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Old 12-11-2003, 07:26 PM   #41
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I think we finally understand one another, Sir Squatter. <P>Seriously, that was a great post. While I may not share your views on the merits of these films, I largely agree with what you have said.<P>I only take issue with two points that you make:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> ... presenting a substantially altered version of an existing, published work and using it as a vehicle to sell action figures, role-play games, calendars and whatever other bewildering arrays of merchandise have been released on the back of the films. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I do not believe that these films, in their original conception (and largely in their execution) were intended as a vehicle for commercialisation, crass or otherwise. Yes, they were intended to make money, but then so are most films (and novels for that matter - Tolkien was quite peculiar in this regard). And all of the attendant commercialisation, ranging from action figures, calendars, visual guides and replica One Rings down to the Pringles and KFC endorsements, are an inevitable (albeit regrettable in the case of the aforementioned endorsements) accompaniment to films such as this nowadays. But the production team that worked on these films was, I believe, primarily motivated by the desire to make damn good films. My own opinon is that they succeeded.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I began to get annoyed only when new scenes were written ... That to me is arrogance: the attempt not just to film the book, warts and all, but to 'improve' it <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't believe that the scriptwriters and Jackson, as director, felt that they were "improving" on Tolkien's work. They were simply doing what they felt necessary to adapt it to the big screen. I can understand why they did so, even more so having just watched the documentary on translating the book for the screen on the TTT Extended Edition. The reasons that Jackson and Phillipa Boyens give for the changes that they made seem, in the main, wholly credible to me. Rather than thinking that they could tell a better story than Tolkien, I believe that they genuinely felt that the changes were necessary in order to bring that story to the big screen. Many will feel that they were wrong and that they would have done better by sticking closer to the original, but that is a matter of opinion and should not, in my view, be a reason to impugn their motives. It is clear to me, from watching the documentaries on the TTT Extended Edition, that Jackson and co do have the utmost respect and admiration for Tolkien's works. <P>You are right, of course, that we should not seek to pry into the privacy of the Tolkien family or speculate about the motives of its various members, particularly on the scant information that we have. My point was simply that, if I were Christopher Tolkien (and based on the limited information available), I would rather a film of the Hobbit be made by people that I do belleve have a lot of respect for the source material than by those who do not. While I do not wish for Christopher's death, the rights will become available at some point thereafter (in 30 years or so time at the latest, when the copyright runs out, but more likely sooner), by which time Jackson and co might no longer be in a position to take the project on. <P>Finally, just to pick up on the issue of Ian Holm's suitability to play Bilbo:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I disagree. I though he looked all right in the prologue. Besides, the continuity would be rather messed up if Bilbo changes appearance. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Believe me, I would have loved to see Ian Holm play the part. I will always identify him with Bilbo. He has taken the role a number of times, most notably (I think) in the BBC audio version. But he is in his seventies now. And given that Bilbo was 50 years old (the equivalent of 30 in human terms) when he set out with Thorin and company, I just cannot see it working. As for continuity, I am sure that there must be a younger actor with a physical resemblance who could play the role credibly. Any ideas anyone?
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Old 12-11-2003, 08:00 PM   #42
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As cool as it would be to see the Hobbit made into a movie im affraid Chritopher Tolkien holds the rights to do so and he has made it very clear that does not like Jackson's LOTR.He believies that the movie should follow the book to a t,which as nice as that would be,is just not possible,who would want to sit through a 15 hour movie?<P>I think one day it could be possible but not as soon as people would like to see it(what was it 2008?)but then again CT is 77,maybe when the day comes he passes away the person who takes his plase will sell the rights not unless they respect his wishes to not sell it.So we just have to wait and see what futre holds...
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Old 12-11-2003, 10:48 PM   #43
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I have been reading this discussion with great interest and one thing I think we should all remember is that Christopher Tolkien is his father's son. For sure that's where he gets his stubbornness; just read J.R.R.'s letters if you don't believe me.<P>I can completely understand where he's coming from, and I think his position is similar to what his father's would be, were he alive today (and oh that he were). He sold the rights to LOTR to New Line hoping they would stay as close as the book as humanly possible.<P>They released three (OK, almost three, not quite three yet) movies that are, without a doubt, masterpieces in filmmaking, visually appealing, and very close to the books. However, they also took many creative liberties with the books.<P>I'm not saying I hate the creative liberties they took. In a lot of cases I like them. It's impossible to take a novel, turn it into a movie, and have it come out looking exactly the same.<P>But Christopher Tolkien felt that the movies went too far, and I can see how someone in his position might think that. And he is thus understandably reluctant to give the rights to Hobbit to New Line as well, so that they can (as he sees it) do more butchery of another of his father's classics.<P>Personally? I would love to see PJ do The Hobbit. I think he would do a terrific job with it, and he would stay pretty close to the book too.<P>Obviously, however, C.J.R. Tolkien doesn't see it that way. And for the present, there doesn't seem to be anything anybody can do about it.
