Tol-in-Gaurhoth LI: The Pain of Wargs - Page 4 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Legate of Amon Lanc · 10-09-2008, 12:41 AM

Okay, seems at least people are showing up. A short comment for now - Brinniel is making me uneasy even with her comments as short as they were till now; where I would like to see her participate more, she is making me suspect her merely by her un-conflict-y phrasing, which makes me think of her like that she's simply trying to say nothing that might catch the attention of the crowd. We'll see whether there's more grounds to suspect her later on; I am not sure if I'd vote for her right now, but perhaps if there's just a few posts more to consider and they'd be in a similar tone... Is this the old "Brinniel rule"? ("Brinniel is to be lynched early in the game, and she will be revealed innocent; however if she survives past Day 3, she's a Wolf.") As for Lommy and her possibly weird playing style, I can't say now that it's something which would make me suspect her, but at the same time I must of course reflect on that. Actually, I think that I have to yet form my opinion on that completely from scratch, as I honestly don't recall whether she'd act like that any time before. I think not, but then again, she did not act like that when she was an Ordo, but also not even when she was a Wolf, etc. So if there's something weird in her style, not sure how to classify it.

Oh, and

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwath

How likely is it that Eomer would have made one of our new players a werewolf? I'm not well enough acquainted with him to know whether or not I should consider it a likelihood/possibility.

That's pretty meta-game thinking, and I am not sure if it'd be adviseable to use it here as any evidence. He may also have picked his choices completely randomly. I really wouldn't bring this up here.

I'll be hopefully around in, say, four hours (if the school library is empty enough), and after that only shortly before the DL, as it seems. Till later...

Rune Son of Bjarne · 10-09-2008, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Again, I apologise for not voting. It was so early in the Day and I had not the slightest idea who to vote for...if I made a completely random vote, I was worried I might be partially responsible for getting an innocent lynched. It would've been just distracting for me to point a finger at someone when I didn't have anyone to point a finger at. While I'd like to be more active toDay, I can't make any promises. RL has been quite stressful, and when I signed up for this game I didn't know that this week would be so busy for me. However, I will definitely vote toDay and if I'm still alive Day 3, I know for sure I'll be able to participate more.

I have a problem with this part of Brinn's post, why is she appoligsing and not sticking to her guns instead? I mean it is one thing if you by accident do not vote and then the next day appoligise for it, but not voting was choise she made and if she thought it was the right thing to do yesterday then surely that has not changed?

Also I would like to make it clear that by not voting you are actually more responsible for getting an innocent lynched than if you made a seemingly random vote, because even though one feel like it is random it is always based on something. . . it might be tone in the post or some other small thing, but at least you tried to get a traitor and there is more chance of you saving an innocent by voting than by not voting.

All this being said; it is not that I am heavily suspecting Brinn, it is more that I think she acted wrongly.

Thinlómien · 10-09-2008, 02:02 AM

I don't really understand this "oh Lommy plays so differently" stuff. Quite a many people seem to think so, and as I do not think there are any grounds to think so, it strikes me as a little furry. This looks like the classic case of an innocent stating a weird opinion and the wolves following it because they don't realise it's a weird opinion because they are evil and thus their brain is not for real in the wolf-seeking mode or then they just one to get someone lynched, or something. That is to say that I wouldn't be surprised at all to find a wolf among those who talk about my changed playing style. In my opinion, I'm not playing any differently than before (unless you're all still talking about that accusation-throwing post, which was an intentional try at that kind of discussion-stirring) and just for your information, I'm not trying a new style to confuse you or to amuse myself. If there really is a difference in my playing style, it's totally unintentional. You may draw your conclusions from that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwath

In particular, I doubt that Nogrod is a traitor (I can't really say "wolf"), primarily because I see the willingness to take on the attention and suspicion that comes with being the deciding vote as a sign that he honestly found Sam as likely a candidate as anyone else.

Yes, I think the fact that he voted someone who had already been voted for looks rather innocent in this company... it was a more constructive thing to do than throwing in a new name would have been.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwath

The other possibility is that Brinniel is a traitor and Nogrod was forced to kill someone else in order to save her from the lynch. Otherwise, what would be the purpose of exposing onesself so early on, when it would be equally easy to hide in an obscure vote?

I think that sounds a little far-fetched, all in all. I wouldn't call Nogrod's actions "exposing oneself" nor would I give them such importance. I think he might have very well voted Samwise as a wolf even if Brinn wasn't his fellow.

edit: xed with Rooney

Legate of Amon Lanc · 10-09-2008, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I have a problem with this part of Brinn's post, why is she appoligsing and not sticking to her guns instead? I mean it is one thing if you by accident do not vote and then the next day appoligise for it, but not voting was choise she made and if she thought it was the right thing to do yesterday then surely that has not changed?

Also I would like to make it clear that by not voting you are actually more responsible for getting an innocent lynched than if you made a seemingly random vote, because even though one feel like it is random it is always based on something. . . it might be tone in the post or some other small thing, but at least you tried to get a traitor and there is more chance of you saving an innocent by voting than by not voting.

All this being said; it is not that I am heavily suspecting Brinn, it is more that I think she acted wrongly.

Hmm... actually, only one comment to this one post of Rune's, that's again what I said in the beginning, when I said he seems too reasonable... now he seems rather too... "just", or how to say that. I mean, he looks like the "wise judge" in this game, don't you think? I don't know what to make out of it, though, but it may be a pose - good for a Wolf, of course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I don't really understand this "oh Lommy plays so differently" stuff. Quite a many people seem to think so, and as I do not think there are any grounds to think so, it strikes me as a little furry. This looks like the classic case of an innocent stating a weird opinion and the wolves following it because they don't realise it's a weird opinion because they are evil and thus their brain is not for real in the wolf-seeking mode or then they just one to get someone lynched, or something. That is to say that I wouldn't be surprised at all to find a wolf among those who talk about my changed playing style. In my opinion, I'm not playing any differently than before (unless you're all still talking about that accusation-throwing post, which was an intentional try at that kind of discussion-stirring) and just for your information, I'm not trying a new style to confuse you or to amuse myself. If there really is a difference in my playing style, it's totally unintentional. You may draw your conclusions from that.

Okay, well, now that sounded like the "classic" Lommy

But honestly, I don't think it was that strong as for example Mith or Gwath now seemed to imply, but you were a little different than before. And that was not the first post only, but sometimes the others, too - a "funny" tone, in a way.

But, speaking of that - could it be that for example Gwath did jump on this train "Lommy seems to be referred to as weird, let's join the club, if there's a decision later to lynch her, I will merely stay within the crowd unnoticed"? His last post made me think about that a bit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lommy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwath

In particular, I doubt that Nogrod is a traitor (I can't really say "wolf"), primarily because I see the willingness to take on the attention and suspicion that comes with being the deciding vote as a sign that he honestly found Sam as likely a candidate as anyone else.

Yes, I think the fact that he voted someone who had already been voted for looks rather innocent in this company... it was a more constructive thing to do than throwing in a new name would have been.

Well, personally I don't think this is a reason for him to look innocent; now especially now we are talking about Nogrod - and he may as well have voted somebody who was already voted for rather than to cast a random vote, don't you think? This is not to say that I think it makes him guilty, but I am negating the idea of that this would be something which I would consider a plus for the thought of him being innocent.

Hmm, so what. Now this was only two new posts since my last one. I'm gonna stick around hopefully for yet about half an hour, but then will be back only at the DL - of course the main host of posts will come then... well, but what can I do. Anyway, I will have perhaps time to think, although only in my head, about whom I should vote for today. *looks around for a printer so that he can read the thread in the tram - or during the courses*

(no, of course, that would be silly!

)

Gaunt · 10-09-2008, 05:55 AM

Hello All,

Apologies for my lack of participation thus far - I have been very busy.

