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Old 08-12-2022, 05:19 AM   #41
William Cloud Hicklin
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Quote:
"9 [6>]8 [F>]��". The MS have two lines, one seems to be "8 7 S" with "7 S" removed, another seems to be "9 7 S" with "7 S" changed to "8 ��". So I think Tolkien's intention might be "[8 7 S>]9 8 ��".
The left-hand column, of "modern" dates, was added later in pencil after the SR dates had been corrected and changed, so I think 8 and 9 are out of the conversation here. The original date entry for the Company reaching Hollin has been crossed out beyond recall; while it is a logical deduction that it said 5 S, I couldn't include suppositions.

Also, the original number changed to 8 was 6, not 7

Quote:
they go by winding ways
Yes, the closing bracket was omitted inadvertently

Quote:
p. 44. I think maybe Tolkien later rejected moving the boxed cell on Jan 18 to Jan 17
I don't believe so; Tolkien frequently ornamented things like arrows, as a natural doodler; notice that the arrow also has an elaborate tail tuft as well! When he crossed things out, he usually did so emphatically and unmistakably.


------------------------------


I must express some surprise that you have obtained reproductions of pp 2,3 and 8, since acc. to Bill Fliss only pp. 6, 9 and 10 have ever been published. Where did they come from?
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Old 08-12-2022, 09:58 AM   #42
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Thanks for the insights! 2,3,6,8 are published in Tolkien: Voyage en Terre du Milieu (9782717728064). https://www.tolkienguide.com/modules...hibition%20Map
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Old 08-13-2022, 04:21 AM   #43
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I note a very interesting thing: All the data of Orcs' movement from Feb.27-28 are based on the careful calculation in MSS 4/2/19/11a (image published in Voyage en Terre du Milieu). I guess other calculations in 4/2/19 finally entered the Schemes too.

S3 says: [Feb 27] At 8 a.m. the Isengarders are 36 miles out on plain: seen by Legolas. By nightfall Orcs are going faster are 72 miles on way. They reach S. end of Downs at 9 p.m. [Feb 28] Isengarders pass N. end of Downs at 4:30 a.m; rest at a point 5 miles beyond. At 5 a.m they go on till 10 a.m (seen by Riders), and are then 25 miles N. of downs, and turn towards eaves of Fangorn (25 m. further on). Rest till 10:30 a.m.

MSS 4/2/19/11a says:
[Feb 26] go on at 4mph
7-8[am] 36 miles [here wrote something that could be "seen by Legolas" but doesn't look like so]
8-midday 52[miles]
rest 1/2 hour
12:30-5:30pm 72 miles (Sun down)
rest 1/2 hour
6-11pm 92 miles reach S. end of Downs about 9pm
rest 1/2 hour
11:30-4:30am([Feb]27) 112[mil]
Now clear of Downs, and 5 miles begin rest 1/2 hour till 5am
5am-10am 132 miles
22 N. of Downs

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Old 08-13-2022, 06:03 PM   #44
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Folder 19 is a fascinating miscellany, into which (presumably) Christopher put everything related to distance or measurement which didn't seem to fit with anything else. It includes inter alia "Hobbit long measures," and a remarkably large number of nots on ent-strides and how fast ents could travel
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Old 08-13-2022, 11:58 PM   #45
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Yes, this is one of the most interesting folders for me. ďHobbit Long MeasuresĒ and ďent-strideĒ are published in Maker and Reader's Companion.
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Old 08-19-2022, 01:08 PM   #46
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I will be hosting a Reddit "Ask Me Anything" about the Chronology on the subreddit /r/tolkienfans next Wednesday, August 24, between 12 noon and 2 p.m. EDT (UTC-4).