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Old 12-12-2003, 06:27 AM   #44
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> As it happens, they are good films, just imperfect adaptations of Tolkien. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>As it happens I can agree totally with Squatter's statement above. The difference between us, I think, is that he sees the latter half of the comment as a flaw whereas I don't.<P>I can't see where anyone has been gloating over the age and possible death of CT though. In fact, unless I am mistaken, the copyright laws pertain to the date of his father's death rather than his.<BR>Indeed I do not believe that I mentioned the possibility of CT dying at all.
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Old 12-12-2003, 07:48 AM   #45
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As it happens I can agree totally with Squatter's statement above. The difference between us, I think, is that he sees the latter half of the comment as a flaw whereas I don't. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I entirely agree, Eurytus. Imperfection is the essence of a book's translation into a movie. I have to give credit where credit is due, and Peter Jackson deserves credit in my mind for being the best-suited director at interpreting Tolkien's words (though, granted, changing them rather often) and turning them into grand, epic, thoroughly enjoyable movies.<P>On a lighter note, I do not think that Ian Holm could play Bilbo any more, much as I wish he could. Saucepan has pretty much laid out all the reasons why he cannot. As for who <I>would</I> play Bilbo...er... that is indeed a harder question to answer, since Ian Holm basically <I>is</I> Bilbo Baggins. It will be hard to find that same, nutty, simple, hilarious hobbitishness in a contemporary actor, if ever <I>The Hobbit</I> is translated to the silver screen. A relatively unknown actor would probably be best, rather like Dominic Monaghan and Billy Boyd. In the area of casting Peter Jackson has, for the most part, earned my trust, so I suppose if New Line ever gets the rights we have only to wait and see!<P>Cheers,<BR>Angmar
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Old 12-12-2003, 09:51 AM   #46
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The role of Bilbo if ever the filming of The Hobbit will take place should be given to an unknown actor.<BR>I understand why CT feels betrayed by Newline in terms of them not following his fathers book and inventing new twists to the storyline. I felt let down by many scenes and changes when watching the Fellowship of the Rings, but thanks to the excellent filming and marvellous directing from PJ, I forgave him by the second movie and I am looking forward to seeing all these endings the previews are talking about.<P>It is trust that a movie cannot follow a book to the T. Some liberties should be taken. It actually hurts me to say this as I don't entirelly forgive all PJs changes.<P>I however would love to see PJ direct the Hobbit, but I wonder if he would be willing to direct it, as it would be less of a challenge after the LOTR.<P>" As long as he does not over-feature celebs like he did for Liv Tyler", my biggest grudge.
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Old 12-12-2003, 10:09 AM   #47
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I however would love to see PJ direct the Hobbit, but I wonder if he would be willing to direct it, as it would be less of a challenge after the LOTR.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>PJ does wish to direct <I>The Hobbit</I>, as evidenced by this quote in the initial post of this thread:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Despite his exhaustion, Jackson is not resting on his laurels and said if complex rights issues can be resolved he would like to direct "The Hobbit", J.R.R. Tolkien's prequel to the "Rings" trilogy set some 50 years earlier. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My guess is Peter Jackson would welcome a less-challenging project than the <I>Lord of the Rings</I> trilogy, although certainly making a hobbit movie would be no less challenging than each of the individual LotR movies was.<p>[ 11:10 AM December 12, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]
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Old 12-12-2003, 03:06 PM   #48
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Poor Christopher...I would be upset too not just because of the "adaptations" of his father's work, but all that came with it. The marketing, the merchandise the plays(After the fellowship came out a stream of amaturish impressice plays followed and everyone of them terrible) I for one loved the animated Hobbit to itti bitti bits(I'm not that picky when it comes to animations) and I would love to see Jackson's dream realised. I don't see why there can't be a comprimise between the two wizards. Jackson should direct the movie so that it remains consistent with the LOTR, but Tolkien should be there as an overseer. I don't understand why he wasn't with the project from the begining if it was so important. Jackson used conceptual artists Howe and [darn I can't remember the other's name] to keep the sets and scenery true enough(and it was pretty flawless, I thought) why can't Tolkien lend his carful eye to the completion of the Hobbit? It would make both him and his fans happy.