Anyway, I feel pity for Samwise Gamgee - it was almost as if just by making himself noticed he aroused suspicion (for two people at least!) rather than by actually saying anything that was genuinely suspicious. Being new to this lark I don't really have much of a suspicion about anyone at this stage, but I will read over the posts in more detail and try to come up with something.

Mithalwen · 10-09-2008, 06:10 AM

Well Gaunt it seems we have a set up unknown to any of us here so you may not be at a disadvantage!!!

That prophecy is creeping me out but having the kind of brain that finds word puzzles too fascinating I fear it may become a distraction. It is certainly unusual for someone to get lynched on 2 votes.

And Groin seems to have taken up my mantle of wanting Nogrod dead just to help clear the mind!!!

I have about another half hour now and plan to return till the end after work but I seem to be incubating a head cold so if I can't "head it off at the pass" I may have to curtail again... hope not but if my head is still cottonwooly I won't be much help.

Gaunt · 10-09-2008, 06:28 AM

Ok, I think I am starting to get the hang of this now.

As far as I can see suspicion is divided into two categories:

1. Suspicion based on heavy participation and aggressive or at least confident accuastions and public theorising (this type of suspicion seems to me what led to the lynching of Samwise and suspicions now being directed at Nogrod)

2. Suspicion based on light or non participation

Regarding the first theory, Nogrod is, it seems, the prime suspect at present. Now, judging by the other posts, he is behaving in the way he normally does when playing werewolf. However, i'm not convinced by Legate's theory below:

Although there's one thing, I don't belive Nog-wolf would pick Kitanna for a first kill. That'd really testify strongly against him in my eyes. He would pick some quiet one to "punish" him.

If he is a werewolf, wouldn't it make sense for him to kill someone who had been involved? That way he gets rid of a player who is more likely to successfully analyse his behaviour, and creates the impression of one of the quieter players lurking in the shadows, picking off the more talkative wargs. And by decrying their non-involvement and threatening to vote for them, he further polarises the group and hopes to direct suspicion on to those quieter wargs.

Even as I write this i'm not sure, but it does seem very convenient that his past reputation in the game clears him from suspicion in the eyes of some.

More thought is required.

As for the second theory, it doesn't give us much to go on - how are we too choose between the players who have not been heavily involved? The only way I can think is by anlysing the posts they have made explaining why they have not, or will not, be posting very much. But I for one would not be confident enough to make a prediction based on this

Rune Son of Bjarne · 10-09-2008, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Hmm... actually, only one comment to this one post of Rune's, that's again what I said in the beginning, when I said he seems too reasonable... now he seems rather too... "just", or how to say that. I mean, he looks like the "wise judge" in this game, don't you think? I don't know what to make out of it, though, but it may be a pose - good for a Wolf, of course.

That is because I am wise, my dear Legate.

Anyways you will be happy to know that you are probably the one I am most confused about, surely that must be some sort of ego-booster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Lommy One

That is to say that I wouldn't be surprised at all to find a wolf among those who talk about my changed playing style

Is this because you find it supicous that people think your style has changed or because you think it would be easy for a wolf to join the choir?

To be honest; in the begining I was thinking "Is this how Lommy normaly acts"

Moving on. . . Something that scares me is how little I suspect Nogrod, normally I always find him slightly wicked-ish, but not this time. Maybe it is because I have gotten used to his style or maybe it is because he is actually evil this time around.

Anyways I am very sorry, but I will have to vote early today as we have a staff meeting at work today and I am not sure it will finnish in time for the deadline. . . also we might want to grap a beer after the meeting.

So you can expect my vote within 2 hours.

EDIT: Cross Posted With Gaunt

Brinniel · 10-09-2008, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate

Is this the old "Brinniel rule"? ("Brinniel is to be lynched early in the game, and she will be revealed innocent; however if she survives past Day 3, she's a Wolf.")

Hey, I've made it past Day 3 and have been innocent before. Of course I usually wind up being a misguided ordo who suspects all the wrong people...so maybe you should just lynch me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rune

Also I would like to make it clear that by not voting you are actually more responsible for getting an innocent lynched than if you made a seemingly random vote, because even though one feel like it is random it is always based on something. . . it might be tone in the post or some other small thing, but at least you tried to get a traitor and there is more chance of you saving an innocent by voting than by not voting.

But the problem is I really had nobody. No one single post caught my eye as suspicious. My random vote would've literally been random...I would've closed my eyes and pointed at a name. That's not a fair way to vote which is why I didn't do it, and I truly didn't have time to consider my options. Surely if I had voted, I would probably be criticised for my choice and how I went about it....so it's a lose-lose situation for me.

Something's wrong with me...I can't seem form opinions of anyone still. My brain must be exhausted. I might be around later, but I can't be sure so I think I'll vote soon. But who to vote for? Hmmm. I might just have to use the process of elimination to come to a decision..

Mithalwen · 10-09-2008, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I don't really understand this "oh Lommy plays so differently" stuff. Quite a many people seem to think so, and as I do not think there are any grounds to think so, it strikes me as a little furry.

Well I still think it was odd, I stand by that. And if noticing stuff that genuinely seems odd makes me look treacherous I'll take my chances. You seem to be protesting too much .. I might have forgotten about it if you hadn't dragged it up again.

Time for work...

Nogrod · 10-09-2008, 06:45 AM

How sweet and familiar this feels again! I mean I was getting worried yesterDay when basically no one wished to see me to the gallows! That was weird.

But now as everything is back to normal... I'll start playing.

Two or four werewolves, together or against each other - or two pairs of lovers, or whatever, we need to start catching them.

I'll start with looking at that "wannabe-bandwagon". It looks too delicious for a careless baddie not to take part in...

Nogrod · 10-09-2008, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaunt

If he is a werewolf, wouldn't it make sense for him to kill someone who had been involved? That way he gets rid of a player who is more likely to successfully analyse his behaviour, and creates the impression of one of the quieter players lurking in the shadows, picking off the more talkative wargs.

Sure, that would make sense but it would also be the most unsporty way of playing this game. I mean there are result-oriented players who only care for the win and then those who like a good game whatever the end-result. I'm definitively of the latter type. What's the fun in a quiet village where there is nothing to play?

Which brings me to this next one:

Quote:

As for the second theory, it doesn't give us much to go on - how are we too choose between the players who have not been heavily involved? The only way I can think is by anlysing the posts they have made explaining why they have not, or will not, be posting very much. But I for one would not be confident enough to make a prediction based on this

Exactly! That is why I like to press those non-players as much as I can (call it threatening if you wish - to me it's a way of trying to make them post and talk eg. to play in the first place) and if there is no better candidate I'm more than willing to lynch them so that there would be an actual game in the end - if I ever make it there myself or not.

The problem with this inbalance is that it's always easier to find this or that from someone who actually posts a lot than from one who just says "Hi, let's bag the wolves". As you Gaunt said, the latter "cause" doesn't make one confident with one's vote.

Brinniel · 10-09-2008, 07:10 AM

Process of elimination....

Legate of Amon Lanc
Thinlómien
Kath
Nogrod
Gwathagor
Shastanis Althreduin
Brinniel
Mithalwen
Diamond
Groin Redbeard
Gollum The Great
Rune Son of Bjarne
Gaunt

I'd rather not see another player I've never played with go so soon. I don't know their styles, so I want to give Gollum and Gaunt a chance.

Di's hardly been here, so I won't vote her.

As tempted as I am to vote Rune, it probably for the simple reason that it is Rune.

But I always suspect him and he ends up innocent...I don't think I've ever played with him when he was a wolf. I have no reason to vote him.

Mith seems the most innocent to me. Nogrod can be a dangerous wolf, but a helpful innocent....I'd rather not lynch him this early. Poor Shasta always gets lynched early and turns out innocent...I don't really know about him, but I'd like to give him at least another Day. Same goes with Kath...she keeps dying so early, I'd like to see her actually play before voting her.

That leaves:

Lommy
Legate
Gwath
Groin

Hmmm... Crap. I'm gonna be late to class...

