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[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

[I]This [Your/Our?] song's unfinished

As a stand-alone, I would probably say "The". But since they will be discussing the Song of Creation later on, this might be revisited depending on how heavy you want this reference to point to the same thing.

Though - reading onwards, if you are referring to the same song with "there's much within it", maybe "This song". Leaving it vague as to whether it is the Duel's song or the Noldor's song.

Originally Posted by Hui

Stronger than love's power. [I know it's an extra downbeat]

It works, as "po'er".

Originally Posted by Hui

Rise in song-spoken glory

This is BEAUTIFUL.

Originally Posted by Hui

And golden and silver trees [Sorry, I had to!]
Bind death in their boughs.

^.^

The only thing I can point against is... silVER trees. :/
And gold and silver-leaved Trees, maybe?

Originally Posted by Hui

And bitter curses become songs!

... Curses become songs! Wonderful.

[Galadriel55]

I am not too happy with how it sounds at the moment, but I am posting it to put it out there as a draft in progress, and I would need to save it in some form anyways. This melody is the same as Luthien's theme, however Galadriel ditches the rhyming scheme. She rhymes lines #3/4 consistently, and has an inconsistent #1/5. I took it in my head that I could improve the rhyming scheme and at the very least have a good 1/5, but evidently I have learned nothing from The Silmarillion. I got to the point where I was gonna ditch the 1/5 rhymes altogether and just go for good imagery, but then told myself it might be worth hammering at that nail for a little while longer before I give up.




Ours - the harbours of the sky-bound ships *
Yours - the greeting of the coming dawn
Where stronger than all chains and bonds
Beyond all oaths, all words above [above all words?]
A single Law to rule the world: the Law of Love

Ours - the salt of sea-spray on the wind
Yours - the love that's larger than the world
And if in this new world's account [eeeeh, maybe?]
Love is the only Law that counts
Our tale was nothing but a brief prologue to it!

Ours - of ships departed fading shade [the shadow of departed ships --> no rhyme]
Yours - the ringing grasses of the spring
And if in this new world's account
Love is the only Law that counts
We were but dawn, while you're the light of sun-filled day!

Ours - is the safekeeping of your dreams **
Yours - the vast and dazzling universe
And even then, in shadowed hall
You'll take from mightiest of all
Your final gift, your greatest gift, the Gift of Love! [of Love itself?]


* Is that better for not quite literal sky flying? Or "sky-borne"? Also, it could just be "the harbours of the sky-ships ?", where there is another 1 syllable filler at the end. If they can be described as "tall", I could rhyme that with the last line, "love above all" or something.

** "For us - to stand on guard of your dreams [/sleep]". I LOVE that line! Does this stanza seem to you to almost be breaking the fourth wall in a way, going meta: the mythical characters guarding readers from nightmares, guiding them on the "right path", and saying that the readers' story still lies ahead, so go conquer the universe! Galadriel is talking to B&L, and she is talking to the readers; the Elves kept the ancient evils of the world at bay to make it habitable for mortals and became a guiding light in their legends, and the characters become legends and guides for readers; she is referring to both Morgoth and Mandos and whatever drives fate on its path - and I don't think I am doing it justice.

[Huinesoron]

Right, I've found the time to go through Galadriel's prologue. I was going to post the whole thing for a line-by-line breakdown, but... I don't need to, it's very good. ^_^

Tell, O Heather, tell me the truth
Green must grow your summer attire?

'Does green grow' really jars; I think this flows better.

I've changed 'beloved' to 'belov'd' throughout, just to make the pronunciation clear.

The 'Look, my dear sister, look' line catches me out every time. I'm not sure why, I can tell it scans, I just can't manage to sing it.

Sunset behind us dies, in front of us - another day. - how about 'the coming day' or 'the dawning day'? The former implies 'we'll get there eventually', the latter 'I can already see it'.

I've flagged these two lines:

After bitter Fall.

Skillfully adorned
Every burning word.

Just to say I really like them.

I feel like this one:

But at the end of Loss, in land without [] grief or pain

Has a missing downbeat in there. I may be wrong, though? If it is missing, we could reinsert it with in land released from grief and pain, or devoid of grief and pain?

Going back to your notes now:

-'Dared' in this context is as in 'braved to'. As in, 'they dared the Grinding Ice'. I think it works.

-I liked 'foresee in thought', so good call. (I think you've used 'Ou-ur' in one line, then 'Aar' in the second? Not sure, but I feel like there's a downbeat missing if you pronounce them both as one syllable.)

-I think 'Why was so appealing your prize?' works well; Galadriel acknowledges that it was, but from her later viewpoint can't see why.

-'Master hearts' is good.

-I agree that the 'banner' version isn't as good as the one you went for (though I love the imagery).

-If we really wanted to switch to 'snows', there's always:

How amid the shadows and snow
He could hear your call from below?

Which adds the ambiguity of whether 'below' is the dungeons of Tol Sirion, the pits of Angband, or the Halls of Mandos. It does lose some lovely imagery, though.

-An alternate:

Was the rustle of your wings
Mightier than kings?
Black and dreadful wings!

Or perhaps:

Was your wingtips' silent beat
Stronger than my grief?
All-consuming grief

Or something like that. (The flippin' wingtips have made it back in again! I'm never going to be rid of them.)

-I like 'restless'.

-They do sound a bit like they're getting married, but that's kind of an eternal problem with duets. No problems here.

-The mark/track rhyme works.

Glancing quickly over your comments on the opening of the Duel: 'reveals' works fine, I knew the 'A' hung over but decided it was worthwhile, and I accept the 'gold and silver-leaved' amend.

I know it's quite cheeky to inject the Trees into a song from Beleriand, but a) the Lay of Leithian/Silm verse clearly implies that Finrod is singing of Valinor before the Fall, b) there's a double meaning, because the Trees themselves are now dead ("bind death in their boughs"), and c) there are both golden mellyrn and the White Tree Galathilion in Aman, so it's technically true anyway. Also d) I really wanted to.

On the sky-ships: I realised last night that it's not (just) about the Straight Road: It's Earendil. In "Truth", Finrod associates them with the 'golden dust', which in Silm terms can only be the jewelled dust that covers the Mariner when he walks through Tirion.

I like this interpretation; it makes Finrod's last lines his final prophesy, encompassing the success of the Quest, the fate of Beren and Luthien's line (in Elwing), and the destiny of the Silmaril. And Galadriel, of course, has a whole thing going on with the light of Earendil, so it works for her too.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Thanks for all the comments! They're great!

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Tell, O Heather, tell me the truth
Green must grow your summer attire?

'Does green grow' really jars; I think this flows better.

Agreed. I wasn't a fan of that word combination.

Originally Posted by Hui

The 'Look, my dear sister, look' line catches me out every time. I'm not sure why, I can tell it scans, I just can't manage to sing it.

It is purposefully a little out of rhythm, to match what they've done with the Russian text (they reverse the downbeat on the first two-syllable word). Look-my-dear flows as a triplet. But maybe we can flag it as something to review by skype?

Also, I was considering "Look, sister", which sits in the rhythm very comfortably, but 1) I need syllables and 2) it sounds a little menacing. Look here, sister, this is how it's gonna be.

Originally Posted by Hui

Sunset behind us dies, in front of us - another day. - how about 'the coming day' or 'the dawning day'? The former implies 'we'll get there eventually', the latter 'I can already see it'.

Agreed. But I can't decide between these options, they are both very good and have their own appeal.

Originally Posted by Hui

Skillfully adorned
Every burning word.

Just to say I really like them.

I was very proud of that one. I am glad you like it too.

Originally Posted by Hui

I feel like this one:

But at the end of Loss, in land without [] grief or pain

Has a missing downbeat in there. I may be wrong, though? If it is missing, we could reinsert it with in land released from grief and pain, or devoid of grief and pain?

I was reading "out" as 2 syllables, but your versions flow better. Again, really like both options, and both have their appeal. I feel like "released" might be the more Tolkienesque of the two, but I may be mistaken.

Originally Posted by Hui

-I liked 'foresee in thought', so good call. (I think you've used 'Ou-ur' in one line, then 'Aar' in the second? Not sure, but I feel like there's a downbeat missing if you pronounce them both as one syllable.)

Yes, it's 2 syllables the first time and 1 the second. Not ideal - if you have suggestions, they are most welcome.

Originally Posted by Hui

-If we really wanted to switch to 'snows', there's always:

How amid the shadows and snow
He could hear your call from below?

Which adds the ambiguity of whether 'below' is the dungeons of Tol Sirion, the pits of Angband, or the Halls of Mandos. It does lose some lovely imagery, though.

-An alternate:

Was the rustle of your wings
Mightier than kings?
Black and dreadful wings!

Or perhaps:

Was your wingtips' silent beat
Stronger than my grief?
All-consuming grief

Or something like that. (The flippin' wingtips have made it back in again! I'm never going to be rid of them.)

I will need to sit this one. I don't have time atm but will muse around later today.

When coming up ith rhymes initially I avoided "below" as reference to death because it seems like an "our world" concept that is not really echoed in the legendarium (maybe TA a bit, but not FA Elves so much). But is still works in its idiom form.

Originally Posted by Hui

-They do sound a bit like they're getting married, but that's kind of an eternal problem with duets. No problems here.

Good! Because I like that line and wasn't sure what I could replace it with if it didn't make the cut.

I'm fond of this translation, and with the polishing I think it will be quite good. It's the other one not meeting the mark that was giving me grief last night. It will be a project for later today too.

Originally Posted by Hui

On the sky-ships: I realised last night that it's not (just) about the Straight Road: It's Earendil. In "Truth", Finrod associates them with the 'golden dust', which in Silm terms can only be the jewelled dust that covers the Mariner when he walks through Tirion.

I like this interpretation; it makes Finrod's last lines his final prophesy, encompassing the success of the Quest, the fate of Beren and Luthien's line (in Elwing), and the destiny of the Silmaril. And Galadriel, of course, has a whole thing going on with the light of Earendil, so it works for her too.

hS

So now we have a third interpretation for the same concept. Wonderful! ^.^

On that topic, I like the emerging theme of "the heights". Never once mentioned in the Russian, but they keep cropping up in very apt places and are creating a multiple-layers theme of their own. :-)

[Huinesoron]

Working on the Duel again. A few changes to Finrod first:

With the Western Wind behind me
No excuses now.
Lies are poison foul

'No excuses now' to imply 'they've all been stripped away'. I might even go with 'no illusions now' - how does this match the Russian? It's got a nice double-meaning in English, referring to both his disguise illusions, and the illusion that the Rebellion was glorious.

'Lies are poison foul' - Jareth!Finrod sings it so this would scan. 'Lies poison's foul' would work if we absolutely need to cut a syllable out.

Blood trail by flowers is stained white

I don't like the line saying 'the blood trail flowers', because 'flowers' is a verb too, so it sounds like the blood trail is spreading.

Moving on to Sauron 2, nice and easy because three of the lines already exist:

Feeble imitation of Creation's first design
How can such as you hope to restore a single line?
Nothing you can do will change one note of Arda's Song
In a pattern tight are woven threads both dire and strong.
I see you will lose even the little that you have.
Left with bitter memories - do you have strength for that?

That second line draws from the original translation, rather than the literal meaning. I like it, because restoring the Song is the whole point of Finrod's Vision of the Second Music, found in the Athrabeth. It also points to the answer - Fnrod's belief is that Mortals will carry out said restoration.

(Finrod references this, very obliquely, even in the Silm. His last words to Beren are "and it may be that we shall not meet a second time in death or life, for the fates of our kindreds are apart", which invite the corollary, "... and it may be that we will.")

Now on to Finrod:

FINROD:
In land of mem'ry
Runes are carved on ev'ry boulder
There harps are playing
Unchanging is their song
And at my shoulder
Shines a peaceful world untainted
Rising like the dawn.
Mem'ry is strong
Naught is forgot; rememb'ring
Guards me from all harm

Mem'ry endures
Behold, my eyes are bright
Where falsehoods and illusions
Vanish with the night
This law is right*
Beneath the skies illumined
With untarnished light

Heeding the song of memory
Of Light before the Sun and Moon
I sing the ancient melody
Raising my strength to counter you
Strength to counter you!

I love the thematic feel of this verse (and links directly back to his burning memories ). The only line I'm really unhappy with is "This Law is right". I think my non-rhyming version was just "This is the Law".