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Old 12-12-2003, 03:26 PM   #49
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>why can't Tolkien lend his carful eye to the completion of the Hobbit? It would make both him and his fans happy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't think Jackson would want him. Seriously, it's unlikely that Christopher would give him much freedom if he was standing alongside him (can you imagine CT allowing PJ to change Faramir or cut the Scouring? Probably not...), & that would limit PJ's creativity. I doubt he would want him around to hinder his 'interpretation' of the books.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Jackson used conceptual artists Howe and [darn I can't remember the other's name] to keep the sets and scenery true enough(and it was pretty flawless, I thought)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>John Howe & Alan Lee.
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Old 12-13-2003, 12:02 AM   #50
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Something about this discussion of the rights of Mr. Christopher Tolkien and the filming of his father's stories reminds me of the debate in "The Council of Elrond." <P>How ironic that a story created to establish a mythology illustrating and celebrating the need for forgiveness, faith, companionship, and Love has, in the hands of "vox populi" become instead an excuse for condemnation, mistrust, and factionalism. <P>Makes me want to go read the book . . . again.
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Old 12-13-2003, 08:43 AM   #51
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Makes me want to go read the book . . . again.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hear, hear!
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Old 12-13-2003, 02:32 PM   #52
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"Makes me want to go read the book . . . again."<P>PJ can have that effect on one!
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Old 12-13-2003, 02:41 PM   #53
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Something about this discussion of the rights of Mr. Christopher Tolkien and the filming of his father's stories reminds me of the debate in "The Council of Elrond." <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I just hope we don't have to go put together a Fellowship to destroy the One Copy of the LotR Trilogy, deep in the heart of Peter Jackson's kingdom. Somehow, a Quest to find the Trashcan of Doom inside Mt. Doom (i.e. WETA Digital studio) doesn't sound quite practical, if you take my meaning.
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Old 12-14-2003, 12:01 AM   #54
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Finwe writes: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Somehow, a Quest to find the Trashcan of Doom inside Mt. Doom (i.e. WETA Digital studio) doesn't sound quite practical, if you take my meaning. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>LOL. Erm, yes sir, I take your meaning!
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Old 12-14-2003, 12:51 AM   #55
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We (devoted adherents of the philosophy, minutia, etc., as laid down by JRR Tolkien) can understand C Tolkien, in never being satisfied with these films ... or with any films, I'd argue, that could realistically be made well in terms of cinematic standards.<P>I'm just glad they (3 separate motion pictures) were done now, with DVDs and so forth, and not in the `60s, `70s or `80s. Times change, of course, in terms of markets, technology, tastes and so forth, and perhaps truer versions would be possible 10 or 20 years from now, but it has been long enough in coming.<P>Why this reference to time? … because JRR Tolkien's genius and work belong to the ages and to all people. It is not even C. Tolkien's job to be "dogmatist-in-charge."<P>JRR Tolkien's post-LotR-publication letters show that he was eager for film adaptations for popular exposure, as well as financial reasons. [“Stanley U. & I have agreed on our policy: Art or Cash. Either very profitable terms indeed; or absolute author’s veto on objectionable features or alterations.”—Letters. #202 to Christopher and Faith Tolkien (emphasis in the original)] C Tolkien failed on both counts, it might seem, as a result of the Bashki decision, and regrets may be part of the issue with him now. JRR Tolkien was also well aware of the need for severe recasting of his huge story to make a movie out of it. Nevertheless, it is very sobering to compare the effort and sensitivity of Peter Jackson and crew with the stupidity from Hollywood that JRR Tolkien encountered in his lifetime.<P>The commercialism, however crass, does sustain and spread his work, and frankly, I find most of it to be sort of endearing, but it is also a reality of the need for money and marketing to make these films successful, for which they could not otherwise be made, and I’m sure much of it delights plenty of small children, as well.<P>The reality of the stories is that they are adventure epics. Despite the presence of so much more, the LotR plot does revolve around battles and exciting encounters. Hence, you have an action-packed film. How much more you can do with that as part of the screen-play is quite limited; that's the genre, in which one is stuck with, and I'm glad that these elements can be pulled off with a maximum of design, realism, skill and technology, not too mention decent writing, excellent acting, beautiful cinematography, and so forth. Poorly done costumes and goblin make-up would not have gone down well.<P>But it is all incredibly expensive, requiring confidence in mass-audience appeal, including female characters and relationships. Most literate folks, really don't read books, they wait for the movie to come out, and then perhaps, they read the book. This fact was certainly not lost on JRR Tolkien.