Rune Son of Bjarne · 10-09-2008, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brinniel

But the problem is I really had nobody. No one single post caught my eye as suspicious. My random vote would've literally been random...I would've closed my eyes and pointed at a name. That's not a fair way to vote which is why I didn't do it, and I truly didn't have time to consider my options. Surely if I had voted, I would probably be criticised for my choice and how I went about it....so it's a lose-lose situation for me.

A vote will always be more fair than no vote, maybe not to the one voted on, but to the rest of us wargs.
Anyways I shall drop this subject now and move on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Which brings me to this next one:Exactly! That is why I like to press those non-players as much as I can (call it threatening if you wish - to me it's a way of trying to make them post and talk eg. to play in the first place) and if there is no better candidate I'm more than willing to lynch them so that there would be an actual game in the end - if I ever make it there myself or not.

Gaunt · 10-09-2008, 08:17 AM

Nogrod: "Sure, that would make sense but it would also be the most unsporty way of playing this game. I mean there are result-oriented players who only care for the win and then those who like a good game whatever the end-result. I'm definitively of the latter type. What's the fun in a quiet village where there is nothing to play"

Fair point Nogrod, but I believe, and think someone like you would also believe, that a game only really works if people play competitively to the best of their abilities. Now if you, who I gather to be an experienced werewolf player, knew that you could do something to improve your chances of winning, I think you would do it, and in that light I see your claim to just be in it for a good game to be insincere, and a futher attempt to throw people off. I think you would really think that people trying to win MAKES for a good game.

Or I could be completely over-analysing this.

Gwathagor · 10-09-2008, 08:29 AM

Good morning, everyone. I am here and I am reading.

Nogrod · 10-09-2008, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaunt

Now if you, who I gather to be an experienced werewolf player, knew that you could do something to improve your chances of winning, I think you would do it
...
I think you would really think that people trying to win MAKES for a good game.

First sentence: I agree in part; the second one: agreed fully. A game where there is winning and losing isn't a good game if someone tries to lose in purpose. But playing by trying to only maximise one's chances of winning or staying alive is not my piece of cake. *maybe that's the reason I never became an investment banker*

When I'm a wolf I want to have challenges and keep the dangerous players around - then I either lose with dignity and pride or win with the greatest spoils there are. When innocent I try to keep the discussion going, suspecting everyone as much as I can to really open the discussions and to help other people who will actually play and not just hun'ker down to stay alive - it oftentimes leads to an untimely death because I'm not rubbing all the people the nice way, but it has been worth it if it's been fun or if it later helps the village to find out the culprits.

Quote:

Or I could be completely over-analysing this.

The level of analysing is fine. It's very good indeed! But you only over-estimate my thrive to win with any means.

Nogrod · 10-09-2008, 09:24 AM

Okay, Groin would you mind answering a question or two?

You've had quite a crusade on me toDay but I really can't find any reasons why that is. Looking at your determination with it one would think you had something.

First: if you "have always a bad feeling about me in WW" then how do you justify that to yourself as a reason to suspect me in any given particular game?

Now let me give you a suggestion and do answer if you feel you need to. An innocent needs to be careful not to help in lynching an innocent and will thence be a bit careful with his suspicions - not that we shouldn't suspect everyone, on the contrary that's what we need to do - but an innocent should not monomaniacally go after one person if there is no good reason for it. Were you a wolf or a no-brainer (which I know you are not) I could understand the way you play...

Secondly: you say "He is always the perfect wolf because he behaves like a wolf all the time". I'm still waiting for any clarification on that matter both generally and even more so in this game in particular... It's easy to say "X doesn't sit right with me" or "I'm feling bad about Y" or "Z behaves like a wolf" if that's all you say. It requires some actual playing to then elaborate why. But looking at the situation where this was said suggests the intent of the comment was not so much to give further arguments to lynch me (that would clarify or add to the reasons for it) but to just keep up the spirit / discussion of lynching me. An innocent doesn't behave that way if he doesn't have a strong case - or at least I can't see the rationale behind that from an innocent.

So are you a wolf then?

Gollum: I said yesterDay that I won't be suggesting lynching you in your first game just because you decided to make your only suspicion on those that had been the only talkers - without any other reason. But it looks like you are continuing the game in the same mode, not giving forwards even a tiny little bit of reason for your suspicions. Please speak. No "threats" this time. I think I need not do that any more...

Reading through that wannabe-bandwagon gave me bad news as well. Looking at the way Lommy, Legate and Rune go to and fro there between being nice and considerate and backtracking a bit to keep the issue alive fits perfectly with the way a wolf would act...

Okay that's for that thing. When I come back I hope there are other issues to tackle as this may be more or less wasting time.

And to add...

Gwath's explanation is taken in and his status in my suspicion-list has fallen back to where it was yesterDay. Also Mith seems innocentish alongside Brinn (I don't see where you guys see her suspicious - nice, yes, but the RL explanations are too convincing as she wouldn't be that unsporty). Also Gaunt looks very good right now.

Of Di, Kath and Shasta I have nothing to say... for the obvious reason. Let's hope they can change that before the Day draws to a close.

Gwathagor · 10-09-2008, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I don't really understand this "oh Lommy plays so differently" stuff. Quite a many people seem to think so, and as I do not think there are any grounds to think so, it strikes me as a little furry. This looks like the classic case of an innocent stating a weird opinion and the wolves following it because they don't realise it's a weird opinion because they are evil and thus their brain is not for real in the wolf-seeking mode or then they just one to get someone lynched, or something. That is to say that I wouldn't be surprised at all to find a wolf among those who talk about my changed playing style. In my opinion, I'm not playing any differently than before (unless you're all still talking about that accusation-throwing post, which was an intentional try at that kind of discussion-stirring) and just for your information, I'm not trying a new style to confuse you or to amuse myself. If there really is a difference in my playing style, it's totally unintentional. You may draw your conclusions from that.

This could also be a sneaky werewolf tactic for reversing suspicion from yourself on to your accusers.

Groin, you said: "Shhh, Gollum, you're making us look suspicious!

"

I'd say you've been around long enough to attempt reverse psychology. Is that what's going on here?

EDIT: Crossed with Nogrod

Rune Son of Bjarne · 10-09-2008, 09:30 AM

Alright, I am running late and have little idea who to vote for, but hopefully I will by the end of this post.

Lets start with the people I am not going to vote for:

Groin: He has this air of innocens around him. . . It is not that I agree with him as such, but it is the fact that he does not seem the least bit manipulative.

Kath: It is annoying that she is not around, but I really want her around at least for another day.

Nogrod: Because he seem very Nogrod-ish and this normaly means he is innocent, but I am probably going to change my mind later in the game. . .I mean it is Nogrod.

Gaunt:I need more time to analyse

Lommy: A mixture of what I said about Nogrod and Gaunt.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Might vote for:

Mithalwen: She does the same as yesterday, she is hear says some not too controversial things and the nothing. (unless you count that thing about Lommy acting weird as controversial) Whenever I encounter this I get a fear that people are trying to fly under the radar, I might vote for her again today.

Brinn: She insists on not voting and then appologises, says she has to vote soon because of RL things and then seems to leave. I might have misunderstood her though. Does some of the same as Mith, take that middle ground where you are not vocal and not non-vocal.

Legate: He just confuses me, I simply cannot get a read on him. . .but since I have no actual case other than that it seems unfair to vote for him at this stage.

Allright I am going to go for Mith again . . . . It is not a personal thing, but I just haven't had the chance to do proper analysing today. (one should not think so with all the posts)

++Mithalwen
[/FONT]

EDIT: Cross Posted With Nogrod and Gwath

Gwathagor · 10-09-2008, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

You've had quite a crusade on me toDay but I really can't find any reasons why that is. Looking at your determination with it one would think you had something.

Wow, Nogrod. Looking back over toDay's posts, you're certainly right about that. When Groin says anything at all, it's usually about you. Huh.