Might as well do Sauron, since we've already got most of this bit!

SAURON:
There is only one who can wield power in this world:
He who breaks the chains that bind him from his freedom earned
But Elves are naught but slaves who ever curse their rightful Lords
Mockeries pathetic of the ones who came before
Games of light and darkness are beyond your feeble kind
You are mine to do with whatsoe'er I bring to mind!

That was actually trickier than I thought. I don't like 'freedom earned' much, and 'whatsoe'er I bring to mind' feels forced to fit the rhyme, but does fit with Emo Sauron's portrayal.

I can tell both translators liked this song: they've made more effort to fit the rhythm and rhymes than for most of the others. Hopefully I'm doing it justice.

I know I need to look over Emo Sauron's Pity Party and the Epilogue; I'll get there, I promise!

hS

[Huinesoron]

Working through various Assorted Notes first:

Oh, would that in this world love knew of no rules! < This works nicely.

"I suggest we start an appendix for the parody versions. They're fun to do, and from my experience thus far don't require as much emotional input." < Snuck onto the end of the document.

"But the only practical suggestion I came up with is swapping "time" and "years" in the 3rd verse, to rhyme with "reach". However, even little change makes it sound less picturesque than the way you have it now." < How about changing 'reach' instead?

That's forever beyond our ken

Time-Ken isn't too bad a rhyme.

"I swapped "such is his high price for his kingly honour!" for "Such his unfair price for his kingly honour!". It's a bit less of a tongue twister. Any reasons not to switch it?"

Checking the Silm, Beren actually calls it a "little price", and so:

Such a little price for his kingly honour!

It sounds a bit demeaning, but... it's meant to! Beren is super snarky.

Right, moving on to the Pity Party:

Can you give a decent reason - how about What the cause and what the reason? It has shades of 'Where now the horse and the rider?', though more I think of William Blake:

What the hammer? what the chain,
In what furnace was thy brain?
What the anvil? what dread grasp,
Dare its deadly terrors clasp!

I think the 'find captives' stanza works well as it currently stands.

The fetters:

ORCS:
We could put ourselves in fetters
As to entertain you better!
We would even grey and wither
If you so command!

SAURON:
What's the purpose of your torment?
It intensifies the boredom.
You're already slaves and servants!
Get out of my sight!


As you say, 'could' to link with the passage above. Can I suggest 'So to entertain you better'? Normally it would be 'so as', but I think I've heard just 'so'. (Also, shades of 'So, to business' and suchlike.)

'Grey and wither' - I agree that swapping out 'grey' would be nice. Simple 'age' is always a possibility?

I love 'It intensifies the boredom'. Oh, Emo Sauron.

For the rhyming last line: can we change both of them? 'If you so decree' and 'Get you gone from me' would work. I assume we need to rhyme with 'land' as well? Let's see:

O my Lord, upon our border
There is something out of order:
Unidentified intruders
Approaching your seat!

Maybe?

I'm also torn over whether 'something out of order' is too silly or just right for this song. I don't really have an alternative, though.

The final stanza is brilliant. ^_^

hS

[Galadriel55]

Gonna start off with: I am amazed at how you manage to keep the rhymes and content in balance for Finrod's part. The Duel looks great! I have a few things to say, but I think I'll leave them for last to give it proper thought.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I know I need to look over Emo Sauron's Pity Party and the Epilogue; I'll get there, I promise!

There is no rush for that! More important to get the inspiration out into words while it lasts. Also, I was thinking to maybe even scrap the Epilogue and redo it, so don't spend your time on that yet.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

"But the only practical suggestion I came up with is swapping "time" and "years" in the 3rd verse, to rhyme with "reach". However, even little change makes it sound less picturesque than the way you have it now." < How about changing 'reach' instead?

That's forever beyond our ken

Time-Ken isn't too bad a rhyme.

As I'm singing that part of the song, I feel that unless the rhymes are strong, they are lost. They are too far apart to be heard if it's just a near-rhyme. Maybe another thing to flag for a sing-along.

Originally Posted by Hui

Checking the Silm, Beren actually calls it a "little price", and so:

Such a little price for his kingly honour!

It sounds a bit demeaning, but... it's meant to! Beren is super snarky.

Yeah, but he's snarky to Thingol, and this is Finrod, to whom he opens his heart and weeps when he recalls Luthien (whom he will probably never see again because of the stupid "price"). Also, it's a little price for a king's daughter, but not necessarily for the king's honour. I am not sure I agree with the reference in Beren's current context, even though it's a direct quote.

Originally Posted by Hui

What the cause and what the reason?

Taken.

Originally Posted by Hui

Can I suggest 'So to entertain you better'? Normally it would be 'so as', but I think I've heard just 'so'. (Also, shades of 'So, to business' and suchlike.)

Taken. Somehow in my head I've shortened "so as" to "as", but I trust you more on this. (Also, grammar, remember? That stuff got murdered in a dark alley somewhere)

Originally Posted by Hui

'Grey and wither' - I agree that swapping out 'grey' would be nice. Simple 'age' is always a possibility?

We would even age and wither if you so command! Hmm, maybe. Let's go with that unless something really good occurs to replace it.

Originally Posted by Hui

I love 'It intensifies the boredom'. Oh, Emo Sauron.

I thought that line was very in-character.
(Also, I am childishly amused by the childish joke they played in V1: they have the minions bring Sauron a mirror to check out his new crown. Ah the things to nurture a Maia's vanity!)

Originally Posted by Hui

I'm also torn over whether 'something out of order' is too silly or just right for this song. I don't really have an alternative, though.

I feel like if there is a place to go silly, it would be this song. I guess depends on how it's performed as well. The angelic choir in V2 works better for the captive Elves, but I prefer the minions in the appearance of the off-pitch but magnificent V1 goofs, which is probably why I have a somewhat silly take on the song.

I like If you so decree! and Get you gone from me!. Approaching your seat, though, is off-beat, and needs a bit more fiddling. I'm putting in the first 2 lines, and will work on this one later.

And now back to Finrod!

[Galadriel55]

First Verse:

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

With the Western Wind behind me
No excuses now.
Lies are poison foul

'No excuses now' to imply 'they've all been stripped away'. I might even go with 'no illusions now' - how does this match the Russian? It's got a nice double-meaning in English, referring to both his disguise illusions, and the illusion that the Rebellion was glorious.

'Lies are poison foul' - Jareth!Finrod sings it so this would scan. 'Lies poison's foul' would work if we absolutely need to cut a syllable out.

"Without excuses [for myself? for the Noldor?], I stand before you rimmed by the Western Winds".

I like "No excuses now", and I also like "no illusions now". "Illusions" gives it a different meaning from the source text, but depending on how Finrod's song proceeds (ie when he does start making excuses) it might be worthwhile to revisit this point.

"Lies are poison foul" should be 4 syllables, I am again confused at how they got 5 out of it. The way I have the melody in my head I can't get the 5th one to fit on any end.

Verse 2: Sauron

Loving the malevolence drip from his tongue.

Originally Posted by Hui

That second line draws from the original translation, rather than the literal meaning.

Uhhhh... the translation of the Lay? Sorry, out of my depth here. But it makes sense in this context - and if there is somehow a connection to Finrod's last words to Beren, all the better!


Verse 2: Finrod

Originally Posted by Hui

Where harps are playing
Unchanging is their song

Hmm, interesting. He says "the strings of the lyres keep silent about the power of years", which I took to mean "our legends (and even Arda's Song itself, perhaps) don't reveal what is to come, the ultimate end [and therefore Light might still triumph]".

Originally Posted by Hui

And at my shoulder
Shines a peaceful world untainted
Rising like the dawn.

Love this!

Originally Posted by Hui

Mem'ry is strong
Naught is forgot; rememb'ring
Guards me from all harm

I was gonna suggest "remembrance", but then remembered it's also supposed to rhyme. :/

Originally Posted by Hui

Where falsehoods and illusions
Vanish with the night

I will suggest a small detail, a switch to "While falsehoods etc". This makes a more direct comparison to the preceding line. Also, I really like these two lines.

Originally Posted by Hui

Beneath the skies illumined
With untarnished light

Love this very much!

Originally Posted by Hui

The only line I'm really unhappy with is "This Law is right". I think my non-rhyming version was just "This is the Law".

I will give it a ponder. :-)



Sauron Again

Originally Posted by Hui

Might as well do Sauron, since we've already got most of this bit!

This is how I did all the translations, lol. "Let me work on this for 5 minutes -- might as well do one more stanza -- but I have an idea! -- and 5 hours later".

Originally Posted by Hui

He who breaks the chains that bind him from his freedom earned

Iiiinteresting. You're the second Downer to put the emphasis on that part of the line (the first was Legate who I messaged about the awesomeness of the Duel).

Sauron says: "Power/strength can belong only to those who can without doubt/hesitation tear the chains of thralldom". It's so interesting that both you and Legate picked up on the thralldom part; he linked it with the Noldor's semi-rebellion against the Valar's yoke, I'm not sure if you intended the same thing. But I and my friend (not that one, another one) picked up more on the "doubt". You are only strong if you have confidence in your rightness your self-doubt becomes your shackles. Both Duels can be seen as a struggle of confidences, who is more sure of what they stand for. And therefore Finrod loses as soon as he gets defensive.

Two different takes on the same line. I wonder if it's possible to preserve both interpretations. Who breaks without doubt the chains that bind his freedom earned?

Originally Posted by Hui

But Elves are naught but slaves who ever curse their rightful Lords

"But" should probably go. It works in the other Duel because it's the first line Sauron says, he has room for overhang. But this falls in the middle of the rant, and, though possible, it's uncomfortable to squeeze in "but" - which isn't critical to the sentence anyways.

[Edit: I listened to the L&S Duel again, and actually he has the overhang there in Russian just like he does with "but"! But he still doesn't here, and I think it would flow better without.]

Originally Posted by Hui

Games of light and darkness are beyond your feeble kind
You are mine to do with whatsoe'er I bring to mind!

Nothing wrong with this rhyme, and "bring to mind" is well-suited for Sauron. When I read this initially, this alternative also occurred to me: "You are mine to do with whatsoever I decide!", which is a pretty close fit for rhyme, but perhaps not as interesting of a phrase.

Originally Posted by Hui

I can tell both translators liked this song: they've made more effort to fit the rhythm and rhymes than for most of the others. Hopefully I'm doing it justice.

I think it's overall, content and music and acting and overall aesthetic combined, the most memorable song in the musical. The pinnacle, so to speak. It's hard not to be impressed by it.

As I told you before, I would never even attempt this song, because it's so difficult to preserve both the aesthetic and the content. So far you're doing amazing! I have no idea how you can deal with Finrod's rhymes, which will surely tangle Death itself in their boughs even if the Trees fail. :P

[Galadriel55]

In the hour when slumber calls
And the cloak of Night dulls the air
I don’t see these stone-carven walls
For I know that he is not there.

Tell the truth, O Heart, tell me why [is it worth breaking the structure to give it some lace?]
In the velvet twilight you weep?
Where lies he in his deathly sleep?
Why did my fair brother go
Many years ago [another filler line, but I justified it with LOTR-time Galadriel]
Into sunset glow?

Why did my fair brother tall,
Who'd forgiven all,
With the sunset fall? <-- is still on the table

Did he reach a final accord
In the daunting struggle with fate?
What left he behind in his wake [so far I am happy with the stanza]
In this young and imperfect world? [<-- but this line is filler and subject to modification]

An ancient Oath that brings ruin to who holds it fast.
An ancient glory and courage of kings of the past.
An ancient pride that lives on in those who see not grief nor trials vast -
But stronger is time.
No more, brother mine,
Of looking behind:
There is no going backward -!


Ours - the harbours grey with sky-ship sails [Too much? Should I keep it true to the ship's description and make it "white with sails"?]
Yours - the greeting of the coming dawn!
More strong than even steel of bonds
Above all words and oaths beyond
The only Law that counts, the Law of Love prevails!