<P>My biggest problem with the films remains (merely) the somewhat cartoon-like aspects at the Council of Elrond, Moria and in Fangorn. They could have been more sophisticatedly rendered. Despite Peter Jackson's brilliance at direction and visual impact, the screenwriters are not great ones, but if they had been, they would have likely sought even more to make their own artistic mark, and then there'd be clashes not only with the books but also with the Director, and so on. Life is full of trade-offs and non-ideal circumstances.<P>The substantive additions (“slight deviation” as facetiously said in the EE commentary) to the storyline are for me largely defensible in terms of what JRR Tolkien implied in the Appendices, other writings or earlier conceptualization that while not right for the book have value in a screenplay. It's all just Art, sub-creation, and not really canonical in a religious sense, notwithstanding the altar in the Barrow.<P>Much of the other things that bother us about the films are the unavoidable simplifications, abridgements, omissions, compression of time, re-juxtaposition of lines, scenes & places, visually driven renderings, composition of characters, changes of emphasis, and other such devices to adapt a story to screen<P>Also, in spite of the lavish budget and time afforded this project, both constraints were felt, restricting the filmmaker's ability to experiment and takes risks, and ultimately they had to work with what they had and deliver a product, which C Tolkien should recognize from the published Silmirillion, which I feel he and others regret overmuch.<P>Thirdly, this is a gargantuan undertaking. Neither any Tolkien, you, nor I could ever hope to do it, but humans, who make mistakes, plain & simple, did it. If they have an overwrought concern for maintaining dramatic tension, then that is one of the weaknesses, but they bring a lot of counter-balancing strengths to the table.<P>Moreover is the challenge of holding an audience’s attention. Most people do not like to read too many words at once; the majority will not yet have read The Lord of the Rings’ thousand-plus pages (much less recently or multiple times); they are easily confused, and they always resent being confused or having to think very hard, and will tune out immediately. This brings me to something that I find very troubling, and possibly C Tolkien does too: To keep the issues clear and the Ring’s significance obvious, the Films blatantly depict the Ring as an aggressively, overtly evil force (notwithstanding that even Film-Bilbo cheerfully carried it around for 60 years), and Men (per Isildur), are ‘easily corrupted’ and lusting of power (only Film-Aragorn is really different, but in contrast to the books, he’s on a markedly anti-power trip!).<P>This films’ treatment of the Ring & Men is not, of course, really inconsistent with themes from the book, but it sadly distorts JRR Tolkien’s message about humanity, morality and mortality. But to capture even a portion of the requisite nuance and breadth on these issues would mean an entirely different type of film, with long dialogue and cheap action sequences. Also at work is present-day political correctness. For “Men” read “white males.” (Even the books’ emphasis on nature and simplicity is given the decidedly and misleadingly “green” gloss of late 20th Century environmentalism) Whether the filmmakers were wrong in these regards, and couldn’t have found less simplistic and truer techniques to communicate about the Ring and keep it central to the story, it’s hard to say, given the constraints noted above. But even in vain retrospect, regarding “what I’d have done” or “how I think it should have been done,” I can’t really come up with a good alternative that wouldn’t have been lost on the average moviegoer (poor souls).<P>Finally, the filmmakers are artists to one degree or another, and JRR Tolkien might have appreciated the need to let them follow their own inclinations, talents and ideas. Micromanagers everywhere forget that when competent folks take on big jobs, control of the means, process and outcomes needs to be relented. Everyone has a different vision of The Lord of the Rings, and for someone to sit back and say that something isn’t right (now that it’s presented to them) is not exercising a positive influence. An author should either write the screenplay and be part of the project, or let go. I’m just glad the Films are not filled with cheesy Gallic moustaches or stereotypic Viking helmets.<P>We’re he alive today, JRR Tolkien would hopefully not be so arrogant as to exert inappropriate control. A Film is an entirely unique creation unto itself, however much it is based on another source. The Harry Potter movies show how unsatisfying an overly faithful adaptation can be, and they were feasible as such, in my opinion, only because of the film-friendly nature of those books and the first two installments’ relative brevity.<P>The Lord of the Rings (at least the first two parts) are not at all film-friendly, and it is a gorgeous but nevertheless complex and sprawling story, and again, I count my blessings that the ultimate extended edition DVD(s) will provide up to 11 hours of quality-made picture time, which is absolutely incredible. To render the books in truer form would necessitate at least another four hours and a fourth theatrical release, which in retrospect New Line might have done, but beforehand, the company was taking a tremendous gamble in bankrolling three, 180-minute productions at once.<P>If JRR Tolkien shared any of the perspective that I describe above, I feel that he would have been extremely appreciative and pleased with such treatment of his work. Obviously, C Tolkien knows him better than anyone else alive now, but JRR Tolkien left this world over 30 years ago. Busy with his own career and family, C Tolkien was plainly not very familiar with his father’s work on Middle-Earth during the final 20 years, as revealed in The History of Middle-Earth and the many things that he only lately uncovered. In short, no one knows what JRR Tolkien would have thought today, and ultimately C Tolkien is just another fan with his (however superiorly informed) viewpoints. And to some extent it doesn’t matter; note that if it weren’t for Rayner Unwin dedicated efforts to move JRR Tolkien along, as shown in Letters, The Lord of the Rings books could very likely have never seen the light of day.