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Old 05-23-2019, 09:49 AM   #11
Formendacil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
While we're doing Miriel AUs, how about this one for the mix:

What if Tar-Miriel had survived the Downfall?

It's not that hard to arrange - she just has to get on a boat with Elendil. Then you have a High Queen over Gondor and Arnor, and assuming she finds an heir - perhaps, in an ironic twist of fate, she marries (a widowed) Elendil for political reasons and has a child - that line can continue even after Isildur's death.

How would things have been different, if the two Dunedain kingdoms had been politically unified (despite having their own lines of what I assume we'd call Princes)? Any thoughts?

hS
There's a few wrinkles here--first of which is Tar-Míriel's age at the time of the Downfall. It was the shadow of age falling on Pharazôn that helped Sauron motivate him toward sailing West. He and Míriel are contemporaries, so even if they're of the line of Elros AND still rather short of the historical norms there, they're on the back nine of life. When is Elrosian menopause?

But let's say that the window is just open enough that a baby is born in the first years of Arnor--there's still some question whether she would be the Queen-Regnant or the Queen-Consort of the Exiled Dúnedain. In the canon, Arnor and Gondor are clearly constituted as new realms: Elendil is king not because he's got the best surviving Elrosian claim, but because he is the founder of Arnor (and of Gondor because his sons submit to him). Whether this changes with Míriel in the picture is a good question, because it definitely seems likely to me that the Exiles see Arnor and Gondor as a new beginning (and this whole line of speculation does stem from questioning how the Exiles saw Queenship in light of the Númenórean experience).

Maybe the best answer to posit is a joint rule--Thingol and Melian, Galadriel and Celeborn-style. This still doesn't mean that a descendant of them both would necessarily be King after Isildur--not if Isildur is king at all! If Isildur is still taken to succeed Elendil after the Last Alliance, then the principle of "normal" primogeniture seems to be intact: i.e. Isildur's sons still have the senior claim over any of his younger brothers. Granted, it's easy to see a full-grown half-brother of Isildur asserting his claim ahead of Valandil's in Arnor, but I *can't* see Meneldil son of Anárion letting such a scamp like that get ahead of him (and, remember, we're told that Meneldil was the last baby born in Númenor amongst the Faithful, so we're talking about a man OLDER than Elendil/Míriel's baby). If Meneldil was glad to see Isildur gone to Arnor and would not accept Valandil as a High King over him, then it's hard to see him accepting an even younger branch of the family as High King--far more likely you get an EARLY Kinslaying--perhaps with Meneldil backing Valandil's claim or asserting Gondor's complete independence not merely de facto, as happened canonically, but by war--or at least de iure.

Who, if anyone, could judge that legal claim is... unclear. Meneldil could just declare it (much as the Gondorian stewards would for a similar claim in Arvedui's day), asserting that Gondor was not a colony of Númenor, but a new establishment under Isildur and Anárion--and as the heir of the second, deputised as sole king by the first, the Heirs of the defunct Númenórean realm would have no claim to the overlordship of Gondor, a separate realm. Valinor can't be appealed to for a ruling, and I doubt that Elrond would be either interested in meddling OR accepted as a definite authority.
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