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-   -   Password (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=10279)

Pervinca Took 04-28-2020 08:09 AM

Great password, but what is the dream?

Huinesoron 04-28-2020 08:23 AM

Ohhh! I'd forgotten Aragorn was a troll-botherer in his own right. Very nice (and nice password as a whole, G55)!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 722773)
But then, I don't know the Sindarin for chocolate-smith. :) Presumably a happy place like Rivendell has one, though!

Well! Although Tolkien inexplicably didn't provide a word for 'chocolate', we do know that the Eldar were willing to adopt words from foreign languages phoentically. Khuzdul "Khazad" became "Casar" in Quenya and "Cadhad" in Sindarin, for instance.

So when they ran into the Nahuatl word "xocolātl", I think it's plausible that Quenya-speaking elves would have adapted it, too. My efforts suggest "Hyacola" as a Q. transcription; stick 'smith' (-tamo, -tano) on the end and you find the Quenya word "*Hyacolatan".

Sindarin comes out pretty similar: I make the drink itself "Hocolaut". 'Smith' is tân, which mutates to -dan, giving us the nice simple "Hocolaudan" for 'Chocolate-smith'.

Finally, for good measure, I believe the plural would be "Heceloedain", though there's a possibility they would only pluralise the 'smith' element: "Hocolaudain".

hS

Galadriel55 04-28-2020 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 722776)
Great password, but what is the dream?

I thought the Troll who sat alone would love "long shanks". Did I overcomplicate it?

Pervinca Took 04-28-2020 08:27 AM

Oh - he dreamed of them because he wanted to eat them? Or do you mean the lonely troll who befriended Perry-The-Winkle?

...

Oh, sorry. It says he sat alone in the first verse. It's the shank-chewing one.

I did guess the password, and I have plenty of new ones, but Huinesoron seemed to do a lot of the work. Huey, do you want to do one, or shall I go ahead?

Galadriel55 04-28-2020 08:30 AM

By the way, the answer to the impossible clue is Frodo. Which would have been very easy had I told you that it is hebrew words, written with Russian letters, with each word spelled backwards. :D :p

Pervinca Took 04-28-2020 08:44 AM

Ah! If each word is spelled backwards, what is the phrase that describes him?

Huinesoron 04-28-2020 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 722779)
I did guess the password, and I have plenty of new ones, but Huinesoron seemed to do a lot of the work. Huey, do you want to do one, or shall I go ahead?

I'm happy for you to take it - I don't have any written, and your Longshanks explanation got closer to the mark than mine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galadriel55 (Post 722780)
By the way, the answer to the impossible clue is Frodo. Which would have been very easy had I told you that it is hebrew words, written with Russian letters, with each word spelled backwards.

Oh, yeah, that would've been my next guess... :rolleyes: I think a double transliteration is beyond me, sadly; my Cyrillic>Latin transcription came out as:

"Am meshakh ’lesh shiakh aivikhesh taabatakh rakhal shéakh?"

With each word reversed, that's:

"Ma khashem shel' khaish shekhivia khatabaat lakhar khaesh?"

Which Google will cheerfully transcribe into Hebrew letters as:

"מ כאשם של כאיש שהכיביה כאתבעת לכער כאיש"

And then even more cheerfully translate as:

"M as the fault of a man who was extinguished as a suitor for a man."

So unless you were talking about how Frodo's budding romance with Sam was cut off by his departure for the Havens... ;)

hS

Galadriel55 04-28-2020 09:45 AM

That's why I said the clue is pretty much impossible. Though - there is at least one Downer who could have solved it, without much translate use, given enough effort.

מה השם של האיש שהביא הטבעת להר האש
= what is the name of the guy who brought the Ring to the Mountain of Fire. You can check it against google translate, see if I've remembered how to spell these words correctly.

