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Pervinca Took 03-12-2019 11:47 AM

???S???: He’s here (or in Norway) because of what an armoured heroine might need.
TOM: He’s three quarters of a particle.
???R???: Confused lad with a messy barnet, he is – crazy!
BILL: Invoice him.
FRODO: Even when a bit muddled, he knows where his towel is.
???E???: Formerly supple, before he knotted up.
???R???: Woven or spun, he stands constant.

Password: Correct.
Theme: Wrong.

1. Nowt to do with Scyld, and nothing specifically to do with Eowyn.

Pay no attention to the location of the question marks. The letter could occur anywhere in the answer. (I may be more specific about this later - let's see how it goes first).

P.S. I have been slightly naughty with number 1.

Huinesoron 03-15-2019 06:47 AM

A vague thought on HARRY for #3, since 'barnet' seems to be something to do with hair, and it's a very close word. Also there's one in Bree. ;)

Or maybe BARLIMAN, which includes half of 'barnet' and the word 'man' (= lad), along with a soundalike for 'lie' which could fit either confused or crazy.

I dunno, nothing's really jumping out for any of them. :-/

hS

Pervinca Took 03-15-2019 07:32 AM

You're right about 'barnet' meaning 'hair,' but none of the remaining answers are hobbitish or Breeish. EDIT: SORRY - ONE OF THE REMAINING ANSWERS IS A HOBBIT. BUT ONLY ONE.

Can you work out what the theme is? That's the key to solving the rest of the clues. You kind of touched on it in your first post after I posted this password.

P.S. You missed a password cast into rhyming couplets, about pubs and inns of Middle-earth and Inklings - how very dare you have a life at weekends? ;) (Yes, I'm joking).

P.P.S. As it might not be well known outside Britain (or even southern England), barnet is short for Barnet Fair, and hence rhyming slang for 'hair.' (Barnet is a Hertfordshire town long since absorbed into the outmost northern part of Greater London; traditionally a market town (hence 'Fair,' like Scarborough Fair)). It's also a London Borough.

Pervinca Took 03-15-2019 08:21 AM

To make it easier:

?????????S: He’s here (or in Norway) because of what an armoured heroine might need.
TOM: He’s three quarters of a particle.
??R????: Confused lad with a messy barnet, he is – crazy!
BILL: Invoice him.
FRODO: Even when a bit muddled, he knows where his towel is.
E????????: Formerly supple, before he knotted up.
??R????: Woven or spun, he stands constant.

Whoops! Sorry. ONE of the remaining answers IS a hobbit name.

Huinesoron 03-15-2019 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 713925)
Can you work out what the theme is? That's the key to solving the rest of the clues. You kind of touched on it in your first post after I posted this password.

Is it... are they all names which have applied to multiple characters? Frodo Took from the drafts (or Frodo Gardner, which is probably more reasonable), and of course the Bills and Toms... but Strider? Oh, wait, someone named their pony Strider! [Checks] Right, it was Frodo, the cheeky blighter.

In that case, 1 could be LEGOLAS (of Gondolin), which does include 'las(s)', and Lego is at least Scandinavian. But I'm less and less confident with each word I write.

Aha! The final answer could be VORONWE, a literal anagram of 'woven or', and meaning 'the Faithful'. Mardil the Steward took it as an aftername, and of course the original is Tuor's guide.

hS

Pervinca Took 03-15-2019 09:58 AM

?????????S: He’s here (or in Norway) because of what an armoured heroine might need.
TOM: He’s three quarters of a particle.
??R????: Confused lad with a messy barnet, he is – crazy!
BILL: Invoice him.
FRODO: Even when a bit muddled, he knows where his towel is.
E????????: Formerly supple, before he knotted up.
VORONWE: Woven or spun, he stands constant.

THEME: NAMES GIVEN TO MORE THAN ONE CHARACTER.