Ours - the salt of sea-spray on the wind
Yours - a love to fill entire world
And if in this new world's account
Love is the only Law that counts
Our ancient world was but a brief prologue to it! [Or keep the first one: Our tale was nothing but a brief prologue to it! <--the more meta of the lines, so probably would be my pick]

Ours - of ships departed fading shade [vs the fading shadow of the sails - but I already used "sails"]
Yours - the ringing grasses of the spring
And if in this new world's account
Love is the only Law that counts
We were but dawn while you're the light of burning day! [Burning light of day? Burning sun of day? The sun of burning day? Or is that just unnecessary reference that spoils the image?]

Ours - the guarding of your night-dream realm [...maybe?]
Yours - the vast and dazzling universe
And at the [its?] end, in shadowed hall,
You'll take from mightiest of all
Your final gift, the greatest gift of Love itself!



Turns out I didn't have to scrap the whole thing. Looking at it with fresh eyes, quite a bit of it was decent. But I reworked the second half partly from scratch, leaving only the lines that I knew had to be there and seeing how I could build it up differently. And I like this a lot better. It seems like minor changes, but I think it makes a difference. Or it's just the placebo effect of two hours of working on it.

I am actually happy with how most of the Ours/Yours verses sound. And I feel that it's sufficiently meta to reveal all the necessary layers. But the more lace and layers, the better!

[Galadriel55]

Tell me, Death, o tell me the truth
How amid the shadows and ice
He could hear the summons of Night?
How was mightier than kings
Rustle of your wings,
Fell and ruthless wings?


1. "Ice" vs "snow"
I am curious what your thought is about death as a "below" concept in a world where the Otherworld is not in an Underworld. If you think it still goes, this might be an option. Otherwise, I think "summons" will compensate for "Ice".

2. The wings, blast them to pieces

a) Was the rustle of your wings
Mightier than kings?
Black and dreadful wings!

b) Was your wingtips' silent beat
Stronger than my grief?
All-consuming grief --> or how about something about powerless grief? Unavailing grief? Fierce but helpless grief?

c) How was stronger than the King
Rustle of your wings
Black and ruthless wings!

I think of these options I like either what is there already or (B), which sacrifices "rustle" and "mighty" and the final emphasis on death, but brings in Galadriel's perspective. I'm gonna post up (B) to see how it flows. Still hanging in the balance.




Tinkering (TM) (=a bunch of little edits, but I don't think you're awake at this time of day)

...A brief note on Minions:

O my Lord, upon our border
There is something out of order:
Unidentified intruders
Crossed your boundary!

or Roaming by your seat!, or even Racing past your seat!

?



...and even briefer points on the Duel of F&S:

Where crowned with snow

Since "snow" and "boughs" are only near-rhymes, would it sound better in plural, "snows"?

He who breaks the chains that bind him from his freedom earned

Another alternative: He who without doubting breaks the chains which slave him hold



Speaking of the Duel, Finrod's next half-verse ("my choice is made") goes:

- (sdelan)
A (Eru)
B (teni)
- (rukah)
A (veryu)
B (poteri)

... So only two pairs of rhymes there.

The following verse ("but greater fault...")
[So be it! / let it be so] = stand alone in a single syllable. "Fine!", if Finrod was a teenager.
A (vina)
B (chas)
B (glaz)
B (nas)

And his last ("what is so appealing about the throne")
[...first answer me] = as a continuation of Sauron's line, "But first"
A (tron) ***same melody as the ABABs in his first 2 verses. I think either ABAB or AABB would work equally well.
A (Sauron)
A (koron)
A (rojdyon)
[Sauron]:
A = repeats Finrod's last with his own variation
B
A
B


Going back to the Epilogue, the O Heart stanza:
I still feel that the fact that Finrod didn't hold a single grudge against anyone deserves a mention. So I was trying to work that in place of "many years ago" (though possibly after "into sunset glow, order-wise).
Pardoning all foes?
Grudging not the blows?
Where no grudges grow? (This might come before the sunset line)


... Did I say tinkering was my trademark? Add to that: coming up with a dozen equivocal variations for the same line.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Gonna start off with: I am amazed at how you manage to keep the rhymes and content in balance for Finrod's part. The Duel looks great! I have a few things to say, but I think I'll leave them for last to give it proper thought.

I agree with this whole post.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

First Verse:

"Without excuses [for myself? for the Noldor?], I stand before you rimmed by the Western Winds".

I like "No excuses now", and I also like "no illusions now". "Illusions" gives it a different meaning from the source text, but depending on how Finrod's song proceeds (ie when he does start making excuses) it might be worthwhile to revisit this point.

I think we'll stick with 'excuses' for now, particularly if he winds up making some!

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

"Lies are poison foul" should be 4 syllables, I am again confused at how they got 5 out of it. The way I have the melody in my head I can't get the 5th one to fit on any end.

Not a clue, but I hate this line. It needs to rhyme with vows/now/pow'r, and possibly also with snow/boughs, and to capture both 'lies' and 'poison' - in four syllables.

... Lies taste so foul? We lose the explicit 'poison', but if we put it back into the next line the implicit link is there (Lies taste terrible, but even if they poison you they're not stronger than love).

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Uhhhh... the translation of the Lay? Sorry, out of my depth here. But it makes sense in this context - and if there is somehow a connection to Finrod's last words to Beren, all the better!

Sorry, I meant: this is based on the Version 1 subtitles/translation, rather than the more literal Version 2 subtitles.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Verse 2: Finrod

Hmm, interesting. He says "the strings of the lyres keep silent about the power of years", which I took to mean "our legends (and even Arda's Song itself, perhaps) don't reveal what is to come, the ultimate end [and therefore Light might still triumph]".

Oh, that's what it means!

There harps are playing
No ending in their song

'In' rather than 'to' to imply 'they don't sing of the End' (rather than 'they just don't stop!')

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I was gonna suggest "remembrance", but then remembered it's also supposed to rhyme. :/

This is basically me all through the song.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I will suggest a small detail, a switch to "While falsehoods etc". This makes a more direct comparison to the preceding line. Also, I really like these two lines.

Yep, that works.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Iiiinteresting. You're the second Downer to put the emphasis on that part of the line (the first was Legate who I messaged about the awesomeness of the Duel).

Sauron says: "Power/strength can belong only to those who can without doubt/hesitation tear the chains of thralldom". It's so interesting that both you and Legate picked up on the thralldom part; he linked it with the Noldor's semi-rebellion against the Valar's yoke, I'm not sure if you intended the same thing. But I and my friend (not that one, another one) picked up more on the "doubt". You are only strong if you have confidence in your rightness your self-doubt becomes your shackles. Both Duels can be seen as a struggle of confidences, who is more sure of what they stand for. And therefore Finrod loses as soon as he gets defensive.

Two different takes on the same line. I wonder if it's possible to preserve both interpretations. Who breaks without doubt the chains that bind his freedom earned?

Huh. I think this is mostly down to the translation, to be honest. I assumed Sauron was mostly referring to himself and Melkor, since standing there saying 'hey, if you're confident I'll let you go' would be a bit dumb. (But then, Sauron...)

I'm not sure 'doubt' captures the concept... there's a word out there that I can't quite get hold of that does it perfectly. I'll come back to this.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

"But" should probably go. It works in the other Duel because it's the first line Sauron says, he has room for overhang. But this falls in the middle of the rant, and, though possible, it's uncomfortable to squeeze in "but" - which isn't critical to the sentence anyways.

Got it.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I have no idea how you can deal with Finrod's rhymes, which will surely tangle Death itself in their boughs even if the Trees fail. :P

Ha! This is the one song I've not even bothered with rhymes the first time through: I've taken to writing lyrics that scan, then writing the rhyme scheme next to them and shuffling words around until it all fits.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

1. "Ice" vs "snow"
I am curious what your thought is about death as a "below" concept in a world where the Otherworld is not in an Underworld. If you think it still goes, this might be an option. Otherwise, I think "summons" will compensate for "Ice".

Mm. Technically both Deaths are below, but you're right that it's more interesting not to use that term. Stick with what you've got.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think of these options I like either what is there already or (B), which sacrifices "rustle" and "mighty" and the final emphasis on death, but brings in Galadriel's perspective. I'm gonna post up (B) to see how it flows. Still hanging in the balance.

I like this version. I mean, I like both versions, but the 'silent beat' evokes an image of Death like a black owl in the night. Or indeed a bat, if Emo Sauron has his way.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Crossed your boundary!

This! This is the word we need!

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Since "snow" and "boughs" are only near-rhymes, would it sound better in plural, "snows"?

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Another alternative: He who without doubting breaks the chains which slave him hold

There's an 'un-' word, I'm sure there is. I'm putting this in for now, but I swear there's a word out there.

Thank you for the rhyme notes! I will work on the Duel and look over the Epilogue today. After which I think I'll pick one of Amarie's songs, with only a single singer. Sounds like heaven!

hS

[Huinesoron]

A quick earlier edit: Lies taste so foul is now Lies' taste is foul, because... it's a better line.

A few more suggestions for the chains line:

He who without doubt or fear can break the chains that hold

Only he who feels no doubt can break free from his bonds!

I quite like that last one, and have put it in for now. Its biggest flaw is that it rhymes 'bonds' with 'world', which isn't great.

And now, finally: the conclusion of the Duel.

Finrod v. Sauron, Round 3: Fight!

FINROD:
I've made my choice now
I entrust my fate to Eru
Both light and darkness
Are gifts He grants to us.
I don't accept you
Or your ending in its coldness-

SAURON:
That's fear that fills your heart
Fear that's only felt by slaves and cowards in the dark
You see, but you do not dare to face the bitter truth
Guilty is your soul before He who created you!

FINROD:
Yes!
But greater is the guilt
Of he who in the dark
Shameless and stark
Taught pride to Elven hearts-!

SAURON:
That gift was granted you to free you from your chains
With my innate powers, your proud heart is mine to change!

FINROD:
You only destroy!

SAURON:
Your words are dangerous! Take warning and beware
All that once was woven can be sundered. Now answer-

FINROD:
Answer first:
Why does your black and iron throne
Delight you so, o Sauron?
As though a crown of jewelled thorns
Could save the one who wasn't born?

SAURON:
Immortal, never born,
I have no destined fate or end
If you're the best that Light has formed
Darkness will reign - and by my hand...!

I think the syllable count is kind of scrambled in the last line or two. I've checked it against both versions, but I can't get it any better than this.

Finrod's 'Answer first:' line also seems to be completely different lengths in the different versions. It can take a 'me' in the middle if it needs to.

As for Пусть! - 'yes' doesn't have quite the same acceptance, but it makes a nice counter to Luthien's later 'No!'. I don't think there's another option ('True!', maybe), unless we want to roll into the rest of the line (Hold! So be it, if you will), and I think that reduces the power of Finrod's collapse here.

hS

[Huinesoron]

Taking the Epilogue as a whole, then. I'm working against Version 1 in this instance. Suggested lines are in bold for highlighting purposes only.

In the hour when slumber calls
And the cloak of Night dulls the air
I don’t see these stone-carven walls
For I know that he is not there.

Both sets of subtitles say you, which would would mirror Finrod's words earlier. Is there a reason you went with 'he'?

Tell the truth, O Heart, tell me why
In the velvet twilight you weep?
Where lies he in his deathly sleep?

I'm having trouble fitting this to the sung line. I think even V1 Galadriel throws in an extra half-syllable (death-er-ly?), but I'll trust your rhythm.

Why did my fair brother go
Many years ago
Into sunset glow?
//
Why did my fair brother tall,
Who'd forgiven all,
With the sunset fall?


It's kind of a shame to lose the final 'who'd forgiven all', but you're right that the first version is rather nicer.

Did he reach a final accord
In the daunting struggle with fate?
What left he behind in his wake
In this young and imperfect world?

His daunting struggle, maybe?

For the last line, 'wake' brings in the ship imagery, so can we use the Straight Road?

When he took the Westerly road?

An ancient Oath that brings ruin to who holds it fast.

An ancient Oath ruins those who hold to it fast

Or, if we can flip who's doing the holding:

An ancient Oath summons ruin on those it holds fast

An ancient glory and courage of kings of the past.
An ancient pride that lives on in those who see not grief nor trials vast -
But stronger is time.
No more, brother mine,
Of looking behind:
There is no going backward -!

I really like these lines. My only suggestion is No looking behind; I know it breaks the sentence, but 'No more' kind of stands alone anyway.

Ours - the harbours grey with sky-ship sails
Yours - the greeting of the coming dawn!
More strong than even steel of bonds
Above all words and oaths beyond
The only Law that counts, the Law of Love prevails!