Anyways, that was for fun and as an illustration for why clues should be aimed at the average Downer. :)

Pervinca Took 04-28-2020 11:23 AM

Totally above my head - but once solved, very close to my heart. ;)

Good password! Hope you enjoy this one:

1. Battles are now mostly internal. Except for this one.
2. It reeled, it belched; the Ring was squelched.
3. Describes the Third Age, by the final sentence.
4. As foretold, the crownless becomes it. But add a sleepy town and end up here? Sounds like it!
5. Wrecker, starting on igloo and/or its library? All very confused. Mentioned in lineage, to stake a claim.
6. He goes where they might call him this? Perhaps unlikely, perhaps not – but an apocryphal letter will thus address his namesake.

Huinesoron 04-28-2020 11:37 AM

#6: "Apocryphal letter" immediately brings the King's Letter to mind (well, I read it only a couple of weeks ago). All three of the non-Sam hobbits of the Fellowship have namesakes therein, but the only one who's going somewhere notable is Frodo, whose namesake is addressed as IORHAEL. (And indeed, he could well be expected to use the Sindarin form in Aman.)

Also, thinking about it, "or hail" is a decent calque on "might call him".

hS

Pervinca Took 04-28-2020 02:22 PM

1. Battles are now mostly internal. Except for this one.
2. It reeled, it belched; the Ring was squelched.
3. Describes the Third Age, by the final sentence.
4. As foretold, the crownless becomes it. But add a sleepy town and end up here? Sounds like it!
5. Wrecker, starting on igloo and/or its library? All very confused. Mentioned in lineage, to stake a claim.
IORHAEL: He goes where they might call him this? Perhaps unlikely, perhaps not – but an apocryphal letter will thus address his namesake.

Indeed. Although the remaining three go to Gondor and/or Rohan again in their lifetimes, (two of them to see out their final days), and probably get called Holdwine, Ernil i Pheriannath, etc. ;)

'Perhaps unlikely, perhaps not' is because I wasn't sure if in Aman they would be more likely to speak Quenya and call him Daur.

I wonder how they knew the meanings and hence translations of Frodo and Samwise's names on the Field of Cormallen? Through Aragorn and Legolas, I suppose. They are hailed as 'Daur' and 'Berhael,' but not as their Sindarin names. Or hang on, is Berhael Sindarin? So why a Quenya name and a Sindarin one in the same sentence?

Huinesoron, I never thought of 'or hail!'

Huinesoron 04-28-2020 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 722787)
I wonder how they knew the meanings and hence translations of Frodo and Samwise's names on the Field of Cormallen? Through Aragorn and Legolas, I suppose. They are hailed as 'Daur' and 'Berhael,' but not as their Sindarin names. Or hang on, is Berhael Sindarin? So why a Quenya name and a Sindarin one in the same sentence?

I don't think Daur is Quenya, actually. I'm pretty sure Q. doesn't use an initial D - come to think of it, since there are two of them in my name, I know for sure that it doesn't even have a letter D; 'ando' is read as ND (and definitely won't start a word). So they're both Sindarin ('Berhael' is just Perhael with a mutated first letter; Quenya doesn't use B either!)

To make a wild guess: were there Rohirrim at Cormallen? If so, they probably understood the old Hobbitish names, because they're closely related to their own language. 'Sam-wise' might even be a current idiom in Rohan!

(Regardless of which, if Frodo landed on Tol Eressea, they probably did speak Sindarin; the returning Noldor had all adopted it in Beleriand, and the Sindar were a huge proportion of the returning population.)

hS

Pervinca Took 04-28-2020 04:01 PM

Of course - the Rohirrim! Nice one.

What does Huinesoron mean, by the way?

Huinesoron 04-28-2020 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 722791)
Of course - the Rohirrim! Nice one.

What does Huinesoron mean, by the way?

"Shadow/gloom" + "Eagle", usually glossed "Eagleshade" these days, both in Quenya. I pulled both words straight from the Silm index in late 2002 (for an email address to discuss the Two Towers movie with, actually), and it's kind of stuck.

(I promise I'll get back on password-topic tomorrow...!)

hS <-- comes from the relative sizes of the tengwar

Pervinca Took 04-29-2020 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huinesoron (Post 722794)
"Shadow/gloom" + "Eagle", usually glossed "Eagleshade" these days, both in Quenya. I pulled both words straight from the Silm index in late 2002 (for an email address to discuss the Two Towers movie with, actually), and it's kind of stuck.

