment … contact. NoM-00.2<LQ Thus it was Tulkas{ it was} who at the last wrestled with Melkor and overthrew him, and he was bound with the chain Angainor that Aul had wrought, and led captive; and the world had peace for a great age.> NoM-00.3<Moved from below Melkor {is}was taken back to Valinor going last (save for Tulkas[footnote to the text: Tulkas represents the good side of 'violence' in the war against evil. This is an absence of all compromise which will even face apparent evils (such as war) rather than parley; and does not (in any kind of pride) think that any one less than Eru can redress this, or rewrite the tale of Arda.] who NoM-00.4{follows bearing Angainor and}followed, clinking {it}at Angainor to remind Melkor).
But at the council> Manw at last {faces}faced Melkor again, as he {has}had not done since he entered Arda. Both {are}were amazed: … he has now less personal force than Manw, and can no longer daunt him with his gaze.
Either Manw {must tell}told him so or he {must }himself suddenly {realize}realized (or both) that this has happened: he is 'dispersed'. But the lust to have creatures under him, dominated, {has}had become habitual … he cannot bring himself to do it.[footnote to the text: One of the reasons … out of his control.] As with all other characters there must {be}[u]have been[/b] a trembling moment when it is in the balance: he nearly repents - and does not, and becomes much wickeder, and more foolish.
NoM-00.5{Possibly (and he thinks it possible) he could now at that moment be}[u]He had already been[/b] humiliated against his own will and 'chained' –{ if and} before his dispersed forces could reassemble. So - as soon as he {has}had mentally rejected repentance - he (just like Sauron afterwards on this model) {makes}made a mockery of self-abasement and repentance. From which actually he {gets}got a kind of perverted pleasure … his true primeval nature.] He {feigns}feigned remorse and repentance. He actually {kneels}kneeled before Manw and {surrenders}surrendered - in the first instance to avoid being chained NoM-00.6<editorial addition any longer> by the Chain Angainor, which {once upon him }he {fears}feared would not ever be able to be shaken off. But also suddenly he {has}had the idea of penetrating … So he {offers}offered to become … hurts he {has}had done. It {is}was this offer which {seduces}seduced or {deludes}deluded Manw - Manw {must be shown to have}has his own inherent fault (though not sin):[footnote to the text: Every finite creature … serving Eru.] he has become … he {grants}granted Melkor's prayer.
NoM-00.7{Melkor is taken … Melkor).
}But{ at the council} Melkor {is}was not given immediate freedom. The Valar in assembly {will}would not tolerate this. Melkor {is}was remitted to Mandos (to stay … for redress).
Then he {begins}began to doubt …- but he {is}was now absolutely isolated from his agents and in enemy territory. He {cannot}could not do it. Therefore he {swallows}swallowed the bitter pill … of being faithless).
NoM-00.8 The rest of the story, with Melkor's release, … which it could be said derive from this primeval model{?}), {can then proceed more or less as}has already been told.
(i)
Sauron was ‘greater’, effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. … or of subordinates and dominated creatures.
Sauron, however, inherited the ‘corruption’ of Arda, … such as small flowers.[Footnote to the text: If such things were forced upon his attention, he was angry and hated them, as coming from other minds than his own.]
Thus, as 'Morgoth’, when Melkor was … and a world in potential.
Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. … and an end, the End, in itself.[Footnote to the text: But his capability of corrupting other minds, and even engaging their service, was a residue from the fact that his original desire for 'order' had really envisaged the good estate (especially physical well-being) of his 'subjects.']
Morgoth had no 'plan': … and his hatred of NoM-01{God}[Eru] (which must end in nihilism). Sauron could not, of course, be a 'sincere' atheist. … and Men under NoM-02{God}[Eru]'s curse and wrath. … the study of people than of animals.
Sauron was not a 'sincere' atheist, but he preached atheism, because it weakened resistance to himself (and he had ceased to fear NoM-03{God}[Eru]'s action in Arda). … To wean one of NoM-04b{the God-fearing}[those faithful to Eru or at least still fearing him] from their allegiance it is best to propound another unseen object of allegiance and another hope of benefits; propound to him a Lord who will sanction what he desires and not forbid it. … that he corrupted to his allegiance.