I had forgotten about Frodo Took! And he was a recent password of mine, too. I was thinking of Frodo Baggins and Frodo Gamgee (soon Gardner), but there was Pippin's prototype, too.

BILL: Huggins, Ferny, Pony. (There's Bill Stickers too, thinking about it, although not in one of the books!)

TOM: Trollsong Tom (with his big boots on), mutton-eating Troll in 'The Hobbit,' Tom Bombadil. Is there one in Smith of Wooton Major as well? And a few more if you count the Tolmans (Tom Cotton, father of Rose, and Tom, her youngest son).

P.S. No to Legolas.

Huinesoron 03-15-2019 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 713928)
TOM: Trollsong Tom (with his big boots on), mutton-eating Troll in 'The Hobbit,' Tom Bombadil. Is there one in Smith of Wooton Major as well? And a few more if you count the Tolmans (Tom Cotton, father of Rose, and Tom, her youngest son).

Yep, Tomling, Smith's grandson. And Bilbo uses 'Tomnoddy' at the spiders, for that matter. I diiiiid consider making a password where all the answers were Tom, but it would have been kind of obvious after the first two. ^_~

For #3, how about FARAMIR? There's a few of them, and its an anagram of 'A fair Mr.'.

hS

Pervinca Took 03-15-2019 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huinesoron (Post 713929)
For #3, how about FARAMIR? There's a few of them, and its an anagram of 'A fair Mr.'.

What a great and apt anagram ! For both meanings of 'fair.'

You do realise that many a fair lady has fainted at the sound of Andrew Seear playing that very character?

All of which does not alter the fact that it is WRONG! :D And 'a fair Mr' does NOT mean 'messy hair,' whether they affect this to add to their beauty or not.

Lots of Faramirs? Is there another besides Denethor's and Pippin's sons? Maybe, if you look through lists of stewards and things.

I WILL, however, give you a hint in return for that anagram, and tell you that the Norwegian reference in clue 1 is a literary one.

Huinesoron 03-15-2019 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 713930)
All of which does not alter the fact that it is WRONG! :D And 'a fair Mr' dies NOT mean 'messy hair,' whether they affect this to add to their beauty or not.

I was going with Mr for 'lad', and fair as the other half of 'barnet fair'. The A was because... well... Faramir has another A. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 713930)
Lots of Faramirs? Is there another besides Denethor's and Pippin' sons? Maybe, if you look through lists of stewards and things.

Yep! Faramir's the kid who led to the first demise of the Line of Kings in Gondor: as second son of King Ondoher, he was meant to stay home for the battle, but snuck along and died along with his father and brother. Steward Pelendur ultimately passed the crown to his distant cousin, General Earnil.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 713930)
I WILL, however, give you a hint in return for that anagram, and tell you that the Norwegian reference in clue 1 is a literary one.

Um. Well, the phrase 'Norwegian Wood' jumps to mind, but I think that's a song. (Apparently it's a book as well, but more famously a song.) Hmm.

hS

Galadriel55 03-15-2019 04:51 PM

I keep coming back to Barahir because it has HAIR, but I don't know what to make of the first part.

Pervinca Took 03-15-2019 05:09 PM

Not Barahir. A little less well-known, I think.

Huinesoron 03-18-2019 04:10 AM

I had to brute-force this by finding every 9-letter word starting with E and eliminating the unsuitable ones, but I finally found one that meets the theme. Then, to prove it, I had to try and find a synonym for 'supple' in it... and then figure out what the remaining letters gave.

ECTHELION was ONCE LITHE, though whether in Gondolin or Minas Tirith I couldn't say.

~

Of the remaining two, you've told us that one is a hobbit name, but you didn't seem to immediately remember it as such. That suggests that the other use of the name is non-Hobbittish, which in turn suggests either one of Sam's kids, or someone from the Took line (who all have weird names).

...

'GOLDILOCKS' is a direct translation of 'Glorfindel', and you did say you'd been a bit cheeky...