<P>So, obviously I would like to see the Tolkien Estate and the New Line/Peter Jackson folks come together and work out a deal. The Hobbit seems rather film-friendly to me, and I think it and JRR Tolkien’s memory deserve to see it also made into a high-quality, live action and widely seen motion picture. For better or worse, I feel that any film of The Hobbit needs to be consistent with the look and feel of Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings.<P>Here we must accept that New Line and Jackson now own (in the most general way) part of the JRR Tolkien legacy. Whether this is part of C Tolkien’s problems, who can say, but they have arguably expanded that legacy much more still. I don’t see what New Line and Jackson could do for the Tolkien Estate other than to be understanding and a bit contrite. They pulled off what no one could do for decades, except for the animated disaster, for which we can thank the Tolkien Estate. Though, Bashki did some good things, which Jackson copied more than he admits.<P>This doesn’t mean that Peter Jackson would actually need to direct The Hobbit, much less that it would need the same script-writing team, but the design and other folks would need to be reassembled to a great degree, and Peter Jackson involved as producer to maintain the consistency, that I find indispensable as a film package. And the Tolkien Estate could have a consultative role, but C Tolkien or whoever would need to be realistic about the appropriate extent of that role or share of the proceeds.<P>As for anything from the First Age, a rather different look and feel might be quite good, and those stories offer plenty of latitude for writers and filmmakers in terms of dialogue and other things, which cannot be directly compared with the literary work. Hopefully, they are not really off limits. I’d like to see Beren and Lúthien on screen.<P>I don’t really understand the whole thing about the rights to The Hobbit or the Tolkien family dynamics described above in this thread. Evidently, despite the Rankin|Bass animated Hobbit for television, the rights were retained by, reverted to or otherwise recouped by the Tolkien Estate. It seems unbelievable that C Tolkien could allegedly be so estranged from his son because the latter likes the Films and the former is unhappy with them. But someone might best be careful lest he “Inherit the Wind.”<P>I have (in addition to movie tickets) spent nearly $200 in terms of DVDs and other film stuff, and I’ll gladly spend more, regardless of the things that trouble me, but ultimately my complaints are vain; there is nothing I can do.<P>C Tolkien differs from us here. In a negative sense at least, he can do something by not releasing the rights to make films based on other of his father’s genius. Clearly, I don’t think that serves his father’s legacy or humanity, but maybe that’s just me.<P>C Tolkien may also regret the control that he forfeited, not to mention the vast sums of money involved; hundreds of millions of dollars are not so easily overlooked, even if the Tolkien Estate is presumably quite well endowed, in no small thanks now to the films’ effect on book sales. Of course, he did one smart thing, by quitting his job and devoting himself to producing his father’s written, albeit unfinished, work. Too bad his father was not so prescient 25 years earlier. But if C Tolkien so understands his father mind and vision, then why in the process of collecting and cataloguing the father’s prodigious writings did he not take the bold editorial steps to put it all together into a final, fully fleshed out and truly complete version of The Silmirillion and associated Legendarium? … as his father did wish to do.<P>C Tolkien has the talent, understanding and natural right to have done so, it would seem. Maybe, he just wasn’t so inclined or was restrained by the literary provisions of his father’s Will. Instead, he embarked on an equally challenging and probably more laborious task of the 12-volume History of Middle-Earth. But in this case, he assumes the role of the detached academic (for the most part) who is merely presenting a study of his father’s work. In a sense, he made a choice not to contribute to the popular and widely read legacy of his father (even if the HoME books have become fairly good sellers), but instead he sought to heighten respect of his father’s work from a more academic and philosophical perspective.<P>To this, movie-making, even if sensitive and sophisticated, contributes little, but I believe you can have both, and the bulk of moviegoers and lovers of the erudite are different audiences indeed. Perhaps, after all his work, C Tolkien may take it all a little too seriously.<P>Returning to speculation about The Hobbit film, I think it could quite closely follow the book. It could and should include more extensive back-story in terms of the Necromancer, assault on Dol Guldor and the pre-Unexpected Party story. Hugo Weaving and Ian McKellen should reprise their roles, and Orlando Bloom might be a minor part of the Woodland Realm stuff. Some elements and dwarves might have to be lost, but it is really a very compact story, and the double climax of Smaug’s destruction and the concluding battle could be cleverly done, not unlike the first Star Wars movie.<P>Ian Holm is a tough one. In the prologue they show him somewhat younger looking, maybe, hard to say, although later in the story it is indicated that like in the books, the Ring prevented him from aging, but the filmmakers may have wanted some contrast, rather then trying to push the non-aging point, in order to reinforce the impression that a long period of time has gone by. Peter Jackson like many filmmakers is uncomfortable with screen-play element that are not contained within in continuous stretch of current time, and indeed jumps in time often appear rather artificial and awkward on film. But given the physical demands and the fact that he is only supposed to be the equivalent of someone in his late 30s, the Bilbo role in The Hobbit would need to be played by a younger actor. Hopefully, it will happen.