(ii)
No one, not even one of the Valar, … swiftly becomes corrupted.
Much could thus 'go on behind Manw’s back': … and the tidings of his messengers.
He, like Melkor, NoM-04.5{practically never}[only seldom] is seen or heard of outside or far away from his own halls and permanent residence. Why is this? For no very profound reason. NoM-05 The Government is always in {Whitehall. King Arthur is usually in Camelot or Caerleon}[the seat of power], and news and adventures come there and arise there. The 'Elder King' is obviously not going to be finally defeated or destroyed, at least not before some ultimate NoM-06b {'Ragnarok'}[Dagor Dagorath] - which even for us is still in the future, so he can have no real 'adventures'. NoM-07{But, if you keep him at home, the issue of any particular event (since it cannot then result in a final 'checkmate') can remain in literary suspense. }Even to the final war against Morgoth it is NoM-08{Fionwe son}[Enw herald] of Manw who leads out the power of the Valar. When NoM-09{we move out }Manw [leaves Valinor ]it will be the last battle, and the end of the World (or of 'Arda Marred') as the Eldar would say. Morgoth's staying 'at home' has, as described above, quite a different reason: his fear of being killed or even hurt NoM-10{ (the literary motive is not present, for since he is pitted against the Elder King, the issue of any one of his enterprises is always in doubt)}.

Melkor 'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the NoM-11{hra}[erma], the 'flesh' or physical matter, of Arda. … nourished by the NoM-12 {hra}[erma] of Arda, … had an effect upon their spirits.
But in this way Morgoth lost (or exchanged, or transmuted) the greater part of his original 'angelic' powers, … other evils as Sauron practiced with it and upon it.)
It is quite possible, … - as all things could.)
(iii)
The Valar 'fade' and become more impotent, … Only Eru may or can alter the 'Music'. NoM-13 <MT VII A (The wiser they became the less power they had to do anything - save by counsel.)> The last major effort, of this demiurgic kind, … against a fortress and a dungeon.
This appearance of selfish faineance in the Valar in the NoM-14{mythology}[legends] as told is {(though I have not explained it or commented on it) I think} only an 'appearance', … It has to be remembered that the NoM-15b{'mythology' is}[legends are] represented as being two stages removed from a true record: {it is}they are based first upon Elvish records … to the Valar.
Even so, and on the grounds of the stories as received, … experienced the Blessed Realm.
In their association with the warring Eldar … days when the Elves would 'fade'.
The last intervention with physical force by the Valar, … and vast obedient armies.
The war was successful, … It may however refer inaccurately[Footnote to the text: Since the minds of Men (and even of the Elves) were inclined to confuse the 'Void', as a conception of the state of Not-being, outside Creation or E, with the conception of vast spaces within E, especially those conceived to lie all about the enisled 'Kingdom of Arda' (which we should probably call the Solar System.)] to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda.
In any case, in seeking to absorb or rather to infiltrate himself throughout 'matter', what was then left of him was no longer powerful enough to re-clothe itself. … be diminished and renewed.[Footnote to the text: If they do not sink below a certain level. … It will then remain forever in impotent desire or memory of desire.] The dark spirit of Melkor's 'remainder' might be expected, … a dark shadow, brooding on the confines of Arda, and yearning towards it.
Nonetheless the breaking of Thangorodrim … as it was also the last of those in 'mythological' personalized (but non-human) form.
NoM-16{It may be noted that Sauron's first defeat was achieved by the Nmenreans alone (though Sauron was not in fact overthrown personally: his 'captivity' was voluntary and a trick). In the first overthrow and disembodiment of Sauron in Middle-earth (neglecting the matter of Lthien)}><MT VII A Similarly to the Valar, the Elves faded, having introduced 'art and science'. Men will also 'fade', … or as they called it 'Arda Marred' (NoM-17{Arda Sahta}[Arda Hastaina]), and the achievement of 'Arda Healed' (Arda Envinyanta). … and also a state of redress and bliss beyond the 'circles of the world'.)>
NoM-00.1: Here right at the beginning I put in MT VI. I think it fits very well under the general headline. In the whole of that text I tried to fix the verb forms according to the following rule: change to past tense when it describes some event in the past, keep present tense when it is either a general statement (often found in footnotes) or a permanent state. E.g. Melkor kneeling before Manw must be changed to past tense, but his inability to daunt him with his gaze is left in present tense, since it is considered a permanent state that would be true still if they would meet again at any later time (even at the time of the writing of this text). Please speak up if you don’t agree to that handling all together or to any particular case.