Diamond18 · 10-09-2008, 10:06 AM

I've only had time to skim the posts, and unfortunately I have a lot of stuff to do today before work but I'll try to check back in with a vote. I hope to have time to read more and find something to base it on, but I don't know.

Sorry for not being around at all; busy RL has collided with a bad cold and left WW in the lurch.

Brinniel · 10-09-2008, 10:12 AM

Phew, I made it back. And I barely made it to class on time.

I was going to vote then, but as you can see I ran out of time. Now I have some extra time on my hands...not much, but at least a little more time to consider who I should vote for.

Mithalwen · 10-09-2008, 10:29 AM

Great - Rune has voted for me for having a job. Or maybe being ill or having to spend time with the Ancient Parent on his birthday. Fantastic.

May as well go home now and be ill in comfort. Frankly it does seems personal. "It isn't personal" it is -one of those phrases where the meaning is the exact opposite of the literal semantics like "With the greatest respect", "it's not you, it's me", "I'm FINE". And if I seem irritable - that is because I am. Fever and nausea does that to you.

Gaunt · 10-09-2008, 10:42 AM

I am not going to vote for Nogrod today, I think. I will give it some more time to see if he is innocent or if he is manipulating me very skillfully.

And part of my reason for this is that Redbeard does seem to have made the case against Nogrod based on little more than him once lightly criticising a player for not taking part enough.

Hmm

Brinniel · 10-09-2008, 10:58 AM

The age old question: Can we ever get through a WW game without the quiet/loud player debate? I think it can be mutually agreed that wolves can fall into either category just as easily...

Okay, as far as voting candidates go (coming from my earlier process of elimination):

Lommy: I actually agree with others that she does seem to be acting a bit differently. I don't know what it is...perhaps her tone. In earlier days I probably would've thought this suspicous...but then I think back to a couple games ago when Lommy was a wolf, yet seemed so innocent to me...she actually managed to fly under the radar in that game. And this time it's completely different. I almost want to say that there's a cobblerish feel to her posts, but we don't even know if there is a cobbler. But as of right now, she just doesn't look furry to me.

Legate: I think the same thing can be said of him as I said about Nogrod: He's dangerous as a wolf, but very helpful as an innocent. I can't get a good read on him right now, but I can't help but feel wary. I know how a Legate-wolf can easily fool an entire village.

Gwath: Looking through his posts toDay, I think he seems innocentish. I just feel that there's an honest quality about him.

Groin: Not so innocent, I feel. From the very beginning of toDay, his arguments just feel fabricated and his tone false. I don't know exactly how to describe it, but his words just seem too carefully placed.

Gaunt · 10-09-2008, 11:07 AM

More thoughts on the Nogrod-Redbeard axis.

Having read over the posts again, I am still suspicious of Nogrod. His actions (and possible actions) so far, when viewed together strike me as forming a pattern that could be, and I don't say definitely is, a werewolf strategy.

I have already discussed his mild hostility towards light participants. But he voted for Samwise - one of the clearest voices on the first day. If we assume he is a werewolf and he killed Kitanna, there is another attack on a player whose contribution, if not the most prominent, was certainly visible.

So the strategy that I propose he may be following is this: pick off strong players one by one whilst gently convincing others to vote for the less prominent wargs. This seems to work because a lot of the experienced players have a hard time suspecting him of anything because they see this as the way he always behaves. That may be so, but observe that his vote didn't exactly follow the message he has been putting across in his posts.

As for Redbeard, whilst he may be right in suspecting Nogrod, I don't think he suspects him for the right reasons. He just seemed to single-mindedly launch into his attacks on Nogrod without a great deal of evidence. If he had made the case as I have above then I would have been more convinced. But that's not to say that I necessarily think there is much reason to believe Redbeard is a werewolf. I'm trying to think why he would be targeting Nogrod if he was a werewolf. I suppose he could just be turning on an outspoken player to take attention away from himself.

Brinniel · 10-09-2008, 11:16 AM

A lot of my suspicion or non-suspicion toDay has to do with tone. I don't have time to throroughly read each post and pick out specific quotes I find odd as one might normally do. But then again, tone is an important part of this game. Sometimes it's easier to spot a wolf not based on what they say, but how they say it. Which is why I'm voting for:

++Groin

Because as I stated, there's something in his tone that seems false to me.

That's it from me...I must be off to class again. I hope I'll still be alive come toMorrow so that I can actually participate. I just feel bad when I'm not able to be as active as I normally am...and I hate having to vote so early (there you go, typical procrastinator mindset

).

Gollum the Great · 10-09-2008, 11:43 AM

I have returned.

Looking at "The Prophecy Thingamijig Part II", it seems that if the true wargs gather together (which seems pretty hard to do) our deliverance will be through chance. The originator of the evil at this gathering is coming closer (closer, perhaps, to revealing himself) but someone is following him. These two- the originator and the follower- are both marching on the axis- apparently our traitors.

Just my interpretation.

Kath · 10-09-2008, 11:44 AM

Hi all. I'm going to make a couple of posts before dinner and then hopefully I'll be able to be around right up until the deadline. I want to look at what Samwise said yesterDay and how and by whom it got him killed. I'd also like to look at what Kitanna said yesterDay because her death does seem pretty random and I somehow doubt that it really was. Then with what I get from those I'll have a look at what's been going on toDay.

Yeah, you probably didn't actually need to know all that but I figured I'd let you know that I am around and doing something.

Mithalwen · 10-09-2008, 11:48 AM

I resisted teh temptation to go home in a fit of pique but I feel quite rubbish. Will have a read and try to make a sensible vote before I go .

Kath · 10-09-2008, 12:26 PM

Samwise:

Arrived pretty early on and began disecting Eomer's narrations. Said 'at the risk of becoming prominent'. I didn't think much about that yesterDay but now given then knowledge of his role I wonder whether a wolf might have picked up on it.

Lommy says she recalls spotting him as a wolf before - possibly setting herself up with something to fall back on if she's a wolf and needs a scapegoat.

Kitanna has him as undecided in her thoughts, maybe she was simply a kill with no trail.

Ah! Nogrod noticed the prominent thing - but I think put a different interpretation on it.

Has as suspicious: Legate, Rune, Brinn, Lommy, Shasta , Nogrod

Has as innocent: Gwath, Kitanna

The rest he seems pretty unsure about. Then votes Brinn because he doesn't want to wonder why the baddies would leave her alive. It's odd reasoning for a vote to me ... I can see why this would have made him suspicious to innocents and interesting to wolves.

Legate went straight from Samwise not standing out to suddenly doing so for being contrary, voting safely (I must disagree here, if the person was a safe vote the manner of it certainly wasn't!), repeating that we shouldn't focus on the prophecy. I'm not quite sure I understand his being contrary thing - especially that quote he has about Gwath. Gwath shows independent thinking and is applauded for that by being thought of as innocent - hardly seems being nice with a twist of suspicion. Perhaps this is Day 1 suspicion, making the most of the little you have - or it may be me reading it with the knowledge of the outcome.

Nog still making a big thing about 'prominent' and Samwise's answer to that being picked up. I think the confusion must result from the language barrier because it seems obvious to me that Samwise was saying he had been worried about getting noticed for having too much content in his post and then found that Nogrod picked him up for not having enough in there to warrant the prominent comment. Given, say, Lommy's post which I think came before Samwise's I can see his point somewhat if he'd only seen character based babble before posting.

Kitanna had some very good points on Samwise's vote. Why was Brinn being left alive any more important than anyone else being left alive. He can have had no more information than anyone else unless the Ranger had powers we don't know about.

Legate says he's likely to vote Samwise.

Now, having focused on Samwise earlier, Nog suddenly puts him in the same category as me when trying to work out his role, simply giving him a 'so?' which seems pretty odd.

Kitanna repeats that Samwise looks odd but decides that the recklessness of the vote means he is unlikely to be a wolf.