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Old 12-15-2003, 09:49 PM   #56
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I'm somewhat confused over the whole rights issue. If Christopher Tolkien didn't sell them, then how did Rankin-Bass get the rights to it anyway?
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Old 01-06-2004, 05:50 AM   #57
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The position often stated regarding the filming of the Hobbit on this threads is often misleading and wrong. It is often stated that perhaps had PJ been more faithful to the books in his films then maybe CT would have given permission for him to film the Hobbit.<P>This is wrong in two ways. Firstly and lets be honest here, from the information we have it seems clear that CT would never had been happy with the Hobbit being filmed. He was against the films when they were optioned, he was against them during the planning and filming and has been against them ever since. Indeed I cannot recall a time when he was ever not against them. (although I do recall his father being less stringent when the family were not as well off as they are now)<BR>Given the situation described it is unclear exactly how PJ could have filmed the book in a way that would have satisfied CT. Lets be clear CT was not in favour of the films when he (and everyone else bar PJ) knew nothing about how they would be filmed. He did not change his tune when 2 world respected artists (well in Tolkien circles in any case) were brought onto the production. PJ could have included a peon of praise to JRRT at the start and finish of every film. He could have filmed them as one unabridged and unaltered 25 hour film and it is still extremely unlikely that CT would have revised his “un-filmable” opinion.<P>However, happily for the rest of the movie going world who are happy with the films, CT has no say whatsoever as to whether the Hobbit gets made into a film. The problem actually lies between New Line who have first refusal on making the film and Universal Artists who own the distribution rights. Until those two companies come to an arrangement there will be no film.<P>However, since PJ has stated that he would like to make the Hobbit, you have people like Ian McKellen and Howard Shore campaigning for the film to be made, and since any film based on Tolkien and directed by the (now big time director Peter Jackson) will make an absolute fortune it is practically inconceivable for the film not to be made. It is only a question of time.
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Old 01-07-2004, 05:18 PM   #58
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That all depends, Kronos. If Christopher Tolkien does actually hold the rights to the Hobbit (I'm not entirly clear on this), & if the movies can't be made without his go-ahead (not entirly sure on this, either), than I don't think there's a very good chance that they will be made. He's no doubt well enough off that he has no real need for the money, & he probably understands that a lot of the money it would make would be off of the type of cheap mass-merchandising that would make his father roll over in his grave. I have no doubt that if 'CT' doesn't want the Hobbit converted to a movie, it probably won't be. But this whole post is based on the assumption that he holds the rights & the 'go-ahead' needed to do the movie.
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Old 01-07-2004, 05:55 PM   #59
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> But this whole post is based on the assumption that he holds the rights & the 'go-ahead' needed to do the movie. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I had originally understood that Tolkien's Estate held the film rights to the Hobbit, but more recent reports that I have read suggest that Kronos is right and that the dispute is between the two companies. And that seems to me to be more credible scenario, given that the film rights to LotR were sold by the Estate. <P>And, assuming that this is correct, then I would agree that it is almost certain that the film will be made in the near future. Although, if Jackson is to make it, then he will not be doing so until after he has finished up on King Kong.<P>Edit: Still not sure how they will get round the lack of <I>any</I> female characters, though. Perhaps they will just have to bite the bullet on that one.<p>[ 6:57 PM January 07, 2004: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]
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Old 01-07-2004, 08:34 PM   #60
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Doesn't the fact that an animated Hobbit was made speak to Chris Tolkien not owning the rights to The Hobbit?<P>H.C.
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Old 01-07-2004, 08:54 PM   #61
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True, HC, for some reason I hadn't thought of that . Well, if Saucepan Man is right (& I have no doubt he is), then I also have no doubt that PJ will get ahold of the Hobbit. Lets just hope he doesn't try to force any female characters in there. He's in a fix without them, but he could do a lot more harm then good by creating some.
