Man/Orc Reproduction - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 12-12-2003, 09:56 PM

When/if men are mixed with orcs, as discussed in other threads, what happens to the children? As i understand it, orcs are corrupted elves, and as such are immortal, while men are mortal.
When elves and men marry, then the elves become mortal, and the children have a choice (Elros/Elrond). Does this happen with orcs?

I am assuming that men do breed with orcs, because elves do not reproduce fast enough to create large armies. And orcs do, as far as i know, reproduce in the manner of the children of illuvatar.

There are many threads on similar topics, but not the same topic, do not turn this into a discussion of those topics.

BASIC IDEAS:
Orcs are corrupted elves
They were, in the first or second age, bred with men. This also happened in the third age.
Orcs reproduce like men and elves

Gashberz · 12-13-2003, 01:03 AM

See I dont really know because they have "spawning pits", so that would defeat the whole pupose of them breeding. Correct me if I'm wrong plz.
-Cheers!

Noxomanus · 12-13-2003, 06:09 AM

Spawning pits are a movie thing.Fact is,they're never mentioned in the books while the Silmarillion says something like "the Orcs multiplied in the manner of the Children of Illuvatar" Nuff said.

Eöl · 12-13-2003, 07:16 AM

you can find all the info you'll probably need, right here

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 12-13-2003, 10:12 AM

Well, that was an interesting link. However, no one has answered my question.
What i want to know is, when orcs and men are mixed/reproduced/(insert theory here), are the offspring immortal? I think that orcs are immortal, because they are corrupted elves, but obviously there is some link between men and Uruk-hai, or men and goblin-men. If orcs are immortal, which I think they are, are the offspring immortal when mixed with men?

This is my question, do not argue with me about orcish immortality!

Eol Telemnar · 12-13-2003, 10:24 AM

Alright, Tuor, Here is my answer. I say yes and no, because that depends on if the orc is immortal or not. If the orc is not immortal, then their is no chance that the offspring will be. I the orc is immortal, then I think there is a 50/50 chance. Hey, Tuor, did you see my post in are orcs immortal? I told you to do something, go back to that topic (are orcs immortal) I asked you do do two things.
1.go change your profile to allow private messeges
2.visit my new topic, in this forum, it's called "Castles in Middle Earth" see ya [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Eol Telemnar · 12-13-2003, 10:31 AM

Reading the question a little more carefuly, I say that the offspring gets to choose IF The orc is a corrupted elf (which is a 50/50 percent chance. Then again, It might not be, then there is no chance.Hope I was any help [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Gashberz · 12-13-2003, 12:08 PM

Well if you really think about it this way then their not cause they only live like 10-15 years cause they end up dyinbg in some war or qurrel. So thats an odd point of view for you guys.
-cheers!

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 12-13-2003, 01:31 PM

Eol-
So, you think that the orcs are sometimes immortal, sometimes not. OK, thats your opinion.

Gashberz-
Even if orcs are not 'immortal' in that they live forever', some are immortal in that, if not killed, they would live forever.
Some i believe are not immortal, and some are.

Everyone-
I believe that the goblin men were created by mixing orcs with men. Orcs are corrupted elves. The manner in which they were mixed does not matter. If there are uncorrupted elves mixed with uncorrupted men, the offspring have a choice over whether to be 'immortal' or not.
I still want your opinion on what happens if orcs(corrupted elves) are mixed with men. I already have Eol's opinion, although i do not believe it.
THIS is the topic of the thread, NOT orcish immortality.

**The Saucepan Man** · 12-13-2003, 07:05 PM

With regard to the offspring of a union between a mortal and an immortal, the "default setting" is that the children will be mortal.

As for half-elves, the choice of immortality was given only to the sons of Earendil and Elwing (ie Elrond and Elros) and to the children of those who were given the choice and chose immortality (ie the children of Elrond). That choice was given to them by the will of Eru. There was at least one other Elf/Human union where the half-elven children were given no such choice (Imrazôr the Númenorean and Mithrellas the Elf, from whose line Prince Imrahil was descended). Look here for more detail on this.

So, assuming that Orcs could be immortal AND assuming that immortal Orcs were crossed with humans, the offspring would have mortal blood and therefore be mortal. And I cannot see Eru giving them the choice of immortality. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 8:06 PM December 13, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

Eol Telemnar · 12-13-2003, 10:00 PM

Tuor, You know what I mean! I did not say that they are sometimes immortal. (this is about the 50/50 chance, is it?) Well, about that, it means that if the offspring gets to choose, they only have two choices, which is a 50/50 chance. That's how I explain that (just in case you got that confused)

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 12-14-2003, 04:34 PM

Yes, well, i think that Saucepan Man's idea makes more sense than any of the others.

Ok, I will now IGNORE THIS TOPIC. I am done with it.

12-12-2003, 09:56 PM	#1
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth... Posts: 137	Man/Orc Reproduction When/if men are mixed with orcs, as discussed in other threads, what happens to the children? As i understand it, orcs are corrupted elves, and as such are immortal, while men are mortal. When elves and men marry, then the elves become mortal, and the children have a choice (Elros/Elrond). Does this happen with orcs? I am assuming that men do breed with orcs, because elves do not reproduce fast enough to create large armies. And orcs do, as far as i know, reproduce in the manner of the children of illuvatar. There are many threads on similar topics, but not the same topic, do not turn this into a discussion of those topics. BASIC IDEAS: Orcs are corrupted elves They were, in the first or second age, bred with men. This also happened in the third age. Orcs reproduce like men and elves __________________ Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered. No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not!