I like 'sky-ship sails'. I have to wonder why you didn't go with Havens grey, though. ^_~

I love the flow in this stanza. It might work better with [b]More strong than steel and iron bonds[b], because 'steel of bonds' feels kind of forced. But the rhymes are perfect.

Ours - the salt of sea-spray on the wind
Yours - a love to fill entire world
And if in this new world's account
Love is the only Law that counts
Our ancient world was but a brief prologue to it!
// Our tale was nothing but a brief prologue to it!

Go for it! Or even Our ancient tale was but etc.

I like the account/counts pair - that's a lovely set of lines.

Ours - of ships departed fading shade
Yours - the ringing grasses of the spring
And if in this new world's account
Love is the only Law that counts
We were but dawn while you're the light of burning day!

How about the fading shadows on the Sea? Sea/day still rhymes(ish)

I think burning light of day flows best on the last line.

Ours - the guarding of your night-dream realm
Yours - the vast and dazzling universe
And at the end, in shadowed hall,
You'll take from mightiest of all
Your final gift, the greatest gift of Love itself!

I'm struggling to do something with that first line. I really like the concept, but it's hard to fit "we stand guard upon your dreams" into the rhyme, rhythm, and grammar.

Ours - within your dreams to guard and help?

Ours - to guard your dreams above all else?

Ours - within your dreams to guard and dwell?

Ours - to guard your dreams where mem'ries dwell?

I think 'the end' rather than 'its end', since the latter implies that they have to wait to the end of time.

I do like 'the vast and dazzling universe'. That's a lovely line that perfectly fits the theme.

Overall, a great job! I know I used lots of words, but they're mostly minor tweaks.

(Hey, did I just manage to catch up with the thread?)

hS

[Galadriel55]

Only time for a very quick post before I have to go, but I will get back on all the points in the evening.

The Duel looks so good. ^.^ It's delightful.

I agree with the Yes/No dichotomy. It works as a parallel, and it's close enough in meaning.

"You only destroy": I am honestly not sure which version I am more a fan of, this, or the original (you may only do so by killing us). Sauron as the judge of Finrod's fate, or Sauron the fallen Maia. Or, "Only to destroy" - which gathers up both, perhaps?

"Answer me first" sounds better by the V1 melody. I don't remember well enough how Jareth!Finrod does this part, but I can check tonight.

The syllable count in Sauron's last is on point.

Ahhh, I'm late! Be back witb the rest.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

"You only destroy": I am honestly not sure which version I am more a fan of, this, or the original (you may only do so by killing us). Sauron as the judge of Finrod's fate, or Sauron the fallen Maia. Or, "Only to destroy" - which gathers up both, perhaps?

Ah - the translations weren't clear on what was going on here. 'Only to destroy' is a nice compromise.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

"Answer me first" sounds better by the V1 melody. I don't remember well enough how Jareth!Finrod does this part, but I can check tonight.

Using this.

hS

[Huinesoron]

I've gone with the Libretto for this one, which makes it a duet. The two parts are very distinct, and it makes more sense to me that way, and pairs the song nicely with Beren's dream-duet with Luthien. But I think the words work even if Amarie sings the whole thing.

Heart (Finrod's Dream)

FINROD:
Speak, oh my heart; I am turning to thee
What should I sing, to forget what has left me
And to preserve you in peace?

AMARIE:
Crimson the night has passed over mountains undying
Speak, oh my heart, are you a friend or betraying
Why won't you speak unto me?

FINROD:
Listen, my heart, I can almost ignore how you ache
Remember: that which once broke, no more can be breaking
A new dawn is rising from out of the sea-scattered mists

AMARIE:
Listen, my heart, has the world fallen silent today?
Do you believe he who's gone can no more be returning?
Listen, my heart - keep your silence on this!

FINROD:
Look thou, my heart, that has rung like a scream through the Night
Dawn in her splendour is rising over chasms of ice

AMARIE:
Look thou, my heart: forget his fair face and eyes bright
You've skipped a beat once again, skipped a beat one last time

FINROD:
Feel, o my heart, you are flung open wide like a gate
AMARIE:
Feel, o my heart, you are bruised like the bitterest fruit
BOTH:
Like the pain-dulling richness of wine!

AMARIE:
Feel, o my heart, I know not what course I should take
Feathers of dawn flaring up in morning sky blue
New day is come - yet it can't unwrite even one line!

Heed me, my heart, you are not trapped by a barred gate
Follow his heart through the Night over storm-shrouded waters
Follow death's road with the shadows of mem'ries wand'ring
Heed me, my heart, help him rise from the pathways of fate
Drink from oblivion's cup but remain unaltered
Brave the Abyss - and awake at dawning.

Answer, my heart: I am turning to thee.
Send your lament soaring skyward to greet him
Over this desert of grief.

FINROD:
Answer, my heart: challenge this fate that's found me
What should I sing, to make you beat like you once did?

BOTH:
Give me the words!
Or take your final beat.

I really enjoyed the freedom I got from 'Сердце мое'; it let me add a structure that wasn't in the original, but works very nicely.

And I've got to say, knowing this is supposed to be Finrod's dream makes me appreciate it more. It's a song that actually explains itself - he's dreaming about her because she's sending her heart out to him across the Sea.

The only part that really gave me trouble was this:

FINROD:
Feel, o my heart, you are flung open wide like a gate
AMARIE:
Feel, o my heart, you are bruised like the bitterest fruit
BOTH:
Like the pain-dulling richness of wine!

AMARIE:
Feel, o my heart, I know not what course I should take
Feathers of dawn flaring up in morning sky blue
New day is come - yet it can't unwrite even one line!

I'm not sure I understand what the lyrics are getting at, so I've had to make a lot of guesses.

hS

[Galadriel55]

I'll start off with Heart, and then go back to the other points. I don't remember this song as well, so I am referencing the Libretto and V2 as i'm looking through it. My favourite part of this song is Amarie telling her heart to follow Finrod and help him through his fate.

I had the song pasted here to do a line-by-line, then realized it's probably not necessary. Translation-wise it is very accurate. The meter is sometimes a bit off, with occasional hanging or missing syllables, but I think it scans in most cases. It would be possible to change most lines to a "perfect fit" (e.g. "Now I am turning to thee" for the first line), I just wonder if making all of them "perfect" is necessary. Just a couple lines I would change.

Remember: that which once broke, no more can be breaking

I am tripping up over "remember", but if "re" is left to stick out it could work. So maybe no need to change even this one.

Drink from oblivion's cup but remain unaltered

This works, but "and yet" for "but" I think fits more easily meter-wise.


Heed me, my heart, you are not trapped by a barred gate
Follow his heart through the Night over storm-shrouded waters
Follow death's road with the shadows of mem'ries wand'ring
Heed me, my heart, help him rise from the pathways of fate
Drink from oblivion's cup but remain unaltered
Brave the Abyss - and awake at dawning.

^ Is beautiful.

Originally Posted by Hui

The only part that really gave me trouble was this:...
I'm not sure I understand what the lyrics are getting at, so I've had to make a lot of guesses.

To be perfectly honest I don't understand 100% either. But you were very very close to the text! Here is the "literal take":

My heart, opened wide like a door,
My heart, dissolved in bread like bitterness [or perhaps dissolved like the bitterness of bread?] (*shrug* No idea. Some of their kennings are quite beyond me.)
Stunned by the late wine! (not sure if "late" is supposed to be significant. It's definitely NOT "old wine", but beyond that you know as much as I do. Is it wine made from late grapes? Drunk late in time? No clue.)

My heart, I don't know what to do now.
The feathers of dawn are coming alight in the morning sky
Day came and didn't erase my memory of him.

So you can see, your translation was very on point! There isn't much to add to the meaning, as far as I can decipher, beyond what you already have!

[Galadriel55]

Epilogue

Originally Posted by Hui

Both sets of subtitles say you, which would would mirror Finrod's words earlier. Is there a reason you went with 'he'?

There is indeed! Working from the lyrics by memory and misremembering the lines. Fixed.

Originally Posted by Hui

I'm having trouble fitting this to the sung line. I think even V1 Galadriel throws in an extra half-syllable (death-er-ly?), but I'll trust your rhythm.

Checked it, and it should fit correctly. Maybe we're singing it differently. In that case, an alternative could be considered.

Originally Posted by Hui

It's kind of a shame to lose the final 'who'd forgiven all', but you're right that the first version is rather nicer.

What do you think of:

Why did my fair brother go
Into sunset glow,
Grudging not the blows?

Originally Posted by Hui

His daunting struggle, maybe?

Taken.

Originally Posted by Hui

When he took the Westerly road?

Does that not imply the Elves' physical departure to the West though? Will need to consider.

Originally Posted by Hui

An ancient Oath ruins those who hold to it fast

Or, if we can flip who's doing the holding:

An ancient Oath summons ruin on those it holds fast

Yes! YES!

To keep the same structure echoed in the 2nd line, how about: An ancient Oath that brings ruin on those it holds fast? The flipping of the holding was brilliant!

Originally Posted by Hui

I really like these lines. My only suggestion is No looking behind; I know it breaks the sentence, but 'No more' kind of stands alone anyway.

Sure.

Originally Posted by Hui

I like 'sky-ship sails'. I have to wonder why you didn't go with Havens grey, though. ^_~

Real reason? Because I was going from the literal translation outward, and after discarding a few synonyms like "dock" and "port" and the like, I got to "harbour" and latched onto it, and therefore I think I never even got to "havens". *sheepish grin* You know, I feel really stupid when you point out these things that should have been obvious, but I guess that's what the editing process is for.

The thought-out reason: I wondered if even the word "grey" was overkill reference. But I guess you didn't think so! I wonder if "havens grey" will be too narrow a description, as it technically leaves out the Elves departing in earlier times and from other places - Beleriand, Dol Amroth, etc. On the other hand, it helps solidify the image of LOTR-Galadriel. Yea or nay? I'm torn.

Originally Posted by Hui

I love the flow in this stanza. It might work better with [b]More strong than steel and iron bonds[b], because 'steel of bonds' feels kind of forced. But the rhymes are perfect.

Taken, and thank you! ^.^ It was the most difficult one for me to get to the point where I was happy with it. I am so glad I redid it.

Originally Posted by Hui

Or even Our ancient tale was but etc.

Again: Thanks for pointing out the obvious, which somehow fails to occur to me.

Originally Posted by Hui

How about the fading shadows on the Sea? Sea/day still rhymes(ish)

This would never occur to me because they don't rhyme even remotely in a North American accent. But I like the structure better here.

If it's not fated for me to keep all of "fade" and "shade" and "departed" in that line - how about "the fading shadows in the waves"? It's the same structure as yours, but it's less jarring in the voice that lives in my head. :-)

Originally Posted by Hui

I'm struggling to do something with that first line. I really like the concept, but it's hard to fit "we stand guard upon your dreams" into the rhyme, rhythm, and grammar.

I can't argue here. Your suggestions are all in "verb form", but that might be better than nonsense form. I like "Ours - to guard your dreams where mem'ries dwell" best. Or maybe "to guard your dreams and in them dwell"? "To guard the dreams in which we dwell"?

Originally Posted by Hui

I think 'the end' rather than 'its end', since the latter implies that they have to wait to the end of time.

Right. I did the should-be-obvious thing again. I somehow forgot that I changed the previous line in translation, which originally said "for you - to cross through the entire wide world", and so "its end" in my head was spacial rather than temporal. And I somehow did not realize that the lines don't match up anymore even after multiple rereads. *sigh* Seriously, thanks for the tips! Minor or not, they make a big difference.




The Duel

Originally Posted by Hui

I think we'll stick with 'excuses' for now, particularly if he winds up making some!

And you still got "illusions" in to make the reference!

Originally Posted by Hui

There harps are playing
No ending in their song

Ooooh, an idea! No ending names their song - ?

Originally Posted by Hui

Huh. I think this is mostly down to the translation, to be honest. I assumed Sauron was mostly referring to himself and Melkor, since standing there saying 'hey, if you're confident I'll let you go' would be a bit dumb. (But then, Sauron...)

I'm not sure 'doubt' captures the concept... there's a word out there that I can't quite get hold of that does it perfectly. I'll come back to this.