Really odd reasoning from Legate about his vote. He had reasons for voting Samwise, and yet felt it necessary to explain why he was discounting everyone else. If Samwise was the only person he had real suspicions of, why go through the motions?

Nogrod is now suddenly back to having Samwise as a possible wolf when he'd previously been a huh?

Legate votes Samwise.

Nogrod votes Samwise.

Soo, from this. Lommy, Kitanna, Nogrod and Legate were the only ones who had any real contact with him or spoke much about him. Lommy I'm unsure about here, I don't think she interacted with him enough to bother looking at it in great depth. Kitanna I am inclined to think actually may have thought Samwise was Gifted and backed off once she'd figured that out. Legate is consistent and does find adequate reasons for suspicion, I don't like his vote explanation but that could just be his style. Nogrod I don't like for his flip-flopping.

So out of the two that voted for him I would put Nog as the wolvish one, but I wouldn't discount Legate.

Right, off to look at Kitanna, hopefully will get that done before dinner.

Oh, and might I say having only just noticed - Lommy ... Kathie? Please no. Kat, Kath, Kate, Katy, Katherine, oy you, any of them, but please don't make me sound like some middle aged person trying to sound young!

Thinlómien · 10-09-2008, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate

Well, personally I don't think this is a reason for him to look innocent; now especially now we are talking about Nogrod - and he may as well have voted somebody who was already voted for rather than to cast a random vote, don't you think? This is not to say that I think it makes him guilty, but I am negating the idea of that this would be something which I would consider a plus for the thought of him being innocent.

Well, now that you made me think more about it, I think you're right. I think I was confusing the most reasonable thing to do with the most innocent thing to do - or simply, I felt good about Nogrod not introducing a new candidate so I instinctively thought him innocentish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwath

Groin, you said: "Shhh, Gollum, you're making us look suspicious! "
I'd say you've been around long enough to attempt reverse psychology. Is that what's going on here?

I think you're making too much out of a joke, Gwathie...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rune

Is this because you find it supicous that people think your style has changed or because you think it would be easy for a wolf to join the choir?

Both. The whole false-seeming notion could be of wolvish origin, but more importantly, it's the kind of nonsense a wolf would join in and support. So the latter more than the earlier.

I don't really find anyone suspicious right now...

If I had to throw in a few names, I would say Brinn, Gwath and Mith are as close as it gets but I don't really suspect them either. I will have to think about this more - I think I will make a list.

And what I'm going to do next is having a look at Kit's posts. It has waited for too long.

edit: xed with Kath

Groin Redbeard · 10-09-2008, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Okay, Groin would you mind answering a question or two?

You've had quite a crusade on me toDay but I really can't find any reasons why that is. Looking at your determination with it one would think you had something.

First: if you "have always a bad feeling about me in WW" then how do you justify that to yourself as a reason to suspect me in any given particular game?

I have given a reason: the way that you told Gollum to back off, but like you said that is a pretty flimsy excuse and you're right that was not the real reason why I made a "crusade" against you on toDay.

Like I said before I have bad feelings about you in WW, this being from what I saw in the last game we played together, so I decided to see if you are a Were Warg by trying to cause you to slip. The obvious way of doing this is to accuse you right on, very loudly I might add,

so that you will start pointing fingers and hopefully someone who is better acquainted with you Were Warg personality would jump on you *smiles an evil smile.* However, the more esteemed players seem to have low suspicions of you, so there might be no real danger.

EDIT: X'ed with Thinlomien

Kath · 10-09-2008, 12:51 PM

Kitanna:

Popped in with a quick hello.

Lommy mentions automatic suspicion of anyone who just pops in with said quick hello. I understand that (and hey, liking me being the exception to the rule

), and she was summarising the grand total of 15 odd posts.

Kitanna says can't get much out of Lommy because she's suspicious of everyone, and that while Legate is being helpful she thinks he is too bogged down in analysis of the narration. Nevertheless she thinks them both pretty innocent. Wonders if Samwise, Gwath and Gaunt were simply bandwaggoning.

Gwath (I think jokingly) complains about Kitanna not appreciating his originality.

Kitanna sort of (

) apologises to Gwath but reiterates her point - and it was a fair one.

Nog says Kitanna's first post worries him as it's a 'here I am' one. Basically repeats her next post adding no information on why the mention of Lommy worries him. Says he didn't get why Legate would be the one to crack the narration when everyone else has looked at it too, despite the fact that Kitanna was clearly of the opinion that Legate pretty much started the analysis and the others followed on and that Legate had tried the hardest. This may not be correct but it was where she was coming from.

Kitanna explains herself to Nogrod.

Kitanna and Rune get into a bit of a muddle with Kitanna thinking Rune is questioning Lommy when in fact he's poking Nogrod.

Legate questions the 'fodder' comment about Lommy - good questions actually.

Samwise lists her as innocent.

Explains her Lommy stuff to Legate. The explanation is pretty odd really.

Which Legate then picks up on. Forms some options for the oddness, doesn't jump straight to assuming she's a wolf for it which speaks of restraint on his part. Careful wolf? Especially as he then completely clears her. I wonder if he thought the comment was a Seer-hint? Could be a nice double bluff if so.

Lommy says Kitanna is the only one who has really been suspected which really isn't the case when you look at how people were treating Samwise. As well as that Lommy herself had been under some suspicion. It's just an odd thing to say it when it clearly wasn't the case. Says she'd rather Kitanna stayed alive - covering her bases because she planned to kill her that Night?

Kitanna states her worries about Samwise's vote and disagrees with Legate about it having been a safe one. Also questions Gollum about why Lommy is suspicious.

Nogrod says Kitanna feels innocent but leaves himself something of an out relating to the one post of hers he didn't like.

Kitanna clears Samwise from her voting possibilities with good reason and continues to argue with Nogrod. Also says she's likely to random vote - quite possible that thanks to her having left herself with no suspicions and then voting randomly she signed her own death warrant.

Votes me out of a hat.

Ok, I'm thinking it's probable that out of whatever list the wolves had of possible kills last Night Kitanna would definitely have been on it due to her unfortunate tying up of loose ends in her penultimate post. However, I think Lommy's behaviour toward Kitanna was somewhat suspicious. The way Legate acted makes him seem more innocent to me, he was arguing solidly with good reasoning. Nog is being very 'oh it could be this but then' which I'm not sure is like him, and he seems to be misunderstanding a lot of things this game. Could be a tactic.

I have to go eat now because my stomach has been complaining all through this post! I will return to look at toDay in the light of yesterDay and to vote.

Nogrod · 10-09-2008, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kath

Nogrod I don't like for his flip-flopping.

Let's not bring the U.S. presidental election soundbites from 2004 into a WW game...

I suspected Samwise in the beginning - after the first posts and pointed it out only to retract that a bit after looking at others and seeing other possibilities emerge as people actually posted.

Sadly, at the time of voting (at the actual DL) people who had gotten votes (one per person!) so far were:

Brinn (seemed innocent to me)
Lommy (I was very unsure about and so wouldn't lynch a player who could make a difference on Day1 for that)
Kath

(even if I dislike your Day1 strategy I thought there was no reason to give you the second vote as you could be a force for good)
Mith (looked more innocent than not)
Gollum (first-timer, benefit of doubt even if I disliked the way he posted on Day1)
Shasta (Always gets lynched early + seemed to be soo uninterested in the game I thought he probably is innocent)
Sam (the one I had actually suspected earlier)

What would you have suggested me to vote for? Thrown a new name to the tally and leave it to lottery as there was no sign of Gollum or Gwath being around for hours - and they voted minutes late?

Ahh... a host of posts in... I'll continue in a bit after reading the last ones (from Lommy onwards)

Groin Redbeard · 10-09-2008, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Groin, you said: "Shhh, Gollum, you're making us look suspicious!

"

I'd say you've been around long enough to attempt reverse psychology. Is that what's going on here?

Psychology? Oh you are too kind, but I'm afraid it was just a bit of silly sarcasm!