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Old 01-08-2004, 02:31 AM   #62
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> That all depends, Kronos. If Christopher Tolkien does actually hold the rights to the Hobbit (I'm not entirly clear on this), & if the movies can't be made without his go-ahead (not entirly sure on this, either), than I don't think there's a very good chance that they will be made. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I thought that I was pretty clear in my post that he did not have the rights or any say in the go-ahead of the films.<P>But in case I wasn't, he doesn't in either case.
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Old 01-08-2004, 07:05 PM   #63
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I would love to see The Hobbit becoming a movie and it would be nice to see actors return.<BR>Too bad this rights thing isn't going to well. It is pretty serious from everything I read. However i am still going to keep my fingers crossed.<BR>
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Old 01-09-2004, 04:33 AM   #64
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Man, this thread has me rolling in the aisles. Some of you folks are <I>really</I> over-analyzing this thing. $$ will make it happen, in spite of "protecting this", "presevering that", "legendary stubborness", etc...etc... If money were to go up against the One Ring itself, I'd take my chances on the former. There will be a Hobbit movie, it's just a case of when, not if.<P>I'm sorry, but people being so sensitive to the eventual death of C. Tolkien is another thing that has me laughing. Cripes! There are a half million things to be bothered about in this world, yet some people are getting incensed over the perception that some folks want the old man dead so his precious (no pun intended) Hobbit manuscript can be snatched from his cold, lifeless fingers.<P>The movies kept the essence of the books intact in spite of the alterations from the storyline. To say otherwise is a classic case of not seeing the forest for the trees. If J.R.R. Tolkien had been a film director in our time period, and not an author, I wonder how his vision of LOTR would have been altered from what we see in the books?
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Old 01-09-2004, 11:32 PM   #65
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I just read on TORn yesterday that there might be new hope for getting the rights to the Hobbit. The article was a little short but it sounded very optimistic.
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Old 01-10-2004, 01:55 AM   #66
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>However, happily for the rest of the movie going world who are happy with the films, CT has no say whatsoever as to whether the Hobbit gets made into a film. The problem actually lies between New Line who have first refusal on making the film and Universal Artists who own the distribution rights. Until those two companies come to an arrangement there will be no film.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, this is actually right, from what I have heard recently. Christopher Tolkien and the Tolkien Estate does not own the film rights to The Hobbit, and additionally they did not sell the rights to LOTR directly to New Line either as some people have been saying (the rights to the films were sold years ago to Saul Zaentz, a producer, who also produced the animated films, and who acquired the rights before Tolkien died). The main conflict, and the reason a Hobbit film is not going straight into production is that United Artists (aka MGM) owns the rights to make the film, and New Line just recently acquired the rights to distribute the films. Of course both studios really want to make these films (New Line wants to continue their most popular series, and MGM could really use a hit film right now, because they have not been doing well recently, and are basically almost to the point of being sold to the highest bidder). But it looks like, most likely we will see a Hobbit film from PJ, and the people at New Line. If they fork over enough money for the rights (which they will probably eventually do) The Hobbit film will probably go into pre-production after King Kong is done.<P>I think the main reason that Christopher Tolkien is speaking out now is that it is just a good time to try to change public opinion with all these rumors gong around, and to rally the group of die-hard fans who have been sadden by the films. I appreciate both sides of this argument though, and I understand where both groups are coming from, and I really don’t know (after reading all of this) where I stand. I would actually like to see a Hobbit film, but then I don’t want it to stray as far away from the main storyline as the LOTR films have. I love the LOTR films and I wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for them. But now after reading the books multiple times, I find that the films really don’t show the true spirit of the story, and I find that much of the “quietness” of the books that I appreciated is gone from the film because it is considered “boring”.<P>It will be interesting to see what is going to happen in the next couple of years though. But I don’t think that Christopher Tolkien is being an enemy because he is speaking out against the films. This is a free world where we should be allowed to say whatever we would like, and he is just expressing his true feelings. And for me that is truly a refreshing thing
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Old 01-10-2004, 07:27 AM   #67
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> But I don’t think that Christopher Tolkien is being an enemy because he is speaking out against the films. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>But to be fair, beyond all the people on this site saying that CT is against the films I have seen very few (if any) direct quotes from the man himself.<P>To be frank I suspect that he is not against the films per se. He is more against the attendant hype and therefore focus on Tolkien that goes with them.<P>I suspect that the bottom line is that he is a very private man and would simply like to be left alone.<P>Oh, and to continue making money from Tolkien's legacy of course.