Hmm, maybe I'm just not very coherent too when I get excited. I meant the confidence bit as in, you can't have power if you don't believe in your own power, if you don't claim it with confidence. Sauron plays on all of Finrod's doubts to make him waver in his conviction, both morally and in terms of his strength. He keeps emphasizing that Finrod is inherently inferior to an Ainu, he reminds Finrod that former bliss is ruined and suggests his memory is painful rather than comforting, tells Finrod that his doom is pre-destined as the world is steeped in evil ever since Melkor went off tune. Finrod counters all his metaphysical arguments firmly, but Sauron gets him on the personal jabs: you are weak, you are guilty, there is no help for you. This is a bit of a departure from He chanted a song of wizardry, where is seems that the downfall is that Finrod tries to call on the memory of purity, but the purity has been ruined, he has nothing to convey.

On the flip side, Sauron's duel with Luthien may be a lot less faithful to down it went in The Sil (no Huan etc), but Sauron's dismay is on point. He tries to fight with his old tricks and encounters something he does not expect at all. How Huan has turned into the Force of Love, which will disregard reason and find a way - don't ask, it just works, and Sauron's surprise is the same. Luthien just goes "I know it's impossible but I don't care, I'll still do it", and he doesn't know how to deal with that. Oh Finrod, if you were just a little less philosophical.

(Not that confidence is of any direct help; Hurin spit plenty of it with Eru's name into Morgoth's face, for all the good it's done him. But more like Finrod's lack of confidence in his ability to fight Sauron is the reason his strength wavers and Sauron wins).

But even in the more literal interpretation, "without doubt/hesitation" gives a bit more flavour if we can preserve it. The Noldor did break with the Valar - except that most of them didn't really break with them, and are still trying to maintain or regain contact. They didn't want to rebel, they were trying to not betray their kin in an escalating situation. Sauron is like, pick a side dude, and stick with it! The middle ground won't get you anywhere!

But again, this essay doesn't get us very far towards our goal. I would love it if we could keep the "doubt" reference, but if it just doesn't work, then I would be ok sacrificing it to keep the style.

Synonyms, synonyms... unhesitatingly? decidedly? I will also have to come back to this. I can also almost swear there is an "un" word that's stronger than "unhesitatingly", but it's eluding me.

Originally Posted by Hui

Lies' taste is foul

I like that! The Doc still shows the old version, I'll change it to this one.

Shameless and stark

This line sits a bit oddly, both in terms of rhythm and content (I get how "stark" could fit, but it's not a word I would use naturally here). However, given how difficult it is to match anything else with the rest of Finrod's lines, I have no constructive alternative to offer. I will let you know if I get anywhere in tinkering with it.

That gift was granted you to free you from your chains
With my innate powers, your proud heart is mine to change!
...
Your words are dangerous! Take warning and beware
...
If you're the best that Light has formed

Love it! An excellent Sauron! :-D





While we polish the stuff that's already there, what are your plans for next songs? For myself, I will probably stick to polishing and tinkering for a day or two, to catch up properly with the new stuff and revisit the flagged lines, and allow you to catch up properly as well. In terms of what to do next, I don't really have any specific ones in mind. I have enough of a good feel of Memory, Halt, and Captivity to give them a try; can also do Renunciation or attempt the Prison Duet (interesting, it comes after Captivity in V2, but before it in the Libretto) - or any of the remaining ones, really, except for Amarie's stuff (don't remember it well) and Feanorians' Quarrel (I feel like you have a much better style for those guys than I would). Are there any that you have a feel for in particular, or that you know you DON'T have a feel for? I believe you mentioned Luthien at Bay...

[Galadriel55]

I just re-watched V2 start to finish, because I find myself saying over and over again that I don't remember how they did stuff (except for the Luthien at bay / hatred / Thingol's doom combo, I love that part!). So, turns out that I actually like how they did the departure from Nargothrond (Halt... not sure why it's called that); the characters are not too jarring, and it's more musically complex than V1 in a good way. However, during Beren's arrival to Nargothrond - if he spoke this way to Finrod "in real life", he's be shot dead a dozen times over, ring or no ring. And I broke up laughing during their Prison Duet, because just as Mr. Fierce is saying "there is no fairer face", he looks like his fist is about to correct the situation.

[Huinesoron]

Trying to keep this short:

Heart:

-I know 'Remember' is too long, but couldn't find an alternative. I've subbed in 'Strange how'.

-I assume 'late wine' is as in 'last of the summer wine'; perhaps wine from late-season grapes is stronger or sweeter? I actually had 'aged' in there for a while, but decided to go for something that hung together instead.

Edit: It's both; grapes get more sugar with sun + warm weather, so late summer wine is both sweeter and more alcoholic. So, though I usually sway away from metaphor: And you're stunned by summer's late wine!

Other changes accepted.

Epilogue:

-For the 'sunset glow' part: is Forgiving all oaths a possibility for that final line? It would get forgiveness in, but also reference back to his key forgivenesses (Cel'n'Cur, and Beren for swearing to get a Silmaril - and himself).

'When he took the Westerly road?' - it does evoke the Straight Road, but not I think exclusively. We've had death as a road a few times (Amarie says it), and it does lead westward. It also links back to Finrod's repeated invocation of the Western Wind.

-'Havens grey' - since we're not saying 'Grey Havens', I think this is fine. The sea is grey in the havens, and the very skies are grey with weariness at the passing of the Firstborn, etc etc.

-I like 'the fading shadows in the waves'. Perhaps 'on'? My only concern with 'in' is that it sounds like they've all drowned. Shades of The Last Unicorn there.

-I think I prefer 'to guard your dreams and in them dwell' over 'where mem'ries dwell', but only if the idea that the Eldar live in our dreams is supported by the Russian text.

Otherwise agree.

Duel:

-How about 'no ending tells their song'?

-'Stark' - I know. :-/ Happy to consider any alternatives, I struggled with that bit.

-Doubt: I'd love to keep the reference in, and I think the current line is the best we've had yet, but I'm still sure it can be improved. I like your interpretation.

Otherwise, and generally: accepted, and thank you.

Next up:

I'm perfectly happy to do Amarie's other song (she's a lot easier to work with than certain everyone-elses), and also the Brothers Feanorian. That would give me the Renunciation, the Quarrel, Luthien and the Feanorians (which I can't call At Bay, since she totally isn't), and Wind, which I think is enough to be getting on with for now. Will possibly start with the Quarrel.

I might also take Menegroth, since I think I'll have done everything else Thingol-Melianish, and I enjoy Melian's parts particularly.

(As for 'Halt' - isn't it a night-time halt on their journey? That's how I read it. If it's not, then perhaps the title is more like 'Pause'?)

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

However, during Beren's arrival to Nargothrond - if he spoke this way to Finrod "in real life", he's be shot dead a dozen times over, ring or no ring. And I broke up laughing during their Prison Duet, because just as Mr. Fierce is saying "there is no fairer face", he looks like his fist is about to correct the situation.

And this is why I quite like Jareth!Finrod - he has exactly the right expressions for someone dealing with ThugBeren. You can see him thinking, "Your father was scrawny and sarcastic, Beor was scrawny and sarcastic, how did you end up six foot four and full of muscle?"

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Hui

And this is why I quite like Jareth!Finrod - he has exactly the right expressions for someone dealing with ThugBeren. You can see him thinking, "Your*father*was scrawny and sarcastic,*Beor*was scrawny and sarcastic, how did*you*end up six foot four and full of muscle?"

Ah, so that's the reason for the nearly constant expression of passionate misery on his fair face!

I'm sorry, I'm teasing. Beren's "I'm so fierce I will rip out everyone's throats with my teeth" image is just too hilarious when he growls about Finrod's face. But in Nargothrod it's more his tone of voice that's bugging me. He's basically doing the opposite of begging for the help.

A quick reply to other stuff before work:

Heart: among the things I will look over again before I start anything new. Might tinker a bit with the rhythm stuff. But seriously, it looks very good as it is!

Epilogue:
- Forgiving all the Oaths is an option. I feel like they all sound worse than "ago", but that's not to be helped it we are to place forgiveness in there.

- Ooh, I like "Western Wind" as a reference there. I wonder if it's possible to still fit it with the rhyming scheme. Will think this out.

- Havens and on accepted (lol, you're right, it's not the failed attempts we wanna have)

- Re dreams stuff: none of these things are directly supported by the Russian text! It's all conjecture. Their song is maybe a little less blatantly meta, you need to listen twice before you realize the extent of it. So if we take that as an ideal, the line should apply equally well to Men and to readers. Most of the song also applies to Beren and Luthien, and I guess even this line sort of ties in, but at the same time this line sounds less B and L like.What about "to guard your dreams where stories dwell", as reference to Sam?


Duel:
- No ending tells their song also works! Just makes it a bit more clear which ending it's referring to.
- I will give the other two lines a thought..


Maybe I'll do Halt then, or whatever else inspires me next - but not until tomorrow at least. Halt... I think in the Libretto it's just called Beren and Finrod's Conversation at Night, but I'm not sure. I'll check it.

[Huinesoron]

I really like to guard your dreams where stories dwell - that's a lovely reference.

I think the Extended Libretto uses "Halt" for a new song featuring the Ten, with Finrod and Beren's chat being tacked onto the end but given a new title.

Speaking of songs that are split up differently: this one is split up differently in the Translation and Libretto, and for good measure, the final stanza is one I previously tacked onto the beginning of the next song along.

The Quarrel of the Sons of Feanor

CURUFIN:
What a fool he is, like a mewling infant
CELEGORM:
What did you expect from this sort of people?
CURUFIN:
Let him run! He wasn't suited for a throne.
CELEGORM:
Let him run away, we could use the distance
CURUFIN:
O, what bravery! O, he's such a hero!
CELEGORM:
Don't just stand there like a stump, pick up the crown.

BOTH:
Finrod has gone mad, clearly
Such a king's a danger, really
With him here it's just embarassing.
We can share the throne fairly
Space enough for two, barely
Yes, my brother, just what I'm thinking.

CURUFIN:
I have always felt that a throne would suit me
CELEGORM:
Like the crown would fit! Kid, you must be joking!
I'm the smarter one; I've got five years on you.
CURUFIN:
Why the arrogance?
CELEGORM:
--Do you want to fight me?
Watch your tongue, you cur!
CURUFIN:
--Hey, your ears are smoking!
BOTH:
There is nothing on which I agree with you.

How can we share power fairly?
Thrones only seat one, clearly!
There's no solving this without a fight.
CURUFIN:
One thing we've forgot, brother
The Oath we swore to Feanor!
BOTH:
--Oh,
We can't break it, even for this prize.

O Silmarils, bound to our honour
We call as witness the Powers of Arda
Cursed be the hands, Mortal or Vala
Daring to sully the gems of our Father
We swore this Oath, there in the Night
Swore to complete the Quest for the Light
One single hope for the House of the Houseless
Sworn is the Oath, though all Arda reject us!

The Mortal would take our Silmaril from us
None will survive who stand between us and our vows
Even the king Felagund couldn't stay back, went running off at his side
Their plan is crazy, but if they get lucky? Success we cannot abide!

Yes, if Finrod beats us to it
Then, brother, we'd ne'er forgive it!
So it seems we must go track him down.
He stands in the Oath's shadow
We simply cannot let him go
It's just a shame to give him back the crown.

THINGOL:
What's the purpose of this squabbling?
O! What drama am I witnessing?
I, my kinsmen, have a offer here
That will bring this tale to a fine ending!
I know exactly how to make this good
If you bring my daughter back at once
I will promise her in marriage
To whoever gives Beren the push.
Then as kings we'll rule my land as one
Live in harmonious bliss we've won
We'll have a grand coronation
For the other who'll rule Nargothrond!

CURUFIN:
Wait, you're saying there's a vacancy?

CELEGORM:
Wait, we're solving this amicably?

THINGOL:
Then as kings we'll rule my land as one
Live in harmonious bliss we've won

CELEGORM:
To miss out on this proposal

CURUFIN:
And jewel!

ALL:
That could never be forgiven!

MELIAN:
Elu, my dear husband, your course runs ill
You’ve become a fool, though you seem a hero
Sold your only daughter for a Silmaril
Now all I can hope for is the grace of Eru.