OK, Legate is looking pretty innocent to me right now. He's being way too helpful for being a Were Warg, pointing that whole deal with Lommy. Same opinion I'm having with Kath, she's doing to well of a job with keeping helpful posts of what has happened so far.

Nobody seems to be hopping on the lynch Nogrod wagon, so I guess that means it was just me who suspected him. He's off my list of suspicious characters for right now.

Gaunt and Gollum are entirely innocent. Gaunt is trying to get a grasp of the situation and Gollum is more of a bandwagon type of player, as we saw in the beginning of Day 2 with Nogrod.

I don't know about Mith or Lommy yet. I'll have to do some quick looking back!

Gollum the Great · 10-09-2008, 01:07 PM

Crud, gotta go! No explanation for my vote!

++Nogrod

Groin Redbeard · 10-09-2008, 01:11 PM

I can't find anything suspicious with Mith but Lommy on the other hand doesn't seem to be too helpful. As we see in posts 123 & 153 she is almost always defending herself or making short comments on the ideas of others but doesn't really go out on a limb by suspecting anyone. For the most part she seems content with criticizing others, but it doesn't even feel like she's doing it to really shape opinions. This either typical Thinlomien playing or a Were Warg playing it safe.

EDIT: X'ed with Gollum

Diamond18 · 10-09-2008, 01:15 PM

I've had a little time to read but no time to write up any decent sort of post. So just a quick vote before I have to leave:

++Brinn

10-09-2008, 06:10 AM	#126
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,530	Well Gaunt it seems we have a set up unknown to any of us here so you may not be at a disadvantage!!! That prophecy is creeping me out but having the kind of brain that finds word puzzles too fascinating I fear it may become a distraction. It is certainly unusual for someone to get lynched on 2 votes. And Groin seems to have taken up my mantle of wanting Nogrod dead just to help clear the mind!!! I have about another half hour now and plan to return till the end after work but I seem to be incubating a head cold so if I can't "head it off at the pass" I may have to curtail again... hope not but if my head is still cottonwooly I won't be much help. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

10-09-2008, 06:28 AM	#127
Gaunt Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The bleak splendour of the north. Ok, Aberdeen. Posts: 28	Ok, I think I am starting to get the hang of this now. As far as I can see suspicion is divided into two categories: 1. Suspicion based on heavy participation and aggressive or at least confident accuastions and public theorising (this type of suspicion seems to me what led to the lynching of Samwise and suspicions now being directed at Nogrod) 2. Suspicion based on light or non participation Regarding the first theory, Nogrod is, it seems, the prime suspect at present. Now, judging by the other posts, he is behaving in the way he normally does when playing werewolf. However, i'm not convinced by Legate's theory below: Although there's one thing, I don't belive Nog-wolf would pick Kitanna for a first kill. That'd really testify strongly against him in my eyes. He would pick some quiet one to "punish" him. If he is a werewolf, wouldn't it make sense for him to kill someone who had been involved? That way he gets rid of a player who is more likely to successfully analyse his behaviour, and creates the impression of one of the quieter players lurking in the shadows, picking off the more talkative wargs. And by decrying their non-involvement and threatening to vote for them, he further polarises the group and hopes to direct suspicion on to those quieter wargs. Even as I write this i'm not sure, but it does seem very convenient that his past reputation in the game clears him from suspicion in the eyes of some. More thought is required. As for the second theory, it doesn't give us much to go on - how are we too choose between the players who have not been heavily involved? The only way I can think is by anlysing the posts they have made explaining why they have not, or will not, be posting very much. But I for one would not be confident enough to make a prediction based on this Last edited by Gaunt; 10-09-2008 at 06:31 AM. Reason: spelling

10-09-2008, 06:45 AM	#131
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,310	How sweet and familiar this feels again! I mean I was getting worried yesterDay when basically no one wished to see me to the gallows! That was weird. But now as everything is back to normal... I'll start playing. Two or four werewolves, together or against each other - or two pairs of lovers, or whatever, we need to start catching them. I'll start with looking at that "wannabe-bandwagon". It looks too delicious for a careless baddie not to take part in... __________________ Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet...

10-09-2008, 07:10 AM	#133
Brinniel Reflection of Darkness Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Polishing the stars. Well, somebody has to do it; they're looking a little bit dull. Posts: 2,999	Process of elimination.... Legate of Amon Lanc Thinlómien Kath Nogrod Gwathagor Shastanis Althreduin Brinniel Mithalwen Diamond Groin Redbeard Gollum The Great Rune Son of Bjarne Gaunt I'd rather not see another player I've never played with go so soon. I don't know their styles, so I want to give Gollum and Gaunt a chance. Di's hardly been here, so I won't vote her. As tempted as I am to vote Rune, it probably for the simple reason that it is Rune. But I always suspect him and he ends up innocent...I don't think I've ever played with him when he was a wolf. I have no reason to vote him. Mith seems the most innocent to me. Nogrod can be a dangerous wolf, but a helpful innocent....I'd rather not lynch him this early. Poor Shasta always gets lynched early and turns out innocent...I don't really know about him, but I'd like to give him at least another Day. Same goes with Kath...she keeps dying so early, I'd like to see her actually play before voting her. That leaves: Lommy Legate Gwath Groin Hmmm... Crap. I'm gonna be late to class... __________________ Nolite te bastardes carborundorum

10-09-2008, 08:17 AM	#135
Gaunt Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The bleak splendour of the north. Ok, Aberdeen. Posts: 28	Nogrod: "Sure, that would make sense but it would also be the most unsporty way of playing this game. I mean there are result-oriented players who only care for the win and then those who like a good game whatever the end-result. I'm definitively of the latter type. What's the fun in a quiet village where there is nothing to play" Fair point Nogrod, but I believe, and think someone like you would also believe, that a game only really works if people play competitively to the best of their abilities. Now if you, who I gather to be an experienced werewolf player, knew that you could do something to improve your chances of winning, I think you would do it, and in that light I see your claim to just be in it for a good game to be insincere, and a futher attempt to throw people off. I think you would really think that people trying to win MAKES for a good game. Or I could be completely over-analysing this. Last edited by Gaunt; 10-09-2008 at 08:18 AM. Reason: mistake

10-09-2008, 05:55 AM	#125
Gaunt Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The bleak splendour of the north. Ok, Aberdeen. Posts: 28	Hello All, Apologies for my lack of participation thus far - I have been very busy. Anyway, I feel pity for Samwise Gamgee - it was almost as if just by making himself noticed he aroused suspicion (for two people at least!) rather than by actually saying anything that was genuinely suspicious. Being new to this lark I don't really have much of a suspicion about anyone at this stage, but I will read over the posts in more detail and try to come up with something.

10-09-2008, 08:29 AM	#136
Gwathagor Shade with a Blade Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: A Rainy Night In Soho Posts: 2,545	Good morning, everyone. I am here and I am reading. __________________ Stories and songs.