(I promise I'll get back on password-topic tomorrow...!)

hS <-- comes from the relative sizes of the tengwar

Do you mean h is smaller than s in Tengwar?

I looked up DAUR and you're right. I think it has a Quenya cognate, but I guess mist Sindarin words do? And it seems to mean wise, not old.

...

From Tolkien Gateway:

'When analyzing the song of praise, Tolkien derived*Daur*from*dāra*"wise" with a*Quenya*form*tāra. This replaces an earlier version from*ndāra*with*Quenya*nāra. He also queried the possibility of*daur*coming from lenition of base*t.[8]'

Huinesoron 04-29-2020 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 722800)
Do you mean h is smaller than s in Tengwar?

Officially no, but when I used Tengwar for a signature I put the hyarmen inside the hoop of the silma (which I think was upside-down anyway).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 722800)
I looked up DAUR and you're right. I think it has a Quenya cognate, but I guess mist Sindarin words do? And it seems to mean wise, not old.

...

From Tolkien Gateway:

'When analyzing the song of praise, Tolkien derived*Daur*from*dāra*"wise" with a*Quenya*form*tāra. This replaces an earlier version from*ndāra*with*Quenya*nāra. He also queried the possibility of*daur*coming from lenition of base*t.[8]'

Well, the Gateway derives 'Frodo' from 'fród = wise by experience', so old-wise is a fuller translation, I guess? But for an off-the-cuff rendering, just 'wise' isn't too bad.

Oh, right, password! For #4, it looks like the first element is 'king'; for a placename with a 'sleepy town' element, how about KING'S NORBURY?

I love the feel of these clues - #3 especially - even if I don't have any thoughts on them as yet. :)

hS

Urwen 04-29-2020 04:13 AM

5 is IGLOO RUINER which for some reason reminds me of Glirhuin....Mafia4ever

Pervinca Took 04-29-2020 05:11 AM

King's Norbury is right ... sorry, have a work Zoom about to start, so will put it in later.

Glirhuin the Igloo Ruiner is an interesting image! Not the answer, though - sorry.

Pervinca Took 04-29-2020 05:58 AM

1. Battles are now mostly internal. Except for this one.
2. It reeled, it belched; the Ring was squelched.
3. Describes the Third Age, by the final sentence.
KINGS' NORBURY: As foretold, the crownless becomes it. But add a sleepy town and end up here? Sounds like it!
5. Wrecker, starting on igloo and/or its library? All very confused. Mentioned in lineage, to stake a claim.
IORHAEL: He goes where they might call him this? Perhaps unlikely, perhaps not – but an apocryphal letter will thus address his namesake.

Yes!

KING + SNOR(E)BURY (not AFAIAA also a soporific cousin of the strawberry, although who knows? Strider did say there was berry, root and herb in the wild!)

(I am now picturing temporary Noldorin igloos on the Helcaraxe ....)

Urwen 04-29-2020 06:49 AM

3. Homely? As in 'I am home'. Or Shire, for the same reason?

Pervinca Took 04-29-2020 06:59 AM

Nice ideas, but was the Third Age homely?

The key is 'by the final sentence.'

Urwen 04-29-2020 07:11 AM

And final sentence of the third age is 'I am home'. or 'Well, I am home." Check Lotr if you don't believe me.

Pervinca Took 04-29-2020 07:52 AM

What describes? An adjective, often.

I didn't mean it's in the final sentence.

I mean that by the final sentence, this word describes the Third Age.

...

The hints I gave in my last clue, and the clue itself, say by, not in.

Urwen 04-29-2020 08:28 AM

And what is described by the last sentence? The Shire.

Huinesoron 04-29-2020 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen (Post 722811)
And final sentence of the third age is 'I am home'. or 'Well, I am home." Check Lotr if you don't believe me.

FYI, the English text reads "Well, I'm back." Same meaning, obviously. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 722815)
What describes? An adjective, often.

I didn't mean it's in the final sentence.