I've juggled the parts around a little; I think they're mostly swappable, except that we have to keep 'you cur' being said to Curufin. ^_~ I've allowed myself to be a little silly here, but I think it fits with the feel of the song.

hS

[Galadriel55]

I am glad I waited till my proper lunch break to read the song. I was giggling so much! Love it!!! The silliness is perfect.

A few verh small points:

- O, what bravery! O, he's such a hero!: is there a particular reason you didn't go for the more literal "Such heroic gestures"? I think it rhymes better with "distance".

- The whole squabble: it's brilliant! An absolutely inspired comedic section. The whole thing. (Btw, how old are they now - 200+ or something years old at least?)

- For the other who'll rule Nargothrond! --> "For the other brother" perhaps? It works without too, but as a slow "strong beats only" variant.

- Wait, we're solving this amicably?: I am pretty sure the Russian here refers to a parent's permission for the daughter's marriage, but I was laughing so much at the incredulity in your version. Oh Celegorm! Besides, Cur, don't you already have a kid and all? Don't get so excited!

[Huinesoron]

Most points accepted, with the reason being "I didn't think of that". Cel'n'Cur are... well, according to the Gateway's timeline, they're probably pushing 2000 (assuming they were born between Finrod and Galadriel). So yeah, it's a touch silly.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

- Wait, we're solving this amicably?: I am pretty sure the Russian here refers to a parent's permission for the daughter's marriage, but I was laughing so much at the incredulity in your version. Oh Celegorm! Besides, Cur, don't you already have a kid and all? Don't get so excited!

Ha! I mean, I could change it, but the incredulity is such fun. In my text Cel was the one who started the fight in the first place, so his bafflement totally fits.

I've started the Renunciation, too, because it fits together with the Quarrel [Edit: And then I finished it]

Finrod's Renunciation of Nargothrond

FINROD:
Nargothrond, you have been loyal
Oaths are spoken I must fulfil
Not so easy to hear, I know
But I call you to arms, people!
Nargothrond, you have known no grief
As you feasted behind stone walls
I sought not for this doom that falls
But beyond the woods hear, horns call!
The day has come for my fair city
If your hearts are true - come and follow me!

CURUFIN:
Hold your horses, king, let's not be hasty
You will surely die at the Iron Gateway
Just a second, king, come back to your senses
You've no right to drag others through your messes!
You alone have sworn oaths to him
I am not his friend - nor his paladin.

FINROD:
You have sworn no vows unto me, Oathtaker
You've no love for mortals, you are not my servant
But no-one is free to to forswear his promise
Neither king nor prince, neither bards nor warriors
We're bound in Song, and in songs to be
If you love me still - come and follow me!

CELEGORM:
I have words to say on this matter also
How my House has suffered at the hands of Morgoth!
By the blood we've shed, you can trust in our word
And your army, king, is completely absurd!
FEANORIONS:
No, we cannot defeat this Foe
If you go with him - it's to death you'll go.

FINROD:
So be it then, if you've so decided
Stay in Nargothrond, keep your power hoarded

FEANORIONS:
We have sworn an Oath, on a shore half-frozen
On our Foe revenge, at a time we've chosen

CELEGORM:
Reap revenge, or be slain as untrue
FINROD:
I wish no revenge, I declare by Eru!
There's no blood on my hands, they're clear
Those who spilled it once - are possessed by fear

FEANORIONS:
That's the second time you have called us cowards
For your words you'll pay, and the price is ours

FINROD:
I will gladly pay, such a meagre fee
We could have been brothers in my time of need!

CURUFIN:
You are no Vala, so lay off the judgement

FINROD:
If you shared my faith, we could be triumphant
I bare my soul, I stand revealed
But I find no sword - nor an offered shield!

CURUFIN:
See now Nargothrond, how the king is raving

CELEGORM:
Will you call him back? he's in need of saving!

CURUFIN:
Has his thirst for wine become thirst for battle?

CELEGORM:
He abandons you for a homeless vassal!

FINROD:
Farewell to you, fair Nargothrond...

FEANORIONS:
If you live him still - won't you go along?

FINROD:
So I'm unwanted, my own people spurn me
I leave a beggar, as when I came here
Here I built a home, it's become my fetters
May you never see, by Eru's kindness!

BEREN:
Sire, I thank you for being true

FINROD:
Take my crown and throne - I leave both to you!

Swapping 'Nargothrond' in for 'Мой народ' works surprisingly well, actually. The one artistic liberty I've taken is giving Curufin the line 'You're not a Vala'. This foreshadows the way Sauron defeats him, and is straight from the end of Canto VI of the Lay of Leithian:

So would they not that angry day
King Felagund their lord obey,
But sullen murmured that Finrod [ie, Finarfin]
nor yet his son were as a god.

... which is close enough to the rhythm of this song that I keep trying to parse it and tripping over the missing syllables.

(I am, more and more, convinced the subtitles have Cel and Cur backwards in the 2014 version; they seem to consistently get the 'wrong' parts. But I prefer black-headed Curufin, so it stays.)

hS

[Blind Guardian]

I don't have anything to add, I just wanted to say that I'm impressed by your dedication to this. These are funny and sound really good!

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Blind Guardian

I don't have anything to add, I just wanted to say that I'm impressed by your dedication to this. These are funny and sound really good!

Thank you! I really did only mean to translate one song... it's just so addictive!

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Cel'n'Cur are... well, according to the Gateway's timeline, they're probably pushing 2000 (assuming they were born between Finrod and Galadriel). So yeah, it's a touch silly.

So my Sil timeline must be completely off - though I suppose a good number of those 2000 years were spent before the Exile, and I have absolutely no clue how many years - centuries, even - happened in those chapters.

Originally Posted by Hui

Ha! I mean, I could change it, but the incredulity is such fun. In my text Cel was the one who started the fight in the first place, so his bafflement totally fits.

Yeah, exactly! Like, what? huh? we don't have to fight about this? Oh dear...


I love "Nargothrond" to replace "moy narod = my people". It fits wonderfully.

The day has come for my fair city

"The" sticks out just a tiiiny bit, and "Day has come" is weird. Could it become "Time/hour has come", perhaps?

By the blood we've shed

Squeeee! I'm really happy that this line retained it's moral ambiguity: we lost our blood fighting Morgoth vs we killed Morgoth's armies vs we butchered innocent people. They obviously don't mean the last, but Finrod echoes exactly that meaning, and I think it's delightful.

I bare my soul, I stand revealed
But I find no sword - nor an offered shield!

For the first line, I would suggest "and I stand revealed". [Edit: actually, never mind. It works better without the "and", if the emphasis falls as "I bare MY soul"]

For the second - did you change up the meaning intentionally? Because it's not exactly what the original says, but it's so ON POINT.

Has his thirst for wine become thirst for battle?

This is perfect!

If you live him still - won't you go along?

Spellcheck on "like". Fixed it in the Doc.

So I'm unwanted, my own people spurn me

"So I am" would probably sit better. You have shortened lines fairly frequently, and they mostly still work - but this one is so easy to unshorten that my fingers itched.

Originally Posted by Hui

The one artistic liberty I've taken is giving Curufin the line 'You're not a Vala'. This foreshadows the way Sauron defeats him, and is straight from the end of Canto VI of the Lay of Leithian

I think it works quite well!

Originally Posted by Hui

(I am, more and more, convinced the subtitles have Cel and Cur backwards in the 2014 version; they seem to consistently get the 'wrong' parts. But I prefer black-headed Curufin, so it stays.)

I feel like I've never really separated them in my mind, that pair always sticks together like glue. But I imagined Cel to have blondish hair and Cur to be darker, so I guess it fits in my mind too. And since you pointed out which was which in V2 (because of course I haven't actually bothered to check, as they are essentially mutually replaceable), I have Cur stuck in my head as having the creepy voice.

Originally Posted by Blind Guardian

I don't have anything to add, I just wanted to say that I'm impressed by your dedication to this. These are funny and sound really good!

Thank you! It's nice to know someone else is reading this.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

It's just so addictive!

Ha! That's exactly what I told you when I first succumbed to this! It’s a dangerous business, Hui, translating songs. You step into the musical, and if you don’t keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to.



PS: did you have an eye on Dream as well? I have a fledgling of an idea for Beren's part, but I can equally do one of the Beren/Finrod duets and leave this one to you if you wanna do the Luthien songs. Just putting this out there before I let the fledgling grow. :-)

[Huinesoron]

Quick note, will check later, but:

Originally Posted by G55

PS: did you have an eye on Dream as well? I have a fledgling of an idea for Beren's part, but I can equally do one of the Beren/Finrod duets and leave this one to you if you wanna do the Luthien songs. Just putting this out there before I let the fledgling grow. :-)

Go for it. I'll stick to Thingol, the Feanorians, and Amarie.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Go for it. I'll stick to Thingol, the Feanorians, and Amarie.

Despite promising myself not to write anything new today... I went for it. And I got several variations of a mix of Farewell Sweet Earth and the musical lyrics, of which I have to pick just 2 stanzas. And the two stanzas I like best are mutually exclusive. Aaaaaahhh! I will look at this with fresh eyes tomorrow, clean it up, and post a draft.

The fledgling of an idea was that some lines in Farewell Sweet Earth fit perfectly well to Beren's tune. What I did not account for is that the imagery and symbolism in the lyrics is different from The Sil, and now I can't pick whether I want the stronger words of the lyrics or the direct quotes from the poem! (Oh, the misery of choice...)

[Huinesoron]

Link to the English Libretto, since it's been a while.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

So my Sil timeline must be completely off - though I suppose a good number of those 2000 years were spent before the Exile, and I have absolutely no clue how many years - centuries, even - happened in those chapters.

Yeah, the idea that the Years of the Trees were ten times longer makes the pre-Sun timeline kind of wonky. But we're at least 460 years after Sunrise at this point, so they're pretty old whatever.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

"The" sticks out just a tiiiny bit, and "Day has come" is weird. Could it become "Time/hour has come", perhaps?

In this hour, my fair city

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Squeeee! I'm really happy that this line retained it's moral ambiguity: we lost our blood fighting Morgoth vs we killed Morgoth's armies vs we butchered innocent people. They obviously don't mean the last, but Finrod echoes exactly that meaning, and I think it's delightful.

Oh yeah, I could see the ambiguity here, and was very careful to keep it. At one point it was "By the blood we've shed, you can trust our judgement", but I couldn't find a rhyme, and the dual meanings of "we've got experience" and "we're trustworthy" in "our word" are fun.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

For the first line, I would suggest "and I stand revealed". [Edit: actually, never mind. It works better without the "and", if the emphasis falls as "I bare MY soul"]

Yeah, the emphasis was deliberate (I think!).

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

For the second - did you change up the meaning intentionally? Because it's not exactly what the original says, but it's so ON POINT.

Um... no? :-/ The subtitles give:

Now this bare soul can find no aid in a sword, nor protection in a shield

Which I thought is what I was going for.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Spellcheck on "like". Fixed it in the Doc.

"Love", to echo Finrod earlier.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

"So I am" would probably sit better. You have shortened lines fairly frequently, and they mostly still work - but this one is so easy to unshorten that my fingers itched.

's not my fault! They sing so fast!

I'm being driven batty by the fact that the Lay of Leithian so very nearly scans to this song. And, since we've got Appendix A in there specifically for stuff like this...

NARRATOR:
True the words he spoke, for when the king
To all his people told of this thing
And spake of the oath to Barahir
And how that mortal with shield and spear
Had saved them from Morgoth and from woe
On northern battlefields long ago.

Then were many kindled within their hearts
Once more to battle. But up there starts
Amid the throng, and he loudly cries
for all to hear, one with flaming eyes
proud Celegorm with the gleaming hair
and his shining sword. All men then stare
Upon his stern and unyielding face
And an awful hush falls upon that place.

CELEGORM:
Be he friend or foe, or foul demon wild
Of Morgoth, Elf, or a mortal child
Or any else that here on earth may dwell
No law, nor love, nor a league of hell
No might of Valar, no binding spell
Shall him defend from the hatred fell
Of Feanor's sons, whoso take or steal
Or on finding keep our Silmaril!

These we alone do declare our right
Our thrice-enchanted jewels so bright!

hS

[Galadriel55]

Now this bare soul can find no aid in a sword, nor protection in a shield

Which I thought is what I was going for.