...

...

... oh, please no.

#1 looks likely to be 'FORTINBRAS', the name of two Thains of the Shire, and of Shakespeare's crown prince of Norway (also his dead dad). I have no idea whether Eowyn Fought In Bras, but I'm sure she would have appreciated the option.

hS

Pervinca Took 03-18-2019 05:07 AM

FORTINBRAS: He’s here (or in Norway) because of what an armoured heroine might need.
TOM: He’s three quarters of a particle.
??R????: Confused lad with a messy barnet, he is – crazy!
BILL: Invoice him.
FRODO: Even when a bit muddled, he knows where his towel is.
ECTHELION: Formerly supple, before he knotted up.
VORONWE: Woven or spun, he stands constant.

THEME: NAMES GIVEN TO MORE THAN ONE CHARACTER.

ONCE LITHE = ECTHELION, indeed.

FORTINBRAS is correct, and you are right that I primarily think of him as the third avenger of 'Hamlet,' whose words finish the play, and perhaps momentarily forgot that he's two hobbits as well, rather than a steward or something.

However, it's not 'fought in bras.' Which is not a grammatically correct answer to the clue. ;) And hardly does full justice to the 'armour' element. And I would have added something like 'sounds like' if the spelling was wrong, wouldn't I?

'Because' gives you FOR.

'Armoured heroine' suggests TIN BRAS.

Which an *armoured* heroine might need.

And that is why the letters appear ('why he's here').

(I added the Norway reference because he's not a well-known Thain and I thought it might be a bit difficult without it).

Still, it's rather wonderful that 'fought in bras' is a homophone of 'for tin bras,' which I wouldn't have known if you HAD got the elements right.

You still have the barnet one to guess, don't forget! Chop chop! :D

Huinesoron 03-18-2019 06:23 AM

I seem to be doing really well at getting answers for the wrong reasons this time. ^_^ There was Frodo Prefect, and now the Tin Bra... Faramir was wrong, though, I suppose.

ANYWAY. Did you know there are 59 pages on the Encyclopedia of Arda that fit the ??R???? pattern? Because there are. They include such delights as 'Morgoth' (certainly crazy, but I don't think being More Goth counts as a messy barnet), Saruman (preeeeetty sure there's only one of him), and... Turnips. ^_^

Hmm. HERUMOR is a possibility; it has the 'hair' sound, and is two people, in the Second and Fourth Ages. (I once saw a theory that the cult leader from the New Shadow is the same person as the Numenorean, and that both are synonymous with the Mouth of Sauron... nice idea, but not really supported.) But I can't make the rest of the clue fit.

There are two Baranors, but I can't fit him to the clue. Tolkien really liked reusing names, didn't he? That, or (considering 'Gorthol' as a name of Turin, meaning I guess 'nastyhat') giving people many names.

IMRAHIL has definite possibilities. It's almost HIM HAIR, except that one of the H has become an L. Though I can't actually find an earlier one? But I wouldn't be surprised if the royal line included multiple iterations.

I really want to do something with 'ImrazŰr', because, y'know, razor... but no.

'Marhari' is maar haary, but no. ^_~

And... that exhausts my list, actually. Hmm. I wonder what ADRAHIL of Dol Amroth did wrong, that EofA doesn't have him (Tolkien Gateway does). Because his name is actually HAIR + LAD, and there were two of him a thousand years apart. So I think he's probably the strongest answer.

(Except for Marhari, all these names are Numenorean-Gondorian. Gondorians like that third-letter R sound, I guess?)

hS

Pervinca Took 03-18-2019 06:54 AM

FORTINBRAS: He’s here (or in Norway) because of what an armoured heroine might need.
TOM: He’s three quarters of a particle.
ADRAHIL: Confused lad with a messy barnet, he is – crazy!
BILL: Invoice him.
FRODO: Even when a bit muddled, he knows where his towel is.
ECTHELION: Formerly supple, before he knotted up.
VORONWE: Woven or spun, he stands constant.