10-09-2008, 09:24 AM	#138
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,310	Okay, Groin would you mind answering a question or two? You've had quite a crusade on me toDay but I really can't find any reasons why that is. Looking at your determination with it one would think you had something. First: if you "have always a bad feeling about me in WW" then how do you justify that to yourself as a reason to suspect me in any given particular game? Now let me give you a suggestion and do answer if you feel you need to. An innocent needs to be careful not to help in lynching an innocent and will thence be a bit careful with his suspicions - not that we shouldn't suspect everyone, on the contrary that's what we need to do - but an innocent should not monomaniacally go after one person if there is no good reason for it. Were you a wolf or a no-brainer (which I know you are not) I could understand the way you play... Secondly: you say "He is always the perfect wolf because he behaves like a wolf all the time". I'm still waiting for any clarification on that matter both generally and even more so in this game in particular... It's easy to say "X doesn't sit right with me" or "I'm feling bad about Y" or "Z behaves like a wolf" if that's all you say. It requires some actual playing to then elaborate why. But looking at the situation where this was said suggests the intent of the comment was not so much to give further arguments to lynch me (that would clarify or add to the reasons for it) but to just keep up the spirit / discussion of lynching me. An innocent doesn't behave that way if he doesn't have a strong case - or at least I can't see the rationale behind that from an innocent. So are you a wolf then? Gollum: I said yesterDay that I won't be suggesting lynching you in your first game just because you decided to make your only suspicion on those that had been the only talkers - without any other reason. But it looks like you are continuing the game in the same mode, not giving forwards even a tiny little bit of reason for your suspicions. Please speak. No "threats" this time. I think I need not do that any more... Reading through that wannabe-bandwagon gave me bad news as well. Looking at the way Lommy, Legate and Rune go to and fro there between being nice and considerate and backtracking a bit to keep the issue alive fits perfectly with the way a wolf would act... Okay that's for that thing. When I come back I hope there are other issues to tackle as this may be more or less wasting time. And to add... Gwath's explanation is taken in and his status in my suspicion-list has fallen back to where it was yesterDay. Also Mith seems innocentish alongside Brinn (I don't see where you guys see her suspicious - nice, yes, but the RL explanations are too convincing as she wouldn't be that unsporty). Also Gaunt looks very good right now. Of Di, Kath and Shasta I have nothing to say... for the obvious reason. Let's hope they can change that before the Day draws to a close. __________________ Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet... Last edited by Nogrod; 10-09-2008 at 09:28 AM.

10-09-2008, 10:06 AM	#142
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,493	I've only had time to skim the posts, and unfortunately I have a lot of stuff to do today before work but I'll try to check back in with a vote. I hope to have time to read more and find something to base it on, but I don't know. Sorry for not being around at all; busy RL has collided with a bad cold and left WW in the lurch. __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

10-09-2008, 10:12 AM	#143
Brinniel Reflection of Darkness Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Polishing the stars. Well, somebody has to do it; they're looking a little bit dull. Posts: 2,999	Phew, I made it back. And I barely made it to class on time. I was going to vote then, but as you can see I ran out of time. Now I have some extra time on my hands...not much, but at least a little more time to consider who I should vote for. __________________ Nolite te bastardes carborundorum

10-09-2008, 10:29 AM	#144
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,530	Great - Rune has voted for me for having a job. Or maybe being ill or having to spend time with the Ancient Parent on his birthday. Fantastic. May as well go home now and be ill in comfort. Frankly it does seems personal. "It isn't personal" it is -one of those phrases where the meaning is the exact opposite of the literal semantics like "With the greatest respect", "it's not you, it's me", "I'm FINE". And if I seem irritable - that is because I am. Fever and nausea does that to you. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

10-09-2008, 10:42 AM	#145
Gaunt Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The bleak splendour of the north. Ok, Aberdeen. Posts: 28	I am not going to vote for Nogrod today, I think. I will give it some more time to see if he is innocent or if he is manipulating me very skillfully. And part of my reason for this is that Redbeard does seem to have made the case against Nogrod based on little more than him once lightly criticising a player for not taking part enough. Hmm

10-09-2008, 10:58 AM	#146
Brinniel Reflection of Darkness Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Polishing the stars. Well, somebody has to do it; they're looking a little bit dull. Posts: 2,999	The age old question: Can we ever get through a WW game without the quiet/loud player debate? I think it can be mutually agreed that wolves can fall into either category just as easily... Okay, as far as voting candidates go (coming from my earlier process of elimination): Lommy: I actually agree with others that she does seem to be acting a bit differently. I don't know what it is...perhaps her tone. In earlier days I probably would've thought this suspicous...but then I think back to a couple games ago when Lommy was a wolf, yet seemed so innocent to me...she actually managed to fly under the radar in that game. And this time it's completely different. I almost want to say that there's a cobblerish feel to her posts, but we don't even know if there is a cobbler. But as of right now, she just doesn't look furry to me. Legate: I think the same thing can be said of him as I said about Nogrod: He's dangerous as a wolf, but very helpful as an innocent. I can't get a good read on him right now, but I can't help but feel wary. I know how a Legate-wolf can easily fool an entire village. Gwath: Looking through his posts toDay, I think he seems innocentish. I just feel that there's an honest quality about him. Groin: Not so innocent, I feel. From the very beginning of toDay, his arguments just feel fabricated and his tone false. I don't know exactly how to describe it, but his words just seem too carefully placed. __________________ Nolite te bastardes carborundorum

10-09-2008, 11:07 AM	#147
Gaunt Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The bleak splendour of the north. Ok, Aberdeen. Posts: 28	More thoughts on the Nogrod-Redbeard axis. Having read over the posts again, I am still suspicious of Nogrod. His actions (and possible actions) so far, when viewed together strike me as forming a pattern that could be, and I don't say definitely is, a werewolf strategy. I have already discussed his mild hostility towards light participants. But he voted for Samwise - one of the clearest voices on the first day. If we assume he is a werewolf and he killed Kitanna, there is another attack on a player whose contribution, if not the most prominent, was certainly visible. So the strategy that I propose he may be following is this: pick off strong players one by one whilst gently convincing others to vote for the less prominent wargs. This seems to work because a lot of the experienced players have a hard time suspecting him of anything because they see this as the way he always behaves. That may be so, but observe that his vote didn't exactly follow the message he has been putting across in his posts. As for Redbeard, whilst he may be right in suspecting Nogrod, I don't think he suspects him for the right reasons. He just seemed to single-mindedly launch into his attacks on Nogrod without a great deal of evidence. If he had made the case as I have above then I would have been more convinced. But that's not to say that I necessarily think there is much reason to believe Redbeard is a werewolf. I'm trying to think why he would be targeting Nogrod if he was a werewolf. I suppose he could just be turning on an outspoken player to take attention away from himself. Last edited by Gaunt; 10-09-2008 at 11:09 AM. Reason: grammar

10-09-2008, 11:16 AM	#148
Brinniel Reflection of Darkness Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Polishing the stars. Well, somebody has to do it; they're looking a little bit dull. Posts: 2,999	A lot of my suspicion or non-suspicion toDay has to do with tone. I don't have time to throroughly read each post and pick out specific quotes I find odd as one might normally do. But then again, tone is an important part of this game. Sometimes it's easier to spot a wolf not based on what they say, but how they say it. Which is why I'm voting for: ++Groin Because as I stated, there's something in his tone that seems false to me. That's it from me...I must be off to class again. I hope I'll still be alive come toMorrow so that I can actually participate. I just feel bad when I'm not able to be as active as I normally am...and I hate having to vote so early (there you go, typical procrastinator mindset ). __________________ Nolite te bastardes carborundorum

10-09-2008, 11:43 AM	#149
Gollum the Great Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The Pinnacle of my own might Posts: 391	I have returned. Looking at "The Prophecy Thingamijig Part II", it seems that if the true wargs gather together (which seems pretty hard to do) our deliverance will be through chance. The originator of the evil at this gathering is coming closer (closer, perhaps, to revealing himself) but someone is following him. These two- the originator and the follower- are both marching on the axis- apparently our traitors. Just my interpretation. __________________ 'It just shows you how true it is that one-half the world doesn't knows how the other three-quarters lives.' Bertie, The Code of the Woosters, by P. G. Wodewouse

10-09-2008, 11:44 AM	#150
Kath Everlasting Whiteness Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Perusing the laminated book of dreams Posts: 4,585	Hi all. I'm going to make a couple of posts before dinner and then hopefully I'll be able to be around right up until the deadline. I want to look at what Samwise said yesterDay and how and by whom it got him killed. I'd also like to look at what Kitanna said yesterDay because her death does seem pretty random and I somehow doubt that it really was. Then with what I get from those I'll have a look at what's been going on toDay. Yeah, you probably didn't actually need to know all that but I figured I'd let you know that I am around and doing something. __________________ “If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.”