Ah, one of those subtle differenves that build up. More literally, it's "Now to a bared soul no aid is a sword, no protection a shield". Regardless, I like where the chain of interpretation got to: that no support is coming to Finrod from his people. That's why I said it's so on point, even though it's not the semi-metaphysical reference that builds up to Finrod's preferred mode of duels. It fits so perfectly in the new meaning!

"Love", to echo Finrod earlier.

Is this the right time to go "lol, stupid autocorrect"?



Re: Lay - absolutely! In my head it scans both as the Renunciation of Nargothrond and as the Ballad to Amarie (the first lines, before it breaks the rhyming scheme and structure). Give it time, other melodies will likely follow suit.

[Galadriel55]

So I finally got it down to a choice between two versions for Beren's stanzas, as opposed to the initial five or so. I feel like the linguistic lace is slowly dying, possibly as a consequence of being just plain dead tired from staying up all those nights working on the translation. I might need a break, because I feel like instead of getting easier it's actually harder lately to make songs sound good. Anyways, here it is, in all its numerous alternatives glory:


LUTHIEN:
What do I care for noble oaths
They are swept on wind’s wings.
Under the leaves of beechen groves *
My days glowed with light!
You burst into my sleep like a ray of spring. [You tore through my slumber]

Let… heart over duty all decide
Love... is leading me to you once more.
My years rushed by as single hour
But I’ve awakened only now
And I will fight for that which always has been mine! [alternatively, leave as “take what is etc”]


BEREN:
Thus sang the twilight nightingale
When in love I have rejoiced…
To bird in tangled boughs the pale
Starlight lent its voice!

Birds without love can't sing their tune.
My life has no point without you! [I can have no place without you? Or something else altogether]
And Day and Night, and Life and Death
This world can only still enwreathe
That you would be there even for a single breath!
//
The dusk, the dawn, the earth, the sea
Only pervade expanses free
So even for brief moment Luthien should [would?] be! **


Know: you filled my heart with thirst for life
Know: my life by you is justified!
Without you earth and northern sky
Lose all their meaning in my eye
Through you alone I see the world without disguise!
//
The russet earth and northern sky
Without you valueless do lie
Through you alone the world holds colour in my eye! ***


BOTH:
Let... the wind rage over stronghold's walls
Love... will lead me back to you once more
Stronger than any griefs or woes
Worth more than victory or gold
A single battle fought: for victory of love...!



* The Russian says "poplars", but based on a quick Sil scan I thought beeches are more appropriate.

** I know Beren's main "point" is different between stanzas... But I really wanna use both versions! I love them both equally. I have to murder one of my brain children. It's sad. (Seriously though, I honestly don't know what to do. One moment I am leaning "the dusk the dawn" with its better rhyme and Tolkien reference, another moment I am leaning "And Day and Night" with its more powerful wording.)

*** Or any combination of the above, it's all interchangeable lines.

[Huinesoron]

Oh, lovely! Let's have a look.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

You burst into my sleep like a ray of spring.

The subtitles say 'dreams', and given the Epilogue I think that might work better than 'sleep' here.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

And I will fight for that which always has been mine!

I love this line. I don't think she uses 'take' consistently enough that we need to match it.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

When in love I have rejoiced…

I don't think 'have' fits... When in true love I rejoiced?

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

My life has no point without you! [I can have no place without you? Or something else altogether]

The first note is a long one, so 'I' would seem to work better. I... have no purpose without you?

Okay, I can't sing this for biscuits, in either version, so I'm just going to have to trust your scansion.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

And Day and Night, and Life and Death
This world can only still enwreathe
That you would be there even for a single breath!
//
The dusk, the dawn, the earth, the sea
Only pervade expanses free
So even for brief moment Luthien should [would?] be!

I like the Tolkien reference, but 'pervade expanses free' took me about five minutes to even understand. Let's see what we can do:

The dusk, the dawn, the earth, the Sea
Were but created and set free
So that for one brief moment Luthien should be!

'Set free' points to Finrod's theme of changing the Song, while 'one brief moment' references the fact that she's going to die. Neither of which Beren would mean, but, y'know, musical.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Without you earth and northern sky
Lose all their meaning in my eye
Through you alone I see the world without disguise!
//
The russet earth and northern sky
Without you valueless do lie
Through you alone the world holds colour in my eye!

Now this one I do have trouble choosing between. I like them both! Attempting a bit of combination:

The verdant* earth and northern sky
Without you meaningless do lie
Through you alone the world holds colour in my eye!

*Verdant over russet, because of this first line from Beren:

Forest is worn, lost is its green
Raiment

And then Luthien brings the colour back...

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Let... the wind rage over stronghold's walls
Love... will lead me back to you once more
Stronger than any griefs or woes
Worth more than victory or gold
A single battle fought: for victory of love...!

Hey, I recognise that! I'm really impressed you found 'stronghold's' to fit that first line; it works wonderfully.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

* The Russian says "poplars", but based on a quick Sil scan I thought beeches are more appropriate.

Beeches in Neldoreth, holly in Region, and I believe birch in Brethil. I walked through a beech-wood a couple of weeks ago; they're astonishingly open forests, not like anything else I've seen. I can understand why Thingol would set up shop there.

Overall, very nice! Even if both Berens take your 'When in love I have rejoiced' line and stretch... it... out.... end...... less................ ly.......... y. I really don't get their singing choices. o.O

hS

[Huinesoron]

On to Luthien and the Feanorians... this is a strange one, because it changed so completely between versions. I've followed the Version 2 text, but will add an Appendix B to include the Version 1 lyrics (or at least, those which are different).

I've also shuffled a few things round between the Brothers Feanorion; Curufin shouldn't be doing the flirting here! Perhaps Appendix C will resolve this...?

Luthien and the Feanorions

CELEGORM:
Daughter of Thingol, listen: we've nothing left to lose
You think this is fate, now you will follow blindly through
Think of the ones that brought you forth: a noble line!
Feanor's house, or arrogant mortal dispossessed - Choose one.

LUTHIEN:
Your house is lofty, but this is not your land
I come to speak with your king Felagund

CURUFIN:
There is no king in Nargothrond right now
All that remains of Finrod is his crown

LUTHIEN:
How could this be? Why would he leave his throne?

CURUFIN:
He has run off to chase your bold 'hero'!

LUTHIEN:
Is he leading an army to Land of Woe?

CELEGORM:
No, Finrod the Mad set forth alone.

LUTHIEN:
I respect your proud and ancient blood
Your noble birth will be as a spoken vow
That you'll guide me upon the northern road
And lead me to the borders of Lands of Woe!

CURUFIN:
Beautiful child, it's too late to alter fate

CELEGORM:
Your friend has fallen unmarked at the Iron Gate

CURUFIN:
Your friend has fallen, but you live on still

LUTHIEN:
Take me to see the place where Beren fell!

CELEGORM:
He's become a feast for crows and wolves

LUTHIEN:
Then I will kiss the ground where he lies still...

CURUFIN:
My brother, leave her be; there's madness in her now!

LUTHIEN:
My love is greater than I am.

CELEGORM:
-Let her face Morgoth on her own!

LUTHIEN:
It blinds me like a blazing sun.
For years I dreamed, but a new Law begins its song
Stronger than ties of blood, defying all reason

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

The subtitles say 'dreams', and given the Epilogue I think that might work better than 'sleep' here.

That one was difficult, because the Russian word could meen either sleep or dream. But I take your point about the Epilogue, so dreams it is!

Originally Posted by Hui

I love this line. I don't think she uses 'take' consistently enough that we need to match it.

No, she changes that line up - every time she gets to it? A couple times at least.

Originally Posted by Hui

I don't think 'have' fits... When in true love I rejoiced?

Does "When in YOUR love I rejoiced" sound weird?

Originally Posted by Hui

The first note is a long one, so 'I' would seem to work better. I... have no purpose without you?

The thing that goes against is purPOSE. What about "I no purpose have without you?"

Originally Posted by Hui

Okay, I can't sing this for biscuits, in either version, so I'm just going to have to trust your scansion.

^.^ I needed that humour just about now.

Originally Posted by Hui[i

The dusk, the dawn, the earth, the Sea
Were but created and set free
So that for one brief moment Luthien should be![/i]

'Set free' points to Finrod's theme of changing the Song, while 'one brief moment' references the fact that she's going to die. Neither of which Beren would mean, but, y'know, musical.

Well that makes my choice easier!

Originally Posted by Hui

The verdant* earth and northern sky
Without you meaningless do lie
Through you alone the world holds colour in my eye!

*Verdant over russet, because of this first line from Beren:

Forest is worn, lost is its green
Raiment

And then Luthien brings the colour back...

Hey, why not! Though this time it took me a double take to place "verdant". :P

Originally Posted by Hui

Hey, I recognise that!

Yeah. The farther we go along, the more things repeat or need to be referenced.

Originally Posted by Hui

Beeches in Neldoreth, holly in Region, and I believe birch in Brethil. I walked through a beech-wood a couple of weeks ago; they're astonishingly open forests, not like anything else I've seen. I can understand why Thingol would set up shop there.

I guess that also explains why Luthein's days are still alight under their canopies. I looked at pictures of both trees online too and decided beeches look prettier for the image as well.

Originally Posted by Hui

Overall, very nice! Even if both Berens take your 'When in love I have rejoiced' line and stretch... it... out.... end...... less................ ly.......... y. I really don't get their singing choices. o.O

I think this one is on the composer.


As usual ran out of time for typing on mh phone and have to go get ready for work. I read Luthien and the Feanorians, and overall it sounds very good! I had a couple very minor suggestions, which I will post up whenever I can, but the whole thing flows quite wonderfully. :-) V1 ises a totally different version of the scene, where Luthien's answer is simply "Love belongs to two people only... and I'll take back what always has been mine!". I like V2 better because it has more development for both story and characters. Also, did CelNCur just get blood-zoned? ^.^

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Does "When in YOUR love I rejoiced" sound weird?

...


The thing that goes against is purPOSE. What about "I no purpose have without you?"

Both sound good, the first more so; I'm not entirely convinced of 'I no purpose have'.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Also, did CelNCur just get blood-zoned? ^.^

You bet they did. ^_^ I actually deliberately played up the references in this song, such as the irony of a son of Feanor calling Beren "arrogant" and "dispossessed". Luthien is also throwing a lot of shade with:

Your house is lofty, but this is not your land

Because "lofty" is linguistically a synonym for "uppity", and "this" refers not only to Nargothrond, but to Beleriand itself.

I'm going to work on "Wind" now, but a thought threw itself into my mind: we've (I've) dropped the name of Morgoth a few times, when "the Enemy"/"the Foe" wouldn't scan. It's 100% accurate to the Silm, but... for the purposes of the Musical, is it worth changing it to "Sauron" where possible? Obviously not where there's a connection to the Silmarils, but in contexts of "fight the enemy"...?

hS

[Huinesoron]

Wind (Amarie's Dream)

Wind
Disturbing the slumber of the leaves
I call your name
Through the day and in ever restless dreams
Trees fall still
Like an army mourning their lost king
No sound tonight
But the branches bleeding

Wind
On the whispered midnight wind I heard
"To believe
Need neither sight nor waking mind"
On this grass
I see still the imprint of your feet
Not a sound
But the trees are bleeding!

Dust is swirling over woodland pathway
Shadows deepen under blooming lindens
Where were you, my lord of constant change
When we burned the ships that could bear us back again?
You should have stayed at my side

Wind
There's a wind that's moaning in the dark
Aiming
For a heart that's torn itself apart
Now you're gone
My whole world is like a house in ruins
Now you're gone
And my heart is bleeding!

Look:
How the stars are shining on the trees
Look:
When I speak your name the whole wood sings!
Back
From out of shadow come to me
In the night - and with night you'll heal me!

A bridge unseen will rise above us
From your hand to star-leaved maples
And with your crown of golden locks
Hang your head in answer when you hear me ask:
Why did you turn from my side?

Wind
Rushing through hidden forest glades
Hopefully
To meet your greeting on the way
I lie here
You are gone and I am left to stay
In the Night
And the Night is bleeding!

Wind
Give to me sleep or give me peace
Come the day
I'll remember once again my loss
Before dawn
Let me become as the silent trees
Let me stay
In the Night - let pain cease

The mist lies thick o'er woodland pathway
The leafy fingers weave their web
Lord, is all this world a lie?
Lord, have you truly in the darkness met your death?
If you'd returned to my side...