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Old 01-10-2004, 09:29 AM   #68
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This is so tired. How many times will we debate the changes made in these movies. Even if you are bothered by the changes (Even if your Are Christopher Tolkien) how can these changes stand in the way of your enjoyment of the world on screen. Overall who could have made a better adaptation dealing with the hollywood pressure and common movie tendencies you need to include to make a wide audience appeal to the work. The goal of the movies is two fold, profit and art. Don't let the profit aspect stand in the way of the Art that was brought forth. In saying this I understand The many concerns Chris and BKT's (book first Tolkienities). I will ackknowledge even the moves made that seemed questionable or a strech. None of those changes is enough to discount the sweeping epic that was created. PJ opened the world of middle earth to me, introduced me to Tolkien. I'm glad he did. I Love the Silm just as much as the LOTR.
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Old 01-10-2004, 09:33 AM   #69
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before I forget, If the Hobbit were to be made, Ian Mckellian to me is the essential bridge. His Gandalf the Grey is untouchable in my eyes. How about a Radagast cameo in Hobbit? I'm sure he can be fit in.
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Old 04-06-2004, 03:23 PM   #70
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Tolkien The Hobbit in 2005!

I just found out that PJ is going to start filming The Hobbit next year! Andy Serkis and Ian Mckellan will be in it, but I don`t know about Ian Holm and Hugo Weaving. You can read about it @ www.theonering.net.
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Old 04-06-2004, 04:13 PM   #71
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Horrah!

I wonder how PJ will handle Smaug...I'm sure that he will come up with a wonderful-looking dragon, but will it talk? I can see a talking dragon looking a little cheesy if it isn't done right, but a mute Smaug would take a lot of plot (and humor) out of the story. Hroom....
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Old 04-06-2004, 04:40 PM   #72
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Um... where exactly on the TORn page do you see that? All I'm finding is the Call to Pens.... which isn't entirely the same thing.
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Old 04-06-2004, 07:38 PM   #73
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I do hope this news is for real for I have seen some very cruel April fools jokes lately and many them to do with the Hobbit. I am not sure about Ian Holm, but Hugo Weaving will probably be in there unless PJ decides to cut out the Rivendel part completely. He better not for how are they to know where they are going without Elrond's advice about the moon runes.
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Old 04-06-2004, 11:48 PM   #74
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I think though that the date that TheOneRing.net talked about (2005) is just a date that they threw out as part of their big April Fools joke. I still think that there is nothing else set in stone, and in addition I have heard nothing about New Line and MGM solving their differences, so I don't think anything is final. But I do think that if a Hobbit movie does go into production sometime soon, it will probably start around that date (or most likely a little bit later, 2005 is only next year time does go by fast).
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Old 04-07-2004, 10:42 AM   #75
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Quote:
how are they to know where they are going without Elrond's advice about the moon runes.
Don't you think PJ would cut out that as well if he decided to skip Rivendell?
He is known for taking certain liberties in his screen version of LotR. Why wouldn't he change things in the Hobbit then?
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Old 04-07-2004, 11:58 AM   #76
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I assume they'll bring back Hugo Weaving if they have the Rivendell scene in there. Ian Something is Gandalf, and Andy Serkis for Gollum is a definite(I have sudden amnesia and can't remember how to spell his name, but you all know who I'm talking about)

Ian Holm may be a bit too old to play a young hobbit, though. I dont know how old he really is, but Bilbo's supposed to be about the same age as Frodo when they go on thier respective adventures.
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Old 04-07-2004, 12:50 PM   #77
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Well, TORn says his birthday is September 12, 1931.... Which makes him 72. That's a little old to play a hobbit fifty-year-old, granted! I think it would be a shame if he didn't do it, though.
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Old 04-07-2004, 04:54 PM   #78
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White-Hand Thread Merged

There are already a number of threads here dealing with the possibility of Jackson directing a film version of the Hobbit, so I am merging this thread in with one of those.

Read up and you can find all sorts of opinions on the likelihood (and desirability) of the film being made, potential changes to the story and views on who should play some of the roles.

And here's another thread discussing possible casting:

Cast the First Hobbit
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Old 04-07-2004, 06:45 PM   #79
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Actually, the guy who played Farmer Maggot ("There's no Bagginses here. They're all up in Hobbiton.") reminds me very much of a younger Bilbo.


Could they not (as in the FotR party scene) have an older Bilbo played by Ian Holm narrating his adventure to a captive young audience?
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Old 04-26-2004, 04:34 PM   #80
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Oddwen: Actually, I think there's a much better chance of them just going with Ian Holm again. Although that all depends on how long it takes them to start filming the movie...he's no spring chicken .
If he is going to be 72, he'd have to do a really good job, especially if they want him to act considerably younger than the 50 he is in the books, like they did with Frodo.

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