THEME: NAMES GIVEN TO MORE THAN ONE CHARACTER

ADRAHIL it is! Hair + lad. (Much as one might wish it had been his cousin, 'Turnips,' from the rich root vegetable province of Lossarnach).

I confess that I too googled for multiple-character names to find the last few names, when preparing the puzzle.

Faramir was wrong - not sure if you mean one of your guesses was wrong, or Faramir misread the extent of his missus's renunciation of shieldmaidenhood and bought the wrong lingerie ....

Well, enough of that (for now).

And now: over to you! Well done.

P.S. Imrazor indeed! (Chortles).

Huinesoron 03-18-2019 08:38 AM

Quote:

Eowyn, Lady of Ithilien, White Lady of Rohan, looked up at her husband. "And what might this be?"

Faramir glanced down at the CormarŽ gift he had purchased for his wife. "A new thing out of Harad," he said. "They name it 'corset'; it is like to your binding-cloths, but perhaps more shapely."

Eowyn held the corset up before the sunlight, considering its lines. "It has the look of armour about it," she mused, "yet how could I fight when so constrained? Unable to bend, barely able to breathe, I should swiftly fall. No," she decided, lowering it onto her lap and meeting her husband's gaze with no hint of apology, "this may serve for the courtiers of Mundburg, but not for a Shieldmaiden of Ithilien."

"Ah." A smile fleeted across Faramir's face as the prince stepped forth to embrace his wife. "You misunderstand, my lady," he murmured, his breath warm upon her ear. "This gift... it is not for the battlefield, nor for the training ground." The smile returned, touched with mischief. "I believe it is intended to remain entirely within our own chambers."

"Ah." A flush of rose coloured Eowyn's cheeks, their fires lighting a sparkle in her eyes. "Ah."
(Sorry, sorry, but you should know better than to drop plot suggestions like that. :D)

Moving on!

1. The rider is but half what he is named; he must go south with the company.
2. Twice following, so i'th'name of laughter is the fiery maid transformed.
3. Sister to one of our own, she comes from the shore: send her back.
4. Enraged with the staff or wrathful and strange? Either way, two must fall before the lord in the north.
5. Low riddling is yet above the half-wise.
6. In water he found patience, yet fire claimed his fire in the end.
7. A legendary maid at the window tumbles back, and the missing queen appears.

hS

Pervinca Took 03-18-2019 09:06 AM

:D

Who wrote that? Or were you quoting from your own work? ;)

Could 5 be OLIPHAUNT, because oliphaunts are a lot taller than Sam?

Huinesoron 03-18-2019 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 713963)
:D

Who wrote that? Or were you quoting from your own work? ;)

Worse - I'm afraid I hammered that out in response to your prompting. You are directly responsible for Eowyn's corsetry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 713963)
Could 5 be OLIPHAUNT, because oliphaunts are a lot taller than Sam?

It is not... but you're right about Sam being the half-wise.

hS

Pervinca Took 03-18-2019 09:12 AM

Fish, then, because Sam hadn't guessed what Smeagol wanted?

Pervinca Took 03-18-2019 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huinesoron (Post 713964)
Worse - I'm afraid I hammered that out in response to your prompting. You are directly responsible for Eowyn's corsetry.

hS

One would expect no less from a Took girl. Best dressmakers in the Shire!

Huinesoron 03-18-2019 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 713966)
One would expect no less from a Took girl. Best dressmakers in the Shire!

:D I did consider having it be Shire-inspired fashion... should've gone that way, clearly.

It's not a fissssh, precious.

hS

Pervinca Took 03-18-2019 09:26 AM

Are we talking about a gardening riddle ... a soil sieve?

Huinesoron 03-18-2019 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 713968)
Are we talking about a gardening riddle ... a soil sieve?