Any questions you have about Tolkien's LR timeline, or more generally about his writings- please, bring it on!
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Old 08-27-2022, 03:51 AM   #47
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Mr. Hicklin, I have compared the pictures in JRRT: The Art of the Manuscript, and suggest the following errata entries for your consideration:

p50 their camp on the bank. > their camp on bank. Sauron will not permit > Sauron will not yet permit
p75 Missing the new moon sign Ͻ in "21 W." cell. The 3 ditto marks should be right double quotation marks, intead of left ones.
p82 As you suggested, Tolkien added an emtpy entry "Ͻ 17"[July] above "18" to remind himself of moon phase. I believe he didn't changed "18" to "17". Tolkien did the same thing on the next page, where he didn't cross out the rejected "Ͻ 17"[August], but moved it to a new place to fit the modified timeline. So p82 should have two emtpy entries "Ͻ 17"[July] "Ͻ 17"[August], and "17 21" should have "17" crossed out.
p82 It seems "19 Legolas visits the Caves of Aglarond." is modified from "18" after Tolkien changed Aug. 14 to Aug. 18.
p84 while Gandalf and Celeborn and Galadriel hold converse and council. > while Gandalf [Inserted: Elrond] Celeborn and Galadriel hold converse and council.
N. and W. > [deleted: N. and W.]
p86 They reach Bree on evening of 28. > They reach Bree on evening of 28. (95 miles)
Missing full moon sign before Oct 30.
Nov 2 and 3 are revised from 1 and 2, respectively.

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Old 10-20-2022, 07:29 PM   #48
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Sneak peak of cover can be found here:

https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Tolk..._19_Supplement
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Old 10-20-2022, 10:31 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by BÍthberry View Post
Sneak peak of cover can be found here:

https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Tolk..._19_Supplement
Thanks- but it isn't just a sneak peek, copies are now shipping.
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Old 10-21-2022, 11:49 AM   #50
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Thanks- but it isn't just a sneak peek, copies are now shipping.
Michael Drout posted a photo on FB yesterday, but I no longer have the photobucket account to let me post it here so I used the TG link. Drout didn't say they were shipping, just that the regular vol 19 was about to go to the printer. It's a very nice cover!
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Old 10-21-2022, 12:28 PM   #51
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It's one of Tolkien's cooler diagrams (even if he later rejected the whole idea)
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Old 06-17-2023, 09:43 AM   #52
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Errata list

ERRATA
Chronology of the Lord of the Rings, TS 19 Supp.

p. 40, January: there should be a closing square bracket after “they go by winding ways.”
p. 50, Feb 20, Company: “their camp on the bank.” > “their camp on bank.”
p. 50, Feb. 23, Orcs & Enemies: “Sauron will not permit” > “Sauron will not yet permit”
p. 52, Feb. 25, Company: “1:30” > “1.30”
p. 56, Feb. 28, Orcs and Enemies: “4:30” > 4.30;” “10:30 > 10.30;” “11:25” > “11.25.” Feb. 29: “11:20” > “11.20” (twice).
p. 57, n.69: “can run [?for] 6 mph for about 50 miles." > “can trot [?for] 6 mph for about 50 miles."
p. 60, Mar. 2, Orcs and Enemies: “(about 1 p.m)” > “(about 1 p.m.)”
p. 64, March 6, Men & Allies: Missing the full stop at the end of "They camp 20 miles or so on way".
p.64, March 7, Men & Allies: "by hidden paths in the mountains" > "by hidden path in lower mountains”
p. 66, March 10, Aragorn-Theoden: "camps 30 miles on way" > "camps 30 miles east on way".
p. 69, Note 98: Delete all from “However” to the end (redundant given p. 139)
p. 71: Note 103 is redundant vis-ŗ-vis Note 98; delete.
p. 74, March 16, date column: The "F. 16" cell should include "LQ"
p. 75, March 21, date column: The "21.W" cell should include "Ͻ".
p. 75, March 21-23, Frodo and Sam: The curly quotes should be replaced with straight ditto marks (")
p. 82, July: “10 18 17 > “10 18.” Insert line between 7 15 and 10 18: “[Inserted:] Ͻ 17”.
p. 82, August: Insert line between 10 14 and 14 18: “[Inserted:] Ͻ 17”
p. 82, August: "17 21" > “17 21”
p. 83: Delete Note 130 (it’s nonsense, acc to the corrections above)
p. 84, Sep 6: “while Gandalf and Celeborn and Galadriel hold converse and council.” > “while Gandalf [Inserted: Elrond] Celeborn and Galadriel hold converse and council.”
p. 84, Sep 13: “Elrond Gandalf and the Hobbits are to go N. and W. towards Rivendell” > “[Inserted: Elrond] Gandalf and the Hobbits [Inserted: are to] go N. and W. towards Rivendell”
p. 85, Note 132: Delete last sentence.
p. 86, Oct 28: “They reach Bree on evening of 28.” > They reach Bree on evening of 28. (95 miles)”
p. 86, Oct 30: The “30” should be preceded by “”
p. 117, n. 180: “30 minutes” > “37 minutes”
p. 134: “chronological overhaul” should be followed by an exclamation point, not a full stop.
p. 136, Table 11, Mar. 9, Frodo and Sam/Before: “Dawnless Day” should be in bold, not italics. Remainder of box should be in plain text. Mar. 10: “Climbing in Ephel Duath” should be in plain text.
_________________________________
Note: unfortunately the BD forum software doesn't support strikethroughs or alternate fonts
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Old 06-22-2023, 02:50 PM   #53
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Thank you for the errata. Have you a page where you update this? Or you are going to share here? Congrats for your work.

