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#1 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
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the foundations of this world are good, and it turns by nature to good, healing itself from within by the power that was set there in its making; and evil in Arda would fail and pass away if it were not renewed from without: that is: that comes from wills and being that are other than Arda itself. [Morgoth's Ring]The parallels between "The Keeper of Traken" and Tolkien haven't escaped those producing Doctor Who themselves it would seem. I don't know how people consider the Big Finish audios (like the show itself they are of extremely variable quality) but one good quality Peter Davison instalment from 2007, "Circular Time," cements this link. In episode 3, "Autumn," the Doctor and his companion Nyssa of Traken are holidaying on Earth in what appears to be the late 20th or early 21st century. While the Doctor is playing cricket, Nyssa sets about writing a novel about Traken (note that Nyssa is one of the last Trakenites: the Traken Union was destroyed by the Entropy Wave unleashed by the Master in "Logopolis," the serial following "The Keeper of Traken"). She describes her novel to a young human man, Andrew, who asks her (if I recall correctly) if it is "like The Lord of the Rings." Nyssa, of course, is an alien, and doesn't understand what he means. That brings up another point: Doctor Who has a long history of using various "humanoid aliens" who are superficially identical to humans. In the Classic Series the Doctor had multiple alien companions of this kind (Romana, Nyssa, Adric and Turlough) in addition to his original companion, his granddaughter Susan. Despite their typically superior scientific knowledge these characters tended to be just as foibled as any 20th Century human. This I think evokes the argument in Professor Tolkien's works that even "higher beings" like Elves and the Ainur have "many degrees of error and failing" for such is the nature of life and existence. Even were we to become like them, we would not escape it.
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. Last edited by Zigūr; 05-12-2015 at 07:45 AM. |
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#2 |
Wight of the Old Forest
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
Posts: 3,329
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Thanks for your interesting observations, everybody! Obviously there are way more parallels than I was thinking of (although the Doctor and the Master as Gandalf and Saruman had occurred to me). Got to admit that while I've seen most of Nu Who my knowledge of Classic Who is more than sketchy - I have Beginnings (the first three episodes of William Hartnell) and Revisitations (select episodes of Troughton, Pertwee, Tom Baker and Davison + the 1996 movie) and have of course done some online research, but I was quite unaware of the existence of the Melkur or the Celestial Intervention Agency
![]() One more thing that has come to my mind beyond the Doctor as "Space Gandalf" concerns the two-part finale of the most recent series (Dark Water / Death in Heaven). It begins with the death of Danny Pink, lover of the 12th Doctor's companion, Clara Oswald - who subsequently, with the Doctor's help, goes on a quest to find Danny in the afterlife (aka the Nethersphere) and, if it can be done in any way, bring him back. Doesn't this sound a lot like Beren and Lśthien? Unlike Lśthien, Clara doesn't die herself, but in her telephone call with Danny's uploaded mind she makes it clear that she'd be willing to, if that's what it takes to be with him. However, both that part of the Lay of Leithian and the Who episodes are also gender-reversed reworkings of the myth of Orpheus and Eurydice, which would explain the parallels without any direct influence. (By the way, Hookbill, unless a miracle happens I won't be able to attend Oxonmoot, but I would be very interested in that paper.
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Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI |
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#3 |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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Something to think about: Davros. If Gandalf is analgous with the Doctor, and Saruman with the Master, is Davros more Sauron or Melkor?
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Gordon's alive!
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#4 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
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-as Morgoth was the "creator" of Orcs (corrupter of Elves/Men), Davros is the "creator" of Daleks (corrupter of Kaleds) -as Sauron acted to "improve" an existing creature (Orcs into Uruk-hai), Davros acted to "improve" the Kaleds - by making them into a "superior" race -like both Dark Lords, Davros is more dangerous because of his plans and the forces he can muster at his disposal than he is as a combatant - he is dangerous, and so were Morgoth and Sauron, but personal confrontation was rarely how they operated. That being said, Davros stories tend to involve personal confrontations between Davros and the Doctor. The exception I suppose is Remembrance of the Daleks where they communicate remotely but never actually come into each other's presence -I'd say in some respects Davros is more like Sauron in that his nihilistic tendencies are outweighed by his power-lust. For instance in Genesis of the Daleks he tells the Doctor that he would willingly commit genocide because it would make him like a god: that seems more Sauron-like than Morgoth-like to me - Morgoth, at least by the end of his character arc, would I think commit genocide out of pure hatred rather than because it made him feel powerful/important. But that might be a stretch. It's a tough one. I think he evokes elements of both characters. At the same time, however, the crucial difference is that Davros is vulnerable to his own creatures: in Genesis he is attacked by the Daleks, in Destiny they merely want to use him to outwit the Movellans, in Resurrection, Revelation and Remembrance he only controls one Dalek faction, at war with another. There's certainly no comparison in Professor Tolkien's fiction: it would be as if Morgoth or Sauron were threatened by their own Orcs, an absurd idea. In that respect Davros too might be more like Saruman: both are "genetic engineers" (Saruman developed his own Uruk-hai and his half-orcs) and both are betrayed by servants (the Daleks and Wormtongue respectively). I've actually seen it argued that Davros is more accurately the Doctor's opposite number than the Master is (in a theory which perceives Davros as the more complex antagonist and the Master as more of a stock "evil twin" character). So in that respect Davros may indeed be more like the Saruman to the Doctor's Gandalf. That being said, the Master's penchant for hypnotism evokes Saruman's Voice. So it's complex.
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. |
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#5 | ||
Alive without breath
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: On A Cold Wind To Valhalla
Posts: 5,912
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Sauron might be better seen as the Cybermen. He is the master of other wills, can influence thoughts and twist them to his own devices, removing that which he dismisses as irrelevant. He would create a world under his mind, a single mind controlling all.