10-09-2008, 11:48 AM	#151
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,530	I resisted teh temptation to go home in a fit of pique but I feel quite rubbish. Will have a read and try to make a sensible vote before I go . __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

10-09-2008, 12:26 PM	#152
Kath Everlasting Whiteness Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Perusing the laminated book of dreams Posts: 4,585	Samwise: Arrived pretty early on and began disecting Eomer's narrations. Said 'at the risk of becoming prominent'. I didn't think much about that yesterDay but now given then knowledge of his role I wonder whether a wolf might have picked up on it. Lommy says she recalls spotting him as a wolf before - possibly setting herself up with something to fall back on if she's a wolf and needs a scapegoat. Kitanna has him as undecided in her thoughts, maybe she was simply a kill with no trail. Ah! Nogrod noticed the prominent thing - but I think put a different interpretation on it. Has as suspicious: Legate, Rune, Brinn, Lommy, Shasta , Nogrod Has as innocent: Gwath, Kitanna The rest he seems pretty unsure about. Then votes Brinn because he doesn't want to wonder why the baddies would leave her alive. It's odd reasoning for a vote to me ... I can see why this would have made him suspicious to innocents and interesting to wolves. Legate went straight from Samwise not standing out to suddenly doing so for being contrary, voting safely (I must disagree here, if the person was a safe vote the manner of it certainly wasn't!), repeating that we shouldn't focus on the prophecy. I'm not quite sure I understand his being contrary thing - especially that quote he has about Gwath. Gwath shows independent thinking and is applauded for that by being thought of as innocent - hardly seems being nice with a twist of suspicion. Perhaps this is Day 1 suspicion, making the most of the little you have - or it may be me reading it with the knowledge of the outcome. Nog still making a big thing about 'prominent' and Samwise's answer to that being picked up. I think the confusion must result from the language barrier because it seems obvious to me that Samwise was saying he had been worried about getting noticed for having too much content in his post and then found that Nogrod picked him up for not having enough in there to warrant the prominent comment. Given, say, Lommy's post which I think came before Samwise's I can see his point somewhat if he'd only seen character based babble before posting. Kitanna had some very good points on Samwise's vote. Why was Brinn being left alive any more important than anyone else being left alive. He can have had no more information than anyone else unless the Ranger had powers we don't know about. Legate says he's likely to vote Samwise. Now, having focused on Samwise earlier, Nog suddenly puts him in the same category as me when trying to work out his role, simply giving him a 'so?' which seems pretty odd. Kitanna repeats that Samwise looks odd but decides that the recklessness of the vote means he is unlikely to be a wolf. Really odd reasoning from Legate about his vote. He had reasons for voting Samwise, and yet felt it necessary to explain why he was discounting everyone else. If Samwise was the only person he had real suspicions of, why go through the motions? Nogrod is now suddenly back to having Samwise as a possible wolf when he'd previously been a huh? Legate votes Samwise. Nogrod votes Samwise. Soo, from this. Lommy, Kitanna, Nogrod and Legate were the only ones who had any real contact with him or spoke much about him. Lommy I'm unsure about here, I don't think she interacted with him enough to bother looking at it in great depth. Kitanna I am inclined to think actually may have thought Samwise was Gifted and backed off once she'd figured that out. Legate is consistent and does find adequate reasons for suspicion, I don't like his vote explanation but that could just be his style. Nogrod I don't like for his flip-flopping. So out of the two that voted for him I would put Nog as the wolvish one, but I wouldn't discount Legate. Right, off to look at Kitanna, hopefully will get that done before dinner. Oh, and might I say having only just noticed - Lommy ... Kathie? Please no. Kat, Kath, Kate, Katy, Katherine, oy you, any of them, but please don't make me sound like some middle aged person trying to sound young! __________________ “If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.”

10-09-2008, 12:51 PM	#155
Kath Everlasting Whiteness Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Perusing the laminated book of dreams Posts: 4,585	Kitanna: Popped in with a quick hello. Lommy mentions automatic suspicion of anyone who just pops in with said quick hello. I understand that (and hey, liking me being the exception to the rule ), and she was summarising the grand total of 15 odd posts. Kitanna says can't get much out of Lommy because she's suspicious of everyone, and that while Legate is being helpful she thinks he is too bogged down in analysis of the narration. Nevertheless she thinks them both pretty innocent. Wonders if Samwise, Gwath and Gaunt were simply bandwaggoning. Gwath (I think jokingly) complains about Kitanna not appreciating his originality. Kitanna sort of () apologises to Gwath but reiterates her point - and it was a fair one. Nog says Kitanna's first post worries him as it's a 'here I am' one. Basically repeats her next post adding no information on why the mention of Lommy worries him. Says he didn't get why Legate would be the one to crack the narration when everyone else has looked at it too, despite the fact that Kitanna was clearly of the opinion that Legate pretty much started the analysis and the others followed on and that Legate had tried the hardest. This may not be correct but it was where she was coming from. Kitanna explains herself to Nogrod. Kitanna and Rune get into a bit of a muddle with Kitanna thinking Rune is questioning Lommy when in fact he's poking Nogrod. Legate questions the 'fodder' comment about Lommy - good questions actually. Samwise lists her as innocent. Explains her Lommy stuff to Legate. The explanation is pretty odd really. Which Legate then picks up on. Forms some options for the oddness, doesn't jump straight to assuming she's a wolf for it which speaks of restraint on his part. Careful wolf? Especially as he then completely clears her. I wonder if he thought the comment was a Seer-hint? Could be a nice double bluff if so. Lommy says Kitanna is the only one who has really been suspected which really isn't the case when you look at how people were treating Samwise. As well as that Lommy herself had been under some suspicion. It's just an odd thing to say it when it clearly wasn't the case. Says she'd rather Kitanna stayed alive - covering her bases because she planned to kill her that Night? Kitanna states her worries about Samwise's vote and disagrees with Legate about it having been a safe one. Also questions Gollum about why Lommy is suspicious. Nogrod says Kitanna feels innocent but leaves himself something of an out relating to the one post of hers he didn't like. Kitanna clears Samwise from her voting possibilities with good reason and continues to argue with Nogrod. Also says she's likely to random vote - quite possible that thanks to her having left herself with no suspicions and then voting randomly she signed her own death warrant. Votes me out of a hat. Ok, I'm thinking it's probable that out of whatever list the wolves had of possible kills last Night Kitanna would definitely have been on it due to her unfortunate tying up of loose ends in her penultimate post. However, I think Lommy's behaviour toward Kitanna was somewhat suspicious. The way Legate acted makes him seem more innocent to me, he was arguing solidly with good reasoning. Nog is being very 'oh it could be this but then' which I'm not sure is like him, and he seems to be misunderstanding a lot of things this game. Could be a tactic. I have to go eat now because my stomach has been complaining all through this post! I will return to look at toDay in the light of yesterDay and to vote. __________________ “If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.”

10-09-2008, 01:07 PM	#158
Gollum the Great Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The Pinnacle of my own might Posts: 391	Crud, gotta go! No explanation for my vote! ++Nogrod __________________ 'It just shows you how true it is that one-half the world doesn't knows how the other three-quarters lives.' Bertie, The Code of the Woosters, by P. G. Wodewouse

10-09-2008, 01:11 PM	#159
Groin Redbeard Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Facing the world's troubles with Christ's hope! Posts: 1,677	I can't find anything suspicious with Mith but Lommy on the other hand doesn't seem to be too helpful. As we see in posts 123 & 153 she is almost always defending herself or making short comments on the ideas of others but doesn't really go out on a limb by suspecting anyone. For the most part she seems content with criticizing others, but it doesn't even feel like she's doing it to really shape opinions. This either typical Thinlomien playing or a Were Warg playing it safe. EDIT: X'ed with Gollum __________________ I heard the bells on Christmas Day. Their old, familiar carols play. And wild and sweet the words repeatof peace on earth, good-will to men! ~Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

10-09-2008, 01:15 PM	#160
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,493	I've had a little time to read but no time to write up any decent sort of post. So just a quick vote before I have to leave: ++Brinn __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.