Greetings
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Old 06-23-2023, 12:28 PM   #54
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No, I don't have a website, not even a Facebook page; but TS it seems will be publishing the list.
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Old 08-05-2023, 10:05 AM   #55
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William, can you explain that last part of the 'Chronology'?

Quote:
...and the realm of Moria shall be yours for ever, No [orc/one?] will Sauron suffer to assail you, or will suffer any [orc/one?] to challenge you again, and [?thus] they were deceived by Sauron and [?received] his aid whence he learned their secrets. Of his but Celebrimbor and Narvi . . .
Does this quote refer to the Second or the Third Age? Given the mention of Celebrimbor and Narvi, as well as the Dwarves receiving aid from Sauron (either by Sauron giving them the Ring of Thror, or alternatively Celebrimbor giving a Ring to Durin, indirectly assisting Sauron), I would imagine that it takes place in the Second Age, before Celebrimbor became a pin-cushion.


However, given the fact that the Orcs were clearly a major problem for the Dwarves at the time, it leads me to think that this exchange took place after the expulsion of the Dwarves from Khazad-dum, as well as the mention of Moria (a derogatory term), and the implication that the Dwarves aren't in possession of Moria.

I'm pretty confused by this passage.
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Old 08-05-2023, 06:58 PM   #56
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I believe that the quote dates to the late Third Age and is what the Nazgul offered to Dain in exchange for the Ring or information leading to its recovery ("the least of rings.... a trifle that Sauron fancies...").
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Old 08-05-2023, 08:10 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithadan View Post
I believe that the quote dates to the late Third Age and is what the Nazgul offered to Dain in exchange for the Ring or information leading to its recovery ("the least of rings.... a trifle that Sauron fancies...").
But didn't Dain refuse the offer?

And what about the mentions of Celebrimbor and Narvi?
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Old 08-11-2023, 11:02 AM   #58
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I'm pretty certain the reference is to Annatar, even though "Moria" is anachronistic (but then , it's on the gate inscription!). Not just the mentions of Celebrimbor and Narvi, but the idea that they were cozened by false promises. Sauron is not offering to give Moria back, but that he'd refrain from trying to take it (let's remember that in the Second Age Sauron was pretty much Emperor of the World outside Lindon, Eregion and Moria).

A second reason is that the handwriting gives me the impression of being considerably later than ca 1950 when the Chronology itself was done, and feels to me like it was aborted drafting for Of the Rings of Power or perhaps the History of Galadriel and Celeborn.
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Old 08-11-2023, 04:35 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin View Post
I'm pretty certain the reference is to Annatar, even though "Moria" is anachronistic (but then , it's on the gate inscription!). Not just the mentions of Celebrimbor and Narvi, but the idea that they were cozened by false promises. Sauron is not offering to give Moria back, but that he'd refrain from trying to take it (let's remember that in the Second Age Sauron was pretty much Emperor of the World outside Lindon, Eregion and Moria).