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I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once. THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket... |
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#6 |
Alive without breath
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: On A Cold Wind To Valhalla
Posts: 5,912
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So, for anyone who is interested, I did my talk on this very topic at Oxonmoot!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xGU2I2uxGQ If anyone wants the full transcript just ask and I'll send it to you. ![]()
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I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once. THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket... |
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#7 |
Wight of the Old Forest
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
Posts: 3,329
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*raises hand* Pretty please?
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Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI |
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#8 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,481
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So I am watching this show - nothing big, you know, just to pass the time, uh, several hours a day... It makes chemistry class more entertaining: CARBOXYLATE! PROTONATE! PRECIPITATE! Anyway, can't comment on classic Who or the last two Doctors - I've only just finished the second season of New Who, but here's a couple other things.
It's been said over and over again in cross-fandom references that the Ring is a Horcrux. Well, in a way, the TARDIS is the Ring. Or a ring. For one thing, it's not just your regular piece of technology; it's not just made, it's more alive than a collection of metal parts (dunno if the rest of the series reveals more about that). It has a sort of mind and abilities of its own... not sure if I want to call it alive, but like the Rings of Power (especially the One Ring), it certainly has some sort of independent conscience. However, it seems to be tied to to the Doctor's life as well. The TARDIS doesn't work properly without the Doctor, and the Doctor isn't complete without the TARDIS, almost like they share some part of their collective being. The Doctor without the TARDIS is like a Ring-bearer without a Ring: they may be special, but they lost the primary thing that channeled their "special" into something physical. Looking into the TARDIS is dangerous, like it's dangerous to wear a Ring of Power without having adequate strength of will to control it. Unlike the Ring, though, the TARDIS doesn't have evil motivations, if I may say so, but rather it would help you do the good that you want to do. While the Ring gives power to do evil and eventually corrupt oneself completely, the TARDIS is like a judge of right and wrong who grants you temporary power to fulfill a wish if that wish is right. Finally, on a more superficial level: immortality! Regarding the Doctor himself, he seems to me the stuff of tragic heroes. Pick any tragedy from the legendarium, and there will be a parallel. (Though he reminds me most of the narrator in The Book Thief - not gonna spoil the book for you if you haven't read it, but they are so alike it's almost disconcerting). Elves have been mentioned as a parallel, but I don't think the mortal/immortal relationships have been explored yet. Classic case is the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, or even the death of Beren. Much though the Doctor resembles Gandalf, he doesn't have the same sort of calmness and wisdom. He's wise, and he'd do the right thing even if it kills him, but he lacks a certain peace or faith that Gandalf has. Since I mentioned Luthien, I wonder if the Doctor would give up immortality for a companion. He'd die to save others' lives, but to just stop being immortal. Give up being a Time Lord. I don't know. And last but not least: bananas! A good source of potassium! ![]()
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#9 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,481
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Instead of working on my final assignments, I've been watching the Fourth Doctor. Thinking I'd extend the pleasure of procrastination, I revisited this thread and found this gem.
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In the episodes of New Who, this analogy doesn't really fit anymore. I was somewhat confused about who he was and what he did in the Tenth Doctor's episodes, but in The Magician's Apprentice / The Witches Familiar (one of my all-time favourites), he really is more of a Saruman. He has the nominal respect of the Daleks, and they do serve him - and obey him, to an extent - but really he is the one dependent on them, while they would live on perfectly fine without their leader. He wouldn't dare command anything too preposterous because his authority is so shaky, like Saruman did not really have authority over the Ruffians. They pillaged and plundered what they would - with Saruman's name and blessing - but had Saruman told them to actually risk their lives for something, that would have been the end of his rule. And weak and powerless, he rejects help and redemption, and is finally overcome by his own servants whom he had put down for too long - Wormtongue for Saruman and the Sewer Daleks for Davros. Mind you, Davros probably still isn't dead, but definitely foiled by his discarded "children". Maybe they are the same. Maybe Saruman is indeed a Boromir who took the Ring, and Davros in Genesis is just Saruman when he starts out while in Magician's Apprentice he's the Saruman in the Scouring of the Shire. I suppose Davros is a combination of Saruman's appreciation of lore/science, and the tendency to study things by dissection and remake them his own way, and Boromir's lust for battle glory and the greatness of Gondor. In unrelated news, I may be needing a new scarf. ![]()
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#10 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,481
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With all the talk about Saruman characters, I can't believe this scene has not been discussed yet (searched the thread, didn't come up, but might have missed a small mention).
I was just reading Scouring of the Shire - Formendacil's CbC posts prompted a haphazard reread - and I was reminded forcibly of S3E13 Last of the Time Lords ending (can watch here and here). It just struck me how similar is the role of forgiveness is in both cases - the weaker but wiser character making the whole world-wrecking campaign worthless because he forgives the revenge instead of responding to it. I think both are great examples of the power of forgiveness and non-aggression (hey kids, wanna end bullying? ![]() There are a lot more things in common between the two scenes, the forgiveness aspect just struck me first. The angry vengeful petty character destroys the world most beloved by his perceived adversary (in fairly similar ways too if you think about it). Following a massive rebellion the angry character loses power and is condemned to an exile from the world / sphere of influence he formerly had. The suffering populace desires his death and even attempts execution, but is stopped by the wise sad character, who forgives the angry character's destruction and even attempt at his own life, offering understanding, pity, and hope of redemption. However, what no one realized is that the most desperate person around, the one driven to the furthest extremes, is the closest companion and partner of the angry character - and the companion is finally driven too far and unexpectedly kills him. The passing of a great being reduced to petty revenge is a sad event, but only the wise sad character really understands just how much of a loss it is. Now which story did I just describe? ![]()
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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