I mean that by the final sentence, this word describes the Third Age.

...

The hint I gave in my last clue, and the clue itself, say by, not in.

Um... OVER? PAST? I'm having trouble spotting a cryptic clue - 'by' could indicate 'next to', but I don't see a word like either of these anywhere near the last sentence.

Come to think, the Third Age was years past by the end of the book. ... HISTORY?

hS

Huinesoron 04-29-2020 08:37 AM

... wait. Hang on.

#1: BYWATER, the last battle of the War of the Ring, and specifically named for a place outside.

#2: ORODRUIN, because... it did. That's just a poetic(?) description of an eruption.

#3: OVER, because it begins with O, which means I can propose:

Password: BOOK VI, where all these things are found.

(The only reason I'm doubtful is that 'Iorhael' itself isn't in Book 6 at all... but I'll try it anyway.)

hS

Pervinca Took 04-29-2020 09:43 AM

BYWATER: Battles are now mostly internal. Except for this one.
ORODRUIN: It reeled, it belched; the Ring was squelched.
OVER: Describes the Third Age, by the final sentence.
KINGS' NORBURY: As foretold, the crownless becomes it. But add a sleepy town and end up here? Sounds like it!

V: Wrecker, starting on igloo and/or its library? All very confused. Mentioned in lineage, to stake a claim.
IORHAEL: He goes where they might call him this? Perhaps unlikely, perhaps not – but an apocryphal letter will thus address his namesake.

Frodo is in Book VI, and so is his 'going' to the 'where' of the clue. That'll do, surely? I think I've probably used Incanus or Envinyatar, etc, in books where they weren't specifically called that or said to be sometimes called that.

'By' is 'by the time of the last sentence,' just as 'by November' is 'by the time it's November.'

Tolkien actually says Orodruin reeled. And belched. It's a very rude volcano!

And Norbury of the Kings is mentioned to Barliman by Gandalf on the way home, (well, home for the hobbits). I used the slightly different form because I needed the K. Originally, though, the answer was just KING and the clue only consisted of the first sentence - which still worked for Book VI.

I thought Orodruin would be the first clue to fall!

One to go!

Huinesoron 04-29-2020 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 722819)
Frodo is in Book VI. That'll do, surely? I think I've probably used Incanus or Envinyatar, etc, in books where they weren't specifically called that or said to be sometimes called that.

It'll do just fine - I was just nursing a fear that the whole thing might be based on the Epilogue somehow! :)

hS

Urwen 04-29-2020 09:52 AM

The last one is Valandil (Vandal+I+L)

Pervinca Took 04-29-2020 10:07 AM

BYWATER: Battles are now mostly internal. Except for this one.
ORODRUIN: It reeled, it belched; the Ring was squelched.
OVER: Describes the Third Age, by the final sentence.
KINGS' NORBURY: As foretold, the crownless becomes it. But add a sleepy town and end up here? Sounds like it!

VALANDIL: Wrecker, starting on igloo and/or its library? All very confused. Mentioned in lineage, to stake a claim.
IORHAEL: He goes where they might call him this? Perhaps unlikely, perhaps not – but an apocryphal letter will thus address his namesake.

And the where of the clue is where he'd be maybe called Iorhael, so the he is Frodo anyway. ;)

Valandil indeed - taking IL initials either from 'its' and 'library' or from 'igloo' and 'library.' Plus VANDAL, of course.

I confess that it's the memory of Andrew Seear's Faramir saying 'Elessar of the line of Valandil' in the crowning scene that led me to choose the answer for V. ;)

Well done, both, and over to Huinesoron.

You said you liked these clues, hS. Would it be retchingly soppy to say that it's because I love Frodo so much that the clues largely based around his swan-song were made with especial care and affection? :)

Urwen 04-29-2020 10:24 AM

You say so, yet you find my love for Maeglin misplaced.

Huinesoron 04-29-2020 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen (Post 722827)
You say so, yet you find my love for Maeglin misplaced.