That's a really clever answer! No. :D

All of the clues contain some combination of cryptic and straight components. In the case of #5, I think the split is fairly even.

hS

Pervinca Took 03-18-2019 09:53 AM

Banazir has most of 'nadir' in it, for *a* low (noun). Erm ... and a bit of 'above.'

(Lack of capitals reflects how much hope I have that this is right!)

Huinesoron 03-18-2019 10:07 AM

I'm afraid not.

'Cryptic' is probably the wrong word to use - at least a few of the clues simply point at the meaning of a name (in English or otherwise), and then tell you something about the person who bears it. (So 'Lothlorien's lady with a radiant garland' would have the 'cryptic' part as 'radiant garland', because that's what Galadriel means.)

hS

Pervinca Took 03-18-2019 10:43 AM

OK ...

I thought 1 seemed to point at Halbarad, but apparently that means 'tall tower.'

GANDALF is the White Rider, and goes south. But although his name means 'Elf of the wand,' only the 'wand' part of that is true.

Huinesoron 03-18-2019 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 713972)
OK ...

I thought 1 seemed to point at Halbarad, but apparently that means 'tall tower.'

GANDALF is the White Rider, and goes south. But although his name means 'Elf of the wand,' only the 'wand' part of that is true.

Neither of your answers are right, but one of them has found the right company.

hS

Pervinca Took 03-18-2019 02:34 PM

Then I think it's the Grey Company, because they ride and the Fellowship don't (at least, not during the time they all travel together).

And I think it's either Elladan or Elrohir, as they are half-elven. Or because they are only half- half-elven, or 3/4 elven, due to Celebrian.

I'll guess ELROHIR, (elf rider).

The 'rider' half of his name is true, but the other half isn't ... or is only half true.

Huinesoron 03-19-2019 03:22 AM

Quote:

1. ELROHIR - The rider is but half what he is named; he must go south with the company.
2. Twice following, so i'th'name of laughter is the fiery maid transformed.
3. Sister to one of our own, she comes from the shore: send her back.
4. Enraged with the staff or wrathful and strange? Either way, two must fall before the lord in the north.
5. Low riddling is yet above the half-wise.
6. In water he found patience, yet fire claimed his fire in the end.
7. A legendary maid at the window tumbles back, and the missing queen appears.
Elrohir is correct, for exactly the reasons stated!

hS

Pervinca Took 03-19-2019 04:04 AM

Just a guess at his twin, Elladan, for the password?

Actually, have I got that right? Were he and Elrohir twins, and Elrond and Elros too? And Elwing's two brothers?

Huinesoron 03-19-2019 04:24 AM

Quote:

1. ELROHIR - The rider is but half what he is named; he must go south with the company.
2. L Twice following, so i'th'name of laughter is the fiery maid transformed.
3. L Sister to one of our own, she comes from the shore: send her back.
4. A Enraged with the staff or wrathful and strange? Either way, two must fall before the lord in the north.
5. D Low riddling is yet above the half-wise.
6. A In water he found patience, yet fire claimed his fire in the end.
7. N A legendary maid at the window tumbles back, and the missing queen appears.
Well, that's certainly going to make things easier. ^_^ And yes, it appears that all the Elven male descendents of Dior were twins.

hS

Pervinca Took 03-19-2019 05:46 AM

Maybe that came from Luthien? It was said that her line would never fail, (maybe because she was half Maia). Or from the strong combined strain of Elf, Man and Maia in Dior.

Pervinca Took 03-19-2019 02:48 PM

2. Well, LALAITH has 'ith' and 'la' twice (but how is that following?) but it doesn't transform and she isn't fiery! Although her name does mean 'laughter.'

3. Sister to one of our own, she comes from the shore: send her back.

There aren't that many sisters in Tolkien's books. Luthien isn't one.

Lalwen/Lalwende and Lothiriel are. And Lalaith.

I feel that the answer needs to be the name of a sister of a Downer's name.