NoM-00.2, NoM-00.3: With this two changes LQ I tried to bring the text into accord with the story line proposed by Aiwendil in the chapter The Coming of the Elves.
NoM-00.4: As we have Melkor now chained with Angainor, Tulkas can not bear it behind. But I think it is reasonable that he would guard Melkor going behind him and holding probably the end of the chain to prevent him from any try to sneak away.
NoM-00.5: Since Melkor was already defeated by Tulkas and is chained with Angainor we have to change the text here accordingly.
NoM-00.6: In our version he can not avoid being chained since he is so already.
NoM-00.7: This passage was moved to make the first meeting of Manw and Melkor take place during the council.
NoM-00.8: I made the minimal necessary change here, but I am in doubt if we should not skip the entire paragraph.
From here on the changes were first proposed by ArcusCalion, but he did not provide a reasoning for them. As far as possible I will give these as I see them. When my editing is different from ArcusCalions first proposal I marked that with an additional b in the marker and will give his original proposal here in the notes. Additional editings, proposed by me, are given a marker like NoM-XX.X.
NoM-01 - NoM-03: I am not sure if the use of ‘God’ is because Tolkien as author speaks about his creation or because the text is so early that the use of ‘God’ was more common. But either way, I agree with ArcusCalion that we have to change it here.
NoM-04b: ArcusCalion proposed only to change ‘the God fearing’ => ‘those faithful to Eru’ but I think that Ar-Pharazn might be called fearing Eru but for sure not faithful to him.
NoM-04.5: We just a few paragraphs above discussed the last instance of Manw leaving Valinor during the War of the Powers, therefore I introduce that change.
NoM-05: The references to the Whitehall, King Arthur and Camelot or Caerleon have to go.
NoM-06b: ArcusCalion proposed to replace ‘ultimate ‘Ragnarok’ by ‘ultimate battle’, which is reasonable. But from UT, Istari we have the elvish name of the Middle-earth equivalent of ‘Ragnarok’, which I propose a ‘precise’ replacement here.
NoM-07 & NoM-10: Here we have Tolkien speaking about his own literary technique. We clearly have to remove these sentences. But just for the record: I do not fully agree to Tolkien in the first instance: Manw is not Eru. Thus he could be dethroned before the final End with out the themes of Eru failing completely. Eru during the Music of the Ainur twice counter acted Melkors discord: in the First instance we are told that Manw was the main instrument of Eru’s new theme, but in the second that were the Children of Eru. For that reason as soon as Elves and Men have entered the history of Arda Manw’s supreme tasked had been accomplished and he would have been abdicable in the sense meant here by Tolkien. Anyhow we see Manw ‘endangering’ himself during the War of the Powers, where we might assume we are still in Eru’s first new theme or right at the beginning of the second, so that Manw as preserver of Arda as habitation for the Children of Eru’s is still clearly very much needed. While he stayed bake at Valinor during the War of Wrath, which must be right inside the second new theme of Eru, when we might rule that he is abdicable. And in the end we might view him as being dethroned, when Valinor is removed from the circle of Arda after the rebellion of the Nmenreans.
NoM-08: I think this is a regular change, but ArcusCalion gave it a marker, so that marker will stay for reference.
NoM-09: ‘we move out’ has to be changed for sure, but I am unsure if a change to ‘moves out’ wouldn’t be sufficient. We have form LT some ideas about Dagor Dagorath and there some fights are fought on the very plains of Valinor. In accordance with that(?) UT, Istari uses the phrase ‘descend from the Mountain’. But that has of course the problem that Manw is constantly seen at Councils of the Valar which are held in the plain of Valinor. So ‘moves out’ would not only be nearer to the original text but also less specific.
NoM-11 & NoM-12: I don’t know ArcusCalions reason behind this change. I thought that hra is still a valid word for a body, and thus usable here figuratively.
