Thread: Akallabęth
View Single Post
Old 06-09-2018, 11:07 PM   #5
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
ArcusCalion's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 513
ArcusCalion has just left Hobbiton.
AK-SL-07: Agreed, I like this.

AK-HA-09: Ahh, ok.

AK-SL-08: To the Tar-Mairon question, I see your point. I agree to use Mairon.

AK-HA-12: Hmm this might be difficult then. I will give this more thought.

AK-SL-09: I see that, but Sauron does not yet know the political status of Numenor, and we are told by Tolkien that Sauron referred to himself as Mairon. We therefore cannot use Sauron here, but we may debate if we wish to use the Adunaic name for him: Zigűr (given in the Drowning of Anadune). As to the Elvish, I had forgotten about Tar-Palantir, but I think with Pharazon being a complete continuation of the King's Men and the rule of his father and other anti-elvish peoples, we must assume that he reinstated their policies. It says that Tar-Palantir was the last to support the Faithful, and so I can hardly say that Pharazon would continue to allow the speaking of Quenya.

AK-SL-14: I will then post my proposal for the edit:
Now her voice sang an even-song in the Eressëan tongue, but made by men, long ago. The nightingale ceased. {Elendil}[Isildur] stood still to listen; and the words came to him, far off and strange, as some melody in archaic speech sung sadly in a forgotten twilight in the beginning of man's journey in the world.

AK-SL-13.4 Illu Ilúvatar en {kare}[carnë] Eldain {a firimoin}[ar Fírimain]
ar {antarota}[antanéses] mánnar {Valion}[Valaron]: {numessier}[ëaltë Númessë].....

The Father made the World for elves and mortals, and he gave it into the hands of the Lords, who are in the West.

So sang Fíriel on high, until her voice fell sadly to the question with which that song ends: Man tárë antuva nin Ilúvatar, Ilúvatar, enyárë {tar i tyel}[i metta pella,] írë Anarinya queluva? What will Ilúvatar, O Ilúvatar, give me in that day beyond the end, when my Sun faileth?’ AK-SL-14 <[Footnote: From Helge’s updated version
Ilu Ilúvatar carnë Eldain ar Fírimain
ar antanéses mánnar Valaron: ëaltë Númessë.
Naltë ainë, mánë ar meldë - hequa morion:
alanties. Melkor Mardello lendë: nás mára.
Carneltë Eldain Isil, Hildoin Úr-anar,
yar nar írimë. Ilyain antaneltë lestanen i annar
Ilúvataro. Ilu ná vanya, fanya, ëari,
i cemen, ar ilya ya ëa taissë. Írima ná Númenor.
Nan lá ëa sérë indonyan sinomë tennoio,
an sinomë ëa tyelma, ar euva metta ar i narquelië,
írë ilya nauva nótina, ar ilya hostaina, i mettassë:
ananta úva tárë fárëa, úfárëa!
Mana tárë antuva nin Ilúvatar, Ilúvatar
enyárë i metta pella, írë Anarinya queluva?
The Father made the World for Elves and Mortals, and he gave it into the hands of the Lords. They are in the West. They are holy, blessed, and beloved: save the dark one. He is fallen. AK-SL-14.1 {Melko}[Melkor] has gone from Earth: it is good. For Elves they made the Moon, but for Men the red Sun; which are beautiful. To all they gave in measure the gifts of Ilúvatar. The World is fair, the sky, the seas, the earth, and all that is in them. Lovely is Númenor. But my heart resteth not here forever; for here is ending, and there will be an end and the Fading, when all is counted, and all numbered at last, but yet it will not be enough, not enough. What will the Father, O Father, give me in that day beyond the end when my Sun faileth?]>
'{E man}[Mana tárë] antuvas? What will he give indeed?' said {Elendil}[Isildur]; and stood in sombre thought.
AK-SL-14.1: In the text it is said to be his original name, but we know that is Melkor. Melkor means 'He who arises in might' and Alkar means 'Radiance'. Tolkien uses Melkor in the story, so we are left with a confusing mess of a history. If Alkar is used, it would only be a name for Melkor given in Numenor, since it occurs nowhere else. However, to give a name to the mortal enemy of the universe, and to name him 'Radiance' seems to me to be impossible. Its use in the story clearly suggests it is meant to be his 'true' name, but we know that can't be true. Therefore, I think we must remove it.

AK-SL-28.1: This, for me, is impossible. The 'ancestral speech of Men' clearly means Adunaic, and to have it refer to some (hitherto unmentioned) speech seems to me to be a great liberty taken, and not to be what Tolkien intended. In this older story the situation is clearly different. In this version, there had been far fewer kings of Numenor, and Tarkalion was the first evil king. Therefore all the anti-elvish sentiment was still new and the languages of Men were unused and forgotten. However, in the newer version this is simply not true, and the Adunaic is spoken by the vast majority of Numenoreans as a daily speech. In fact, the use of Adunaic instead of elvish is seen as a sign of the King's Men, (since they took their regnal names in Adunaic) and so to revive some other unknown language would go counter to their goals and culture all along. Therefore I feel very strongly that we cannot use this discussion, due to its outdated and in-applicable nature.

AK-SL-30: Gondowe expressed his concerns for this addition, but to me saying 'it should have been more developed' is not a reason for excluding something. We need a contradiction or an impossibility in order to get rid of something, and as this is new information not found elsewhere, I think it is worth including.

Last edited by ArcusCalion; 06-10-2018 at 10:26 PM.
ArcusCalion is offline   Reply With Quote