Wind...
Nothing but the wind...

I take justification for the single syllable 'wind' from the fact that Amarie swallows the second vowel, very nearly singing a single-syllable 'Vetr'. Also, it just flows better.

The trickiest line is right near the end:

Before dawn
Let me become as the silent trees
Let me stay
In the Night - let pain cease

The idea, is something about becoming as sap and either staying in the night, or freezing in the night. I've tried my best, but was constrained by the rhymes (because I really wanted to keep 'Give to me sleep or give me peace' in the first line of the stanza). Also, the Russian uses two words for 'liquid associated with trees', but English mostly just uses sap. 'Syrup', I guess, but that has the wrong connotations.

I also have no idea what she's going on about with the invisible bridge from Finrod's hand to the maple leaves, but that does seem to be what she's saying.

I... don't think this song really fits in the musical, sad to say. It's a lovely tune, but where do you put it? Before 'Truth', so we hear Finrod is dead, and then nope, he's back on stage again? Or after, diluting his own death-song with his ex going 'actually that makes me a bit sad'?

I think what's missing is the eucatastrophe element. Back in 'Heart', Amarie rejected her anger in order to send Finrod hope. Now, when he's coming back (albeit dead), she just mopes for a bit. She needs a verse or two of 'I will send the wind to bring you home'.

I would probably splice it into the middle of the song. We've already got the 'From out of shadow come to me' verse - all it needs is a bit of tweaking to the 'star-leaved maples' verse, and maybe to the preceeding 'house in ruins' verse, and you'll have a perfect structure: she realises he's dead, she reaches out to his spirit, but she still laments the loss. It comes after 'Truth', as a mirror of sorts to Galadriel's opening Lament.

(I know exactly why it was put before 'Truth' in the recording: to give Finrod time to change costume! But that's not really relevant to us.)

EDIT: You know what... I think they did do this, it's just lost in translation. Check out this alternate reading of the 'maples' verse:

Let my words flow out between us
Bear you back to star-leaved maples
And with your crown of golden locks
You will hang your head in answer when I ask:
Why did you turn from my side?

The trouble is, Google wants the bridge to come from Finrod. If it's going to him, then the maple thing makes sense too: her whole previous verse is 'the forest is mourning you', so now she's calling him back to it. So she can tell him off, which frankly he still deserves. ^_~ I think I vastly prefer this read. I might go back and work more tree references into the other verses to make them fit it.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I'm going to work on "Wind" now, but a thought threw itself into my mind: we've (I've) dropped the name of Morgoth a few times, when "the Enemy"/"the Foe" wouldn't scan. It's 100% accurate to the Silm, but... for the purposes of the Musical, is it worth changing it to "Sauron" where possible? Obviously not where there's a connection to the Silmarils, but in contexts of "fight the enemy"...?

I don't think so, at least not at the top of my head. Sauron is the villain of Finrod's story, but not the main villain of Beren and Luthien's story. I don't think it's better to make Sauron into a Morgoth or vice versa, they have their own roles in the musical. I did notice that the original musical never actually mentions Morgoth by name, though there are many possible explanations for this. (Also, confusingly they keep referring to Morgoth's lands as having snows and ice etc, which is not an obvious reference in my mind). I don't believe it ever uses "Enemy/Foe/etc" to refer to Sauron though. All Sauron gets is bat-like Death.

Just a quick question here:

The dusk, the dawn, the earth, the Sea

Did you capitalize Sea on purpose? The online (I know...) Sil text I used for reference has it lowercase.

Luthien and the Blood-zoning

(In my head I am already referring to Melian's Aria as The Tonguelashing. This one will have to be The Bloodzone.)

Feanor's house, or arrogant mortal dispossessed - Choose one.

For rhythmic purposes, it would be nice to have a third syllable in "choose one". I am not sure how to do it; "now choose one" and "choose but one" aren't right. "You decide"? Doesn't have the same command tone. It's gotta be something good.

I come to speak with your king Felagund

Oh, that would gall them so much, to have Finrod named as their king! Yesss!

Is he leading an army to Land of Woe?

An alternative: "Is he leading a force to the Land of Woe?". Not sure which of "army" vs "force" works better, but "force" gives you "the". Food for thought.

I love Finrod the Mad!


Plan for the evening: listen to Wind (because that melody just goes in one ear and out the other, I can never remember even what that song is about), and add comments about that one.

[Galadriel55]

First of all, I am having a lot of trouble keeping on top of the melody in Russian (maybe that's why it never stuck in my memory). Therefore, I am having trouble with scansion with most lines, because even as I'm listening to the song in parallel and finger-counting the beats I still get lost. Therefore, will defer any rhyme/rhythm commentary for now and just stick to content and general comments. Maybe if I listen to it enough times the beat will come to me.

Originally Posted by Hui

The trickiest line is right near the end:

Before dawn
Let me become as the silent trees
Let me stay
In the Night - let pain cease

The idea, is something about becoming as sap and either staying in the night, or freezing in the night. I've tried my best, but was constrained by the rhymes (because I really wanted to keep 'Give to me sleep or give me peace' in the first line of the stanza). Also, the Russian uses two words for 'liquid associated with trees', but English mostly just uses sap. 'Syrup', I guess, but that has the wrong connotations.

Right! That! She wants to be, uhhh, sap and resin - and to, uhhh, solidify/freeze [and metaphorically stay] inside this night. Basically, she's making an oblique analogy to amber, where she is the sap that wants to freeze and not flow further, from what I can understand.

But the line that actually stood out to me is earlier in the stanza:

Come the day
I'll remember once again my loss

"At dawn I want to accept the emptiness".
I feel that the line in Russian is out of sync with the rest, because right after she wants to freeze in time and never get to that dawn. So I'm confused about what she wants. If you wanna work an element of acceptance in somewhere, you have the "canonical" basis to do so. But in this spot I feel your take works much smoother.

Originally Posted by Hui

I also have no idea what she's going on about with the invisible bridge from Finrod's hand to the maple leaves, but that does seem to be what she's saying.

To maple stars, to be exact. Are they literal stars above maples or something? Or metaphorical star-shaped leaves? Who knows. *shrug*

Originally Posted by Hui

I... don't think this song really fits in the musical, sad to say. It's a lovely tune, but where do you put it? Before 'Truth', so we hear Finrod is dead, and then nope, he's back on stage again? Or after, diluting his own death-song with his ex going 'actually that makes me a bit sad'?

I have to agree. A piece that I'm missing is what exactly is Amarie grieving here. Is she grieving Finrod's death? Is she grieving their parting (uhgain)? Is she just mad that he left her? It seems like she's a bit hormonal and latching onto the nearest thing for emotional outflow. In the middle of the song she becomes all hopeful and ?possibly refers to Finrod being reborn (When I speak your name the whole wood sings! Back From out of shadow come to me). But then she chastises him again for leaving (hey, didn't you already accept that piece half the musical ago?), and returns to not being at peace (yes, we got it already), and only then "feels the pang of his death", so to speak? This progression is messed up and is throwing me off completely.

Originally Posted by Hui

I think what's missing is the eucatastrophe element. Back in 'Heart', Amarie rejected her anger in order to send Finrod hope. Now, when he's coming back (albeit dead), she just mopes for a bit. She needs a verse or two of 'I will send the wind to bring you home'.

Exactly! And by the way, if she had that line, I would have loved it! Especially with all the references to the wind.

Originally Posted by Hui

(I know exactly why it was put before 'Truth' in the recording: to give Finrod time to change costume! But that's not really relevant to us.)

Well, it comes after Truth in the Libretto. And it makes sense, because if done logically this should be Amarie grieving Finrod's death but welcoming his rebirth back in the West.

Originally Posted by Hui

EDIT: You know what... I think they did do this, it's just lost in translation. Check out this alternate reading of the 'maples' verse:

Let my words flow out between us
Bear you back to star-leaved maples
And with your crown of golden locks
You will hang your head in answer when I ask:
Why did you turn from my side?

Yes, they sort of do it, with the "bridge". Except the imagery is lost, because rather than a bridge to any meaningful symbol, it's a bridge to some unheard of maple stars, and good luck figuring out what exactly Amarie means with her analogy - Finrod's connection to her? Finrod's connection to the West? His death? His power to bridge the worlds a la Glorfindel in LOTR? And it's followed by "you should be ashamed of yourself", which falls so anticlimactically.

For the record, I like your second version better, because it strengthens the element of connection between Finrod and Amarie and gives Amarie an active part of "wishing" him back. And if you rework the song to help Amarie untangle her feelings a little bit, I think it would not go amiss.

As for who the bridge goes to: unfortunately Google is right, and in the literal sense it does go from Finrod to the maple stars (I am still not convinced if these are supposed to be stars or leaves). But it's not a strong directionality, it could also just be two endpoints in no particular order. Both interpretations work fine, if this line is taken in isolation. It sticks a bit out of context, so it's hard to interpret it without the isolation.

[Galadriel55]

As I had no internet for the entire morning, I was working on this piece from memory, and I'm rather proud that a good chunk of it was written without any aid from Google! On the flip side, one stanza is in bad need of rhyme/synonym suggestions to reword the phrases. Had to change the ending, because of course I remember V1 better ("The price to stand before the throne of Day"), but it's different in the newer lyrics, and it has to be replaced because otherwise Finrod's and Beren's final duet doesn't make sense. The duet is an expansion on the changed stanza. Also, for logic purposes, I think the duet should go after Captivity. First of all, it makes more sense for the duet to happen when there are only the two of them left. Secondly, in Captivity Finrod still thinks he will be the last to die, it's in the duet that he asks Beren to go ahead of him (or, in V1, in the "price" stanza).



ELVES:
The ice of our enchanted bonds chills
And the dark is frightening. <--[EDITED late for rhythm]
Like hammer falling on a cracked (?) shield
The foe is hammering.

SAURON:
Who will first confess his feeble nature under pain? *
Who will be the first to break beneath the weight of chains?
Many captives I have known, and none were made of steel!
May the first among this band be last his death to feel!

ELVES:
Through years of hardship we held hope high
And despite heavy load
We followed the Oath through the Great Ice
Through Death, onward...
Alas! we cannot cross the Sea twice
By foot or boat...

SAURON:
I sense vague unease about that upstart ministrel **
Who would dare to challenge me in song to battle fell.
I think that the rest of them won't be of any gain,
Let the strongest warrior the last alive remain!

ELVES:
Like piercing arrow through the throat, ruthless ***
Cuts breath, cuts song... [cuts thread? as reference to the Duel, as opposed to just life]
FINROD:
I've been a proud king. How upon my death
I shall be known
When I am left alone in this darkness?...

SAURON:
Not much courage needed to meet dreadful death but once,
But with each companion he will face it many times!
He will be the witness and the cause of their demise. [He will hold the blame for every death before his eyes. - I think I prefer this version. Or maybe not. Flip flop time.]
For his bold impertinence this is a worthy price!

FINROD:
The price for which my honour to defame,
To leave it in the dust, defiled and ravaged.
Don't lie to me that you know not my name!
Don't lie to me that your price seems too lavish! ****

BEREN:
Perhaps there lies a curse upon my fate.
Forgive me that I did not see it sooner!
FINROD:
The grief is not that you were then too brave,
The grief is that you are bereft of hope now... [here? For the rhyme?]


* This creeps me out more than I expected. I was hoping to go for the same feeling with "dreadful death" in Sauron's last stanza, but the more creepy variants (horrifying, agonizing, etc) are a syllable too long.

** When internet turned on, google told me it's not spelled that way (duh, it's said that way in Russian, and I can't keep my languages straight). But those lines were so hard to get to rhyme!

*** How bad is it? Yeah, never mind, it's that bad... As an alternative:
Like ruthless arrow pierces life, cuts off
Breath [thread], cuts off song

Nah, still weird.

**** Google to the rescue, and suddenly it starts sounding good!

A late edit: I am thinking "Don't lie to me that you guessed not my name". Less literal, but I think more fitting.

Also, now having doubts about "lavish" in this context, though I have lovely rhymes for it and all. Trialing another version to have something to pick from:
The price for which my honour to defame
To trample in the dust [to ravage and defile] my last posession.
Don't lie to me that you guessed not my name!
Don't lie to me that your price is excessive!