But perhaps it runs backwards, and ends with L. None of the sisters beginning with L seems to fit.

Huinesoron 03-19-2019 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 714007)
2. Well, LALAITH has 'ith' and 'la' twice (but how is that following?) but it doesn't transform and she isn't fiery! Although her name does mean 'laughter.'

Quote:

1. ELROHIR - The rider is but half what he is named; he must go south with the company.
2. LALAITH - Twice following, so i'th'name of laughter is the fiery maid transformed.
3. L Sister to one of our own, she comes from the shore: send her back.
4. A Enraged with the staff or wrathful and strange? Either way, two must fall before the lord in the north.
5. D Low riddling is yet above the half-wise.
6. A In water he found patience, yet fire claimed his fire in the end.
7. N A legendary maid at the window tumbles back, and the missing queen appears.
Correct! But she's not just following: she's twice [a note to] follow, so. ^_~ Her original name was Urwen, which means 'fiery maiden'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 714007)
3. Sister to one of our own, she comes from the shore: send her back.

There aren't that many sisters in Tolkien's books. Luthien isn't one.

Lalwen/Lalwende and Lothiriel are. And Lalaith.

I feel that the answer needs to be the name of a sister of a Downer's name.

But perhaps it runs backwards, and ends with L. None of the sisters beginning with L seems to fit.

None of those names, but you're precisely right in both whose sister she is (though you could be even more precise), and that she ends with L (and therefore runs backwards).

hS

Pervinca Took 03-19-2019 03:07 PM

Ah, I didn't realise you were invoking Julie Andrews!

I honestly didn't know 'Urwen' meant 'fiery maiden' - is the transformation a reflection on a change to a very different name, then? Maybe she seemed fiery as a baby but transformed as a toddler and laughed, but bawled when she was a baby?

Why would they call a baby girl Urwen - have I forgotten something?

CLUE 3:

Galadriel has brothers - maybe one of them is a downer? She is from the shore (came to Middle-earth from Valinor) and we want the Valar to accept her back there? So a double meaning for 'send her back?'

Huinesoron 03-19-2019 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 714009)
Why would they call a baby girl Urwen - have I forgotten something?

I think it's a name used for Arien; they basically called her 'Sunshine'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 714009)
Galadriel has brothers - maybe one of them is a downer? She is from the shore (came to Middle-earth from Valinor) and we want the Valar to accept her back there? So a double meaning for 'send her back?'

Not Galadriel, I'm afraid. In this case 'comes from the shore' is a pointer at the meaning of her name.

hS

Pervinca Took 03-19-2019 03:33 PM

Only element I can find is FALAS/FALASSE (shore) or the root PHAL (foam).

Pervinca Took 03-20-2019 01:02 AM

4. ANGROD?

I was trying to get 'rod' to fit with 'angry.'

Pervinca Took 03-20-2019 01:10 AM

3. AILINEL apparently contains a word for 'lake.'

Huinesoron 03-20-2019 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took
Only element I can find is FALAS/FALASSE (shore) or the root PHAL (foam).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took
3. AILINEL apparently contains a word for 'lake.'

The name you're looking for is actually is in plain English - no Elvish required!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took
4. ANGROD?

I was trying to get 'rod' to fit with 'angry.'

Quote:

1. ELROHIR - The rider is but half what he is named; he must go south with the company.
2. LALAITH - Twice following, so i'th'name of laughter is the fiery maid transformed.
3. L Sister to one of our own, she comes from the shore: send her back.
4. ANGROD - Enraged with the staff or wrathful and strange? Either way, two must fall before the lord in the north.
5. D Low riddling is yet above the half-wise.
6. A In water he found patience, yet fire claimed his fire in the end.
7. N A legendary maid at the window tumbles back, and the missing queen appears.
Precisely; or you can get it from angry + odd. Either way you need to lose two letters ('two must fall') to get one of the Lords of Dorthonion.

hS


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