A second reason is that the handwriting gives me the impression of being considerably later than ca 1950 when the Chronology itself was done, and feels to me like it was aborted drafting for Of the Rings of Power or perhaps the History of Galadriel and Celeborn.
I know that you spent years on these texts: but how can you tell when any of it was written?


It's honestly amazing...
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Old 08-12-2023, 12:21 PM   #60
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It's nothing more concrete than just a feeling. Like most people's, Tolkien's handwriting changed over time, moving from one variety of awful to another, and the penciled scrawl on the back of the Chronology seems to resemble 1960s scribble more than it does early-50s scribble. But, no, nothing definite can be drawn from handwriting, aside from the fact that notes in ball-point are necessarily from the 50s or later.

My very provisional dating instead has to do with what he was writing when, and the only two texts I can think of that that scrap might have been intended for. (It's perhaps worth noting that, aside from their signatures on the west-gate, Celebrimbor and Narvi appear nowhere in the Lord of the Rings, not even the Appendices.)
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Old 08-21-2023, 10:05 AM   #61
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Could you provide Marquette shelfmarks for time-schemes II and A-D? It appears one of them is MSS 3/1/34.
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Old 10-08-2023, 04:30 AM   #62
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RC507: "March 5: 11.30 leaves Dolbaran". C138: "March 5 11.20 leaves Dolbaran"
RC508: ", 176 miles from Edoras". C66 says this sentence is rejected.
After a study of the materials, now I think Reader's Companion is correct in these two readings.

In S3 March 6 entry, Gandalf rides "139 miles between 11.30 p.m on 5 Mar. and [7>] 7.30 a.m", the time and distance would exactly match MSS 4/2/17/14a, if one accepts the "11.30" reading:

Quote:
5 Mar 11.20[?30] leaves Dolbaran
6 Mar 7.30 sights Edoras having ridden (with brief rest) at 16 mph. 136 miles. Rides on to Edoras (139 mi)
And the correct reading of S3 March 8 entry should be "Errand-riders of Gondor pass, [at] 176 miles from Edoras." (Tolkien emended the period after "pass" to comma when he deleted "Gandalf halts".) This is actually directly from MSS 4/2/17/14a:

Quote:
8 Mar mid > 2 am 32 160
4 > 6 am 32 192

Episode of moon must be therefore in early hours of 8[March] (5 a.m.) and the errand-riders would then be about 176 miles out from Gondor which they should reach [i.e. reach Dunharrow] by dark next day.
Tolkien (or H&S) made a mistake in "176 miles out from Gondor", which should be "176 miles to Edoras" or something similar (your article doesn't contain this sentence from 4/2/17, and the original image is not released, so I am unsure of the exact intended reading). At 4 am Gandalf was 160 miles from Edoras, and 6 am he was at 192 miles, so at 5 am he was 176 miles from Edoras, and 118 miles from Minas Tirith. This is the intended time and place where they met the errand-riders. (If one accepts the meeting place to be "176 miles out from Gondor", then the meeting time would be 9pm in the previous night, which happens to be the time Pippin sees moon in the previous chronology.)

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Old 10-10-2023, 09:10 AM   #63
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Tolkien (or H&S) made a mistake in "176 miles out from Gondor", which should be "176 miles to Edoras" or something similar
Concur. The document reads very clearly "Gondor" not "Edoras," which can only be a slip in what was a very hastily jotted note. Since the subject is "Errand-riders" and he used the preposition "out," the natural reference grammatically would be to distance from origin, although this plainly was not what he really meant.

Quote:
In S3 March 6 entry, Gandalf rides "139 miles between 11.30 p.m on 5 Mar. and [7>] 7.30 a.m", the time and distance would exactly match MSS 4/2/17/14a, if one accepts the "11.30" reading:
Don't concur. MSS 4/2/17/14a ("Gandalf's Ride") unmistakably reads "11.20:"*
March
5 11.20 Leaves Dolbaran
I don't think the ten minutes mattered a great deal to the T/D calculation, but it does seem to have been important that Gandalf with Pippin not dawdle after the Nazgul showed!