NoM-13: We have to discuss if this sentence was left out by propose or by accident. In the first case we should not add it back in.
NoM-14 & NoM-15b: In this cases ‘mythology has to go. In the second instance ArcusCalion proposed ‘’mythology’’ => ‘histories’. Most probably he made that difference because of the quotation marks. But honestly, I do not see why we shouldn’t use the same replacement in both cases. To mark a difference, we could use still the quotation marks. At least ‘histories’ sounds out of place, so if a sharp differentiation is wanted than ‘tales’ would be a better replacement in one of the cases.
NoM-16: ArcusCalion proposed to skip this last passage, and I think his reason was the incompleteness. It is as well not any good as transition to the reminder of MT VII A which has to follow here.
NoM-17: Again I don’t know where ‘Hastaina’ comes from. But I must admit that I was to lacy to look that up. ArcusCalion, can you explain that change out of mind or do we have to re-search it?
As always, please feel free to disagree with me. First drafts have ever benefited from input of other members.
Respectfully
Findegil

Last edited by Findegil; 08-18-2021 at 10:22 AM.
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Old 08-18-2021, 01:05 PM   #2
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Fin all of your points I agree to. You were correct in guessing my reasoning for most if not all of these. I will explain my elvish changes below.

NoM-11 & NoM-12: This change was based on a very late change to the text of Laws and Customs of the Eldar regarding the word for the 'matter' of Arda. Originally Tolkien referred to the 'matter of Arda as hrn (sometimes rhn) which he then changed to hrondo and finally hra as the word for 'physical flesh, matter'. However, he then went back and changed hrn to mean 'matter, physical substance' as opposed to hra meaning 'body, flesh.' This finally was changed in the margins to orma which was elsewhere written as erma (I believe in Osanwe-Kenta which was written after the base text of Laws and Customs). This is the (long and convoluted) reasoning behind the change.

NoM-17: This change was made based on the dating of the references. I believe Hastaina was written in (i believe) Laws and Customs as a later note. I will have to double-check when I am home and have access to my texts, but I know this was an attempt on my part to standardize it. As far as I know both are valid late-term Quenya, with hasta- meaning 'to mar' and sak- meaning 'to hurt.' However, the word sak- seems to conflict with the word sac- meaning 'to close'. Both would be written sac- in Third Age Quenya, so to avoid the linguistic uncertainty, and also based on the later change in the other document, I went with Hastaina. Hopefully this reasoning makes sense. As I said, many of the works in Volume 3 get very technical in terms of the Elvish linguistic development.

Last edited by ArcusCalion; 08-20-2021 at 08:03 AM.
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Old 08-20-2021, 08:47 AM   #3
Findegil
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Okay I had to change my mind about the story line as explained in the Thread The Coming of the Elves. Here is what is to be changed from the version given above:
Quote:
contact. NoM-00.2b<LQ Thus it was Tulkas{ it was} who at the last wrestled with Melkor and overthrew him, and he was bound with the chain Angainor that Aul had wrought{, and led captive; and the world had peace for a great age}.> NoM-00.3b Manw at last {faces}faced Melkor again, as he {has}had not done since he entered Arda. Both {are}were amazed:

Against the advice of some of the Valar (such as Tulkas) he NoM-00.65{grants}proposed to grant Melkor's prayer.
NoM-00.7b Melkor is taken back to Valinor going last (save for Tulkas who NoM-00.4b{follows bearing Angainor and}followed, clinking {it}at Angainor to remind Melkor).
But at the council Melkor {is}was not given immediate freedom. The Valar in assembly {will}would not tolerate this. Melkor {is}was remitted to Mandos (to stay
NoM-00.2b: As Manw should meet Melkor at Utumno, we have to skip the last half sentence.
NoM-00.3b & NoM-00.7b: Here a passage from below was inserted, this move now is no longer necessary.
NoM-00.65: A concession to let the story line of AAm/LQ work: How could Manw be said to grant the prayer if Melkor is still dragged away bound by Angainor?
NoM-00.4b: The change remains the same just the placement is changed therefore the additional b in the marker.
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Findegil
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Old 08-21-2021, 08:33 AM   #4
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Looks good Fin!
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