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Old 05-28-2019, 07:17 AM   #12
Huinesoron
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Formendacil View Post
But let's say that the window is just open enough that a baby is born in the first years of Arnor--there's still some question whether she would be the Queen-Regnant or the Queen-Consort of the Exiled Dúnedain. In the canon, Arnor and Gondor are clearly constituted as new realms: Elendil is king not because he's got the best surviving Elrosian claim, but because he is the founder of Arnor (and of Gondor because his sons submit to him). Whether this changes with Míriel in the picture is a good question, because it definitely seems likely to me that the Exiles see Arnor and Gondor as a new beginning (and this whole line of speculation does stem from questioning how the Exiles saw Queenship in light of the Númenórean experience).
One point that's worth considering is the divine role of the Kings of Numenor. They were the only ones allowed to speak on the Hallows of Meneltarma - the only ones allowed to pray to Iluvatar. Elendil usurps that right (in a nice way, but he does), and the Stewards do so again later (Cirion swears by the Name, asserting that High Priestly authority), but would that have happened if the legitimate High Priest(ess) was still alive? Probably not, is my thought - but on the other hand, Miriel was probably canny enough to declare Isildur her heir and give him the right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Formendacil View Post
This still doesn't mean that a descendant of them both would necessarily be King after Isildur--not if Isildur is king at all! If Isildur is still taken to succeed Elendil after the Last Alliance, then the principle of "normal" primogeniture seems to be intact: i.e. Isildur's sons still have the senior claim over any of his younger brothers. Granted, it's easy to see a full-grown half-brother of Isildur asserting his claim ahead of Valandil's in Arnor, but I *can't* see Meneldil son of Anárion letting such a scamp like that get ahead of him (and, remember, we're told that Meneldil was the last baby born in Númenor amongst the Faithful, so we're talking about a man OLDER than Elendil/Míriel's baby). If Meneldil was glad to see Isildur gone to Arnor and would not accept Valandil as a High King over him, then it's hard to see him accepting an even younger branch of the family as High King--far more likely you get an EARLY Kinslaying--perhaps with Meneldil backing Valandil's claim or asserting Gondor's complete independence not merely de facto, as happened canonically, but by war--or at least de iure.

Who, if anyone, could judge that legal claim is... unclear. Meneldil could just declare it (much as the Gondorian stewards would for a similar claim in Arvedui's day), asserting that Gondor was not a colony of Númenor, but a new establishment under Isildur and Anárion--and as the heir of the second, deputised as sole king by the first, the Heirs of the defunct Númenórean realm would have no claim to the overlordship of Gondor, a separate realm. Valinor can't be appealed to for a ruling, and I doubt that Elrond would be either interested in meddling OR accepted as a definite authority.
You're... probably right about Meneldil. The collapse of the Arnorian claim to the High Kingship is liable to be repeated in any scenario; it's only if you can establish a strong High King independent of Arnor that you have any hope.

So how about this: Elendil was the same age as Miriel, and he was still fighting to his death at age 322. That's really old for a late Numenorean - Tar-Palantir barely topped 200. To match it you have to go back to somewhere around Tar-Vanimelde, who lived 360 years (and Numenorean women were apparently longer-lived than the men).

So how does the picture change if Tar-Miriel, as sole High Queen after Elendil's death, continues to rule for another 40 years? That's plenty of time to pick a decent heir - either her own child, or one of the two kings at the time.

hS
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