Remember that the March 6 entry, on Page 8 of MSS 4/2/18, was written before "Gandalf's Ride," in accordance with the old timeline. He saw no need to emend the entry because the leg from Dol Baran to Edoras didn't require changing, and so evidently he omitted his small ten minute adjustment.

*One can compare the "11.20" to the "7.30" immediately below; the 2 cannot be a 3
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Old 10-11-2023, 03:04 AM   #64
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All my doubts are now resolved, thank you!
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Old 10-12-2023, 09:34 AM   #65
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Another question: How do you determine the full moon was on the night of Mar 7/8 rather than March 8/9 in the final timeline? My understanding is:

Evidences for Mar 7/8: almanac time has the full moon at 12:19 am
Frodo sees a full moon on 7/8.

Evidences for Mar 8/9: S2 and S3 say full moon is on Mar 8/9.
Pinpin sees an almost full moon on 7/8.
…omer says "Last night the moon was full" (before 2005 revision) for Mar 9.
Mar 10 mustering on the "2nd day after the full moon" before 2005 revision.

If we ignore the textual history and only focus on final version, it seems to me the evidences for the latter are much stronger. One only has to make one change in LR text to make it work, whereas Mar 7/8 date requires four emendations, treating them as shadows of the past.
Per Chronology LR p114, Tolkien first used the full moon time for Feb 1 1942 (at 9:12 am) and then switched to Mar 3 1942 (at 12:19 am). But I can't find evidence that Tolkien is using the 1942 moon fullness time in the final timeline (I think we can only be certain that 1942 moon fullness dates are used). On the opposite, S3 clearly shows he envisions the moon fullness time at Mar 8 "PM". I can't understand why CT, H&S and you all say otherwise. Have I overlooked anything?

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Old 10-13-2023, 08:12 AM   #66
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Well, it was a fixed data-point that Frodo observed the full moon setting over the Forbidden Pool, and at least as early as Time-scheme S this was the full moon of February 6 (RW Feb 1). With S2 and the one-month delay this became March 8 (RW March 3). This is a basic "fact" that never changed, throughout all of his permutations.

What did get changed around a lot was Pippin's observation of the same moon, since in the original conception he was already in Minas Tirith. However, it was explicit from the first that this was the full moon, and the same one that Frodo saw. The revised Pippin-on-Shadowfax version required some juggling, but Tolkien got there, and this (second) timeline was what made it into V/i. In the third timeline, as laid out unambiguously in S3 the full moon occurred absolutely on the 8th just after midnight, not on the 9th (by which time Frodo had left Henneth Annun on his way to the Crossroads)

The final or S3 timeline, remember, was developed after the book had been completed in draft. Imagine for a moment the difficulty of Tolkien looking back over a million-word book, written over the course of more than a decade, and without an index much less computer search having to remember all the places that dates or moons were referenced and had to be changed! An impossible task, and he didn't get them all. So therefore we have Aragorn's "three days" across Rohan, for example. He clearly did not go back and revise V/i even though technically he ought to have- for instance "so the night was not yet old" is plainly wrong; there is no question that in the final timeline the incident occurs somewhere between midnight and 5 a.m. not in the evening. And, again, this was the same moon on the same night as Frodo's, an essential conception in every phase.

The relation of the muster of Rohan to the moon was always a mess; do keep in mind that the key passage in "The Voice of Saruman" was written all the way back in 1942!
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Old 10-13-2023, 08:27 PM   #67
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I see, so it is the textual history shows Tolkien had relatively firm idea about one event and would adjust other events to it. Even though the final text might appear to suggest otherwise, it is more reasonable to assume he just ignored to revise them, rather than that he changed the idea he took pains to keep for so long.
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Old 10-16-2023, 10:45 AM   #68
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I would say, rather, couldn't do it. Tolkien the nitpicking perfectionist would definitely revise, often to a fanatical extent, to make things consistent; but catching every detail in that massive manuscript, from memory, was beyond him (or any mortal). And so there are inevitable slips (like the phase of the moon over Nimrodel, or Shadowfax' speed relative to normal horses).
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Old 10-18-2023, 07:14 AM   #69
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Indeed, thanks for the comprehensive explanation!
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