Well, the thing about Frodo is that it's not necessary to concoct wild theories to make him not a villain... ;)

Um, I had an idea for a password, I'm sure I did. Now I just have to remember it...

hS

Pervinca Took 04-29-2020 01:59 PM

I don't judge you for loving Maeglin.

I wonder if anyone's ever had a crush on Gollum? That WOULD be a bit worrying!

Urwen 04-29-2020 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 722835)
I don't judge you for loving Maeglin.

I wonder if anyone's ever had a crush on Gollum? That WOULD be a bit worrying!


Well....


https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca88...B0L_4sNCoNzC2c

Would it really?

Pervinca Took 04-29-2020 02:38 PM

Once he became Gollum, yes. Maybe not while he was still Pre-Ring Smeagol.

Galadriel55 04-29-2020 05:36 PM

One of my friends really likes Gollum, but only as a character. For his complexity, not his charming manners. ;) She keeps asking me what I think of him, but TBH I appreciated the complexity but was never a fan of the Gollum chapters...

Pervinca Took 04-29-2020 06:03 PM

I think Gollum is a brilliant character. Probably my second favourite, after Frodo, but definitely NOT in a crush kind of way! :eek

I greatly admire them both as literary creations. I think Frodo is complex too, in a different way, and certainly a lot deeper than Gollum.

Their struggles with the Ring - both of them - are compelling - and Frodo's nobility of character is perhaps at its most beautiful when he is dealing with Gollum. As is his wisdom.

Galadriel55 04-29-2020 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 722847)
Their struggles with the Ring - both of them - are compelling - and Frodo's nobility of character is perhaps at its most beautiful when he is dealing with Gollum. As is his wisdom.

Oh absolutely! Though my favourite is his dealing with Saruman. ;)

Pervinca Took 04-30-2020 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galadriel55 (Post 722848)
Oh absolutely! Though my favourite is his dealing with Saruman. ;)

Oooohh, yes. Good choice. Frodo is so broken by then. Some think he spares Saruman partly out of cruelty, but I don't ... (well, perhaps just a touch - it is more successful revenge than death - but then is it? - Saruman's death is terrible, and removes all chance of redemption, reducing him to a maimed and powerless spirit). I just don't think Frodo feels he can justify killing Saruman, because the Ring took him too, (finally), and his own experience taught him definitively that dealing out death in 'justice' was not a thing to be done 'eagerly,' (Gandalf's words, more or less).

Huey, regarding OVER, the Third Age is only JUST over by 'I am back.' Not years over ... that would be the version with the Epilogue in - not the Book VI in the published LOTR. ;)

Also, I wasn't particularly thinking of Bywater being an outdoor place. Just that the major 'physical, external' battles were over bar that one, and people were mostly battling with grief and loss if they had lost loved ones in the war, and with what would now be called PTSD.

Huinesoron 04-30-2020 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 722851)
Huey, regarding OVER, the Third Age is only JUST over by 'I am back.' Not years over ... that would be the version with the Epilogue in - not the Book VI in the published LOTR. ;)

... did the Third Age seriously not end for two years after the Ring was destroyed? I will never understand Gondorian timekeeping. :rolleyes: And the Second continues blithely on through the literal changing of the world, but ends as soon as some elf dude gets squished. Why do I suspect that if we had more detailed accounts, we'd find the First Age 'officially' ended two years before Beleriand sank, because Finarfin had a cup of tea...?

Anyway! I've gone a bit strange for this password; not sure whether it'll be easier or harder as a result.

1. - What they sang about (in the vernacular)
2. - Many warriors had this; 3/4 is what there are 3/4 of
3. - What manner of hell is this?
4. - A lineage stretching from Tirion to Minas Tirith.
5. - What we speak, and what by
6. - Gondorians do not speak of its breath.
7. - Everyone has one (or two... or more!)
8. - What the first children saw by
9. - Between two horses, but write otherwise and it's golden treasure
10. - Sauron has one of these; unlike most, he can send his away
11. - By another title, Sauron has six of these
12. - A heart, a rise, a miner's prize
13. - Two once died, to be replaced by two and two again
14. - Where the stars are strange

hS


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