12-13-2003, 01:03 AM	#2
Gashberz Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: San Diego, U.S.A Posts: 57	See I dont really know because they have "spawning pits", so that would defeat the whole pupose of them breeding. Correct me if I'm wrong plz. -Cheers! __________________ "We are the fighting Uruk-hai! We slew the great warrior. We took the prisoners. We are the servants of Saruman the Wise, the White Hand: the Hand that gives us man´s flesh to eat!" -Uglúk

12-13-2003, 06:09 AM	#3
Noxomanus Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 233	Spawning pits are a movie thing.Fact is,they're never mentioned in the books while the Silmarillion says something like "the Orcs multiplied in the manner of the Children of Illuvatar" Nuff said. __________________ Nothing is evil in the beginning,even Sauron wasn't

12-13-2003, 07:16 AM	#4
Eöl Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Nan Elmoth Posts: 35	you can find all the info you'll probably need, right here __________________ '...though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again,from you and from me a new star shall arise' -Huor

12-13-2003, 10:12 AM	#5
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth... Posts: 137	Well, that was an interesting link. However, no one has answered my question. What i want to know is, when orcs and men are mixed/reproduced/(insert theory here), are the offspring immortal? I think that orcs are immortal, because they are corrupted elves, but obviously there is some link between men and Uruk-hai, or men and goblin-men. If orcs are immortal, which I think they are, are the offspring immortal when mixed with men? This is my question, do not argue with me about orcish immortality! __________________ Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered. No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not!

12-13-2003, 10:24 AM	#6
Eol Telemnar Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: At my house, on my computer (where else would I be? Posts: 89	Alright, Tuor, Here is my answer. I say yes and no, because that depends on if the orc is immortal or not. If the orc is not immortal, then their is no chance that the offspring will be. I the orc is immortal, then I think there is a 50/50 chance. Hey, Tuor, did you see my post in are orcs immortal? I told you to do something, go back to that topic (are orcs immortal) I asked you do do two things. 1.go change your profile to allow private messeges 2.visit my new topic, in this forum, it's called "Castles in Middle Earth" see ya [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Eol Telemnar, The Dark Elf , Has Spoken, Heed My words well. Peace go with you.

12-13-2003, 10:31 AM	#7
Eol Telemnar Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: At my house, on my computer (where else would I be? Posts: 89	Reading the question a little more carefuly, I say that the offspring gets to choose IF The orc is a corrupted elf (which is a 50/50 percent chance. Then again, It might not be, then there is no chance.Hope I was any help [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Eol Telemnar, The Dark Elf , Has Spoken, Heed My words well. Peace go with you.

12-13-2003, 12:08 PM	#8
Gashberz Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: San Diego, U.S.A Posts: 57	Well if you really think about it this way then their not cause they only live like 10-15 years cause they end up dyinbg in some war or qurrel. So thats an odd point of view for you guys. -cheers! __________________ "We are the fighting Uruk-hai! We slew the great warrior. We took the prisoners. We are the servants of Saruman the Wise, the White Hand: the Hand that gives us man´s flesh to eat!" -Uglúk

12-13-2003, 01:31 PM	#9
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth... Posts: 137	Eol- So, you think that the orcs are sometimes immortal, sometimes not. OK, thats your opinion. Gashberz- Even if orcs are not 'immortal' in that they live forever', some are immortal in that, if not killed, they would live forever. Some i believe are not immortal, and some are. Everyone- I believe that the goblin men were created by mixing orcs with men. Orcs are corrupted elves. The manner in which they were mixed does not matter. If there are uncorrupted elves mixed with uncorrupted men, the offspring have a choice over whether to be 'immortal' or not. I still want your opinion on what happens if orcs(corrupted elves) are mixed with men. I already have Eol's opinion, although i do not believe it. THIS is the topic of the thread, NOT orcish immortality. __________________ Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered. No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not!

12-13-2003, 07:05 PM	#10
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	With regard to the offspring of a union between a mortal and an immortal, the "default setting" is that the children will be mortal. As for half-elves, the choice of immortality was given only to the sons of Earendil and Elwing (ie Elrond and Elros) and to the children of those who were given the choice and chose immortality (ie the children of Elrond). That choice was given to them by the will of Eru. There was at least one other Elf/Human union where the half-elven children were given no such choice (Imrazôr the Númenorean and Mithrellas the Elf, from whose line Prince Imrahil was descended). Look here for more detail on this. So, assuming that Orcs could be immortal AND assuming that immortal Orcs were crossed with humans, the offspring would have mortal blood and therefore be mortal. And I cannot see Eru giving them the choice of immortality. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] <font size=1 color=339966>[ 8:06 PM December 13, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ] __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

12-13-2003, 10:00 PM	#11
Eol Telemnar Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: At my house, on my computer (where else would I be? Posts: 89	Tuor, You know what I mean! I did not say that they are sometimes immortal. (this is about the 50/50 chance, is it?) Well, about that, it means that if the offspring gets to choose, they only have two choices, which is a 50/50 chance. That's how I explain that (just in case you got that confused) __________________ Eol Telemnar, The Dark Elf , Has Spoken, Heed My words well. Peace go with you.

12-14-2003, 04:34 PM	#12
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth... Posts: 137	Yes, well, i think that Saucepan Man's idea makes more sense than any of the others. Ok, I will now IGNORE THIS TOPIC. I am done with it. __________________ Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered. No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not!