The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-13-2020, 06:48 PM   #1
Victariongreyjoy
Haunting Spirit
 
Victariongreyjoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 99
Victariongreyjoy has just left Hobbiton.
Invading Valinor impossible?

Where there any moments in the timeline of Morgoth that he could lay siege on the Undying Lands? Or is it simply beyond his power?
Victariongreyjoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2020, 07:23 PM   #2
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,058
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
It was said that Morgoth's servants feared the Sea, and it's notable that neither he, nor later Sauron, ever had a navy of any sort.
In any case, I don't think it possible that he could have attacked Valinor with any hope of victory without his minions, and it's out of the question that a force that large moving toward the Helcaraxë could have escaped the notice of the Valar.

Of all his servants, only Sauron, and possibly the Balrogs and dragons, could have been any problem for the Valar at all.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2020, 06:28 AM   #3
Zigűr
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Zigűr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
Zigűr is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Zigűr is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
I agree. I think Valinor was beyond the threat of military force; the whole continent of Aman was effectively fortified by sea and mountain. It took Morgoth hundreds of years to muster sufficient might to overmatch the Noldor and their allies at the Bragollach. I doubt he posed a military threat to Valinor. It worked much more in his favour to infiltrate the Blessed Realm as a prisoner and corrupt it from within (much as Sauron would later do with Númenor, and I can't believe I only just noticed the significance of that parallel).
__________________
"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir."
"On foot?" cried Éomer.
Zigűr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2020, 02:04 PM   #4
mhagain
Wight
 
mhagain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The best seat in the Golden Perch
Posts: 219
mhagain has just left Hobbiton.
Melkor was probably at the height of his powers as the Dark Lord of Utumno, in the years before the coming of the Elves and even before the founding of Valinor. At that time he was able to make an assault on the Valar, and destroy the Lamps, but even so he was still driven back and had to go into hiding in Utumno.

The Silmarillion notes:
Quote:
And the Valar could not at that time overcome him, for the greater part of their strength was needed to restrain the tumults of the Earth, and to save from ruin all that could be saved of their labour; and afterwards they feared to rend the Earth again, until they knew where the Children of Ilúvatar were dwelling, who were yet to come in a time that was hidden from the Valar.
So it seems clear that even then the Valar could have overpowered him, if they hadn't been distracted by other concerns. Subsequently there were only two main conflicts, the Sack of Utumno and the Captivity, and the War of Wrath, in both of which the Valar were victorious (it's actually doubtful if the Valar even took part in the War of Wrath).

So no, it doesn't seem likely that Melkor/Morgoth would have been able to undertake a successful attack on Valinor at all.
__________________
Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said that he had come out of pity.
mhagain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2020, 02:12 PM   #5
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,694
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
In the end Sauron did it with the help of the Númenorians. And doing it with an big army of Children of Ilúvatar was the one move that made the Valar hold back, I think.

As an aside thought: The idea of an Amry of Men invading Valinor was in away recurring: At the end of one version of The Book of Lost Tales their is mentioned a prophecy that such a invasion would occure after the return of Melko and that the behaviour of Men in that fight would decised the way of the end of the world.

Respectfully
Findegil
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2020, 10:04 AM   #6
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,058
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
In the end Sauron did it with the help of the Númenorians. And doing it with an big army of Children of Ilúvatar was the one move that made the Valar hold back, I think.
Right. The Valar were capable of dealing with Númenor, but felt they lacked the authority. They were 'governors' of Arda, but were hesitant to annihilate an entire race of people, especially one that had been given special reward for their allegiance in the past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
As an aside thought: The idea of an Amry of Men invading Valinor was in away recurring: At the end of one version of The Book of Lost Tales their is mentioned a prophecy that such a invasion would occure after the return of Melko and that the behaviour of Men in that fight would decised the way of the end of the world.
The lore concerning the 'end times' of Arda has always fascinated me, and that's something I really wish there was more 'canon' available for.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2020, 10:48 AM   #7
William Cloud Hicklin
Loremaster of Annúminas
 
William Cloud Hicklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,299
William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
The Lost Tales era really envisioned an "end time" which had already occurred, and Aelwine/Eriol was to have witnessed it.
__________________
The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.
William Cloud Hicklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2020, 12:28 PM   #8
Huinesoron
Overshadowed Eagle
 
Huinesoron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,778
Huinesoron is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Huinesoron is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
The lore concerning the 'end times' of Arda has always fascinated me, and that's something I really wish there was more 'canon' available for.
Personally I hold that the tale of Morgoth being chased up a tree and spending the rest of his days knocking down stars while Varda fixes them up behind him is 100% canon to the published Silmarillion.

(BoLT 2: The History of Eriol, excerpt 4. This happens before the Eriol-witnessed apocalypse WCH mentioned, because BoLT.)

hS
Huinesoron is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:12 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.