The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Movies
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-05-2005, 08:45 PM   #1
jordainian
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Sting why do elves need to go to the undying lands?

Elves are supposed to be immortal so why do they need to leave middle earth and and go to the undying lands.Throughout the movies elrond talks about his daughters death. Can someone please fill me in on what is going on here?!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2005, 05:37 AM   #2
Eyrie
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
The Elves don't need to go to the Undying Lands. If they wish (which they seldom seem to do) they may stay in Middle-Earth until Dagor Dagorath [Doomsday]. On the other hand there isn't much left for an elf who stays behind. Your life would just be lurching in the shadows in an everchanging world. Now that wouldn't be too good for your mental health Elves also felt a yearning to leave for a better place, and that place was of course the Undying Lands.
The death of an elf is also a bit exceptional since they first go to Halls of Mandos and after that they might get a new body. They are chained to this world so to speak. Men on the other hand die and go where nobody knows (except Erú).

Now Elrond and his children are an exception, because Elrond is half-elven and that gives him and his children a choice. They may choose an immortal life and leave for the Undying Lands if they wish, or they can stay behind and die as humans. I think there are threads here that discuss this choice more on deepth, so I won't go into that. I'll just say that Elrond chose the life of an elf and thus he also got a yearning to sail West. Arwen on the contrary chose the mortal life (because she married Aragorn etc.). Now imagine being a father who's only daughter is going to die (and stay dead until the new theme of Erú) while you yourself will live on in this world for almost all eternety. I think that's reason enough to talk a whole 9 hours about your daughters death.

This was of course a very short presentation of the whole matter. I'd recommend to do a search on topics about the subject if you wish to know more. I bet there are a lot of long debates around some of the subjects I took up here.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2005, 06:26 AM   #3
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,507
Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
White Tree

Eyrie, I think you explained it quite well, no need to go into too much detail here.

Yes, elves are immortal, but that only means they can't die of old age or sickness. They can still die from a broken heart (fragile people I say) or in battle. The elves go to the Undying Lands because that marks an ending point to their life. Now, as Eyrie said, not all decide to go there, some decide to stay in Middle-earth when they will just be forgotten and fade away.

It seems you have a misconception about the Undying Lands, that it makes the people who go there immortal. Mortals who go there (Frodo, Bilbo, and eventually Gimli and Sam) will die there eventually. The Undying Lands doesn't make people immortal, the mortals who go there eventually die.

On half-elves, Eyrie explained this well, no need to go into much detail. Elrond kept saying Arwen was going to die because she was a half-elf and was going to choose a mortal life. Half-elves get this choice. Since Arwen chose to marry Aragorn, she revoked her elvish life, and would die shortly after Aragorn's death.
__________________
Fenris Penguin
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2005, 06:35 AM   #4
Mithalwen
Pilgrim Soul
 
Mithalwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,451
Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Elves are bound to the earth and they do age albeit very slowly. As they age their spirits become dominant over their physical bodies until they become beings of spirit only (this explains in the created mythology why we don't see even a few elves around today.. ). This is referred to as the fading of the elves - this process was held back in Rivendell and Lorien by the power of the Elven rings.
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”

Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace
Mithalwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2005, 01:16 PM   #5
Tuor in Gondolin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southeast Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,651
Tuor in Gondolin has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via Yahoo to Tuor in Gondolin
I believe the "refusenik" elves (who didn't originally go to Aman) have
to stay on Middle-earth, and will gradually fade, while the remaining Noldor (after The War against Melkor) and the half-elven have a choice of staying and fading
or going to Aman, according to past discussions and some reading by me
in Tolkien's works. Whereas I originally thought all elves had the choice of
the half-elven.
__________________
The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin.
Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'
Tuor in Gondolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2005, 01:20 PM   #6
Anguirel
Byronic Brand
 
Anguirel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The 1590s
Posts: 2,778
Anguirel is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Tuor-it's more like this-

Half-elves-death on Middle-earth or eternal life in Valinor. No fading.

All Elves, including "refuseniks"-fading on Middle-earth or eternal life in Valinor.
__________________
Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter
-Il Lupo Fenriso
Anguirel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2005, 12:00 PM   #7
Legolas
A Northern Soul
 
Legolas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,847
Legolas has just left Hobbiton.
Being immortal, elves attempt to be preservers - they try to halt change as much as possible. Change can even give men turmoil in our short lives, so it wears and tears even more on elves as they live thousands of years. In Aman, they may rejoin their kin and live in a place that changes very little.

Elrond's concern for his daughter is different, as noted by the others before me. I wrote a full explanation of Elrond and his family's mortal/immortal situation here. Simply put, they are half-elven (on each side of their family tree is the union of a man and elf). His family did many great things, and as their ancestors, he and his parents, brother, and children have the choice - mortal or immortal. He chose immortality, and his children have to make their decision before he leaves (or very shortly after).
__________________
...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.
Legolas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2005, 05:48 PM   #8
SunniGadi
Animated Skeleton
 
SunniGadi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Massachusetts. Yay.
Posts: 26
SunniGadi has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to SunniGadi Send a message via MSN to SunniGadi
Elves are immortal in the since that they can froever age, but they can still die.

And I never remember Elrond talking about Arwen dying, just about Aragorn and their potential children dying, her having to stand and watch them pass.
__________________
~~~~~~~~~

Stuff should go here. It might eventually.
SunniGadi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2005, 06:00 PM   #9
wilwarin538
Fluttering Enchantment
 
wilwarin538's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,508
wilwarin538 is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.wilwarin538 is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Send a message via MSN to wilwarin538
Quote:
And I never remember Elrond talking about Arwen dying, just about Aragorn and their potential children dying, her having to stand and watch them pass.
Well even though Arwen did choose a mortal life, it would still take a while longer for her to die. Almost like the imortality takes awhile to leave her. I think Elrond was just saying that even though Arwen would be mortal she would still out live Aragorn by quite a bit, possibly even her own children(but I doubt that).
__________________
Comme une étoile amarante Comme un papillon de nuit C'est la lumière qui m'attire La flamme qui m'éblouit
Fenris Muffin
wilwarin538 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2005, 07:39 PM   #10
radagastly
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Washington, D. C., USA
Posts: 299
radagastly is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
It should probably be mentioned at this point that those half-elven who chose mortality and their descendents (including Aragorn) had the freedom to choose the time of their death. They must die, but they could take the time to come to terms with it first, to finish their task before leaving behind the bonds of Arda. This is why I think that if Arwen had recanted her mortal choice when Aragorn died, she still could have sailed into the west and rejoined her father there, instead of journeying to Lorien and lying down on Parth Galen. That, to me, is part of what makes her passing so moving.
__________________
But all the while I sit and think of times there were before,
I listen for returning feet and voices at the door.
radagastly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2005, 04:10 AM   #11
ElentariGreenleaf
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
ElentariGreenleaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Look, I'm over there!
Posts: 496
ElentariGreenleaf has just left Hobbiton.
I've always felt kinda sorry for elves. I mean, surely immortal life would get kinda dull. And half-elves having to pick between immortal and mortal lives. Cruel Eru! Cruel!
__________________
There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.
Website|Art
ElentariGreenleaf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2005, 06:46 AM   #12
Lalwendë
A Mere Boggart
 
Lalwendë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
There is also a certain expectation that Elves will go to the Undying Lands. Those who refused to go are somewhat diminished. For Elves who have already died, who have only their Fea, to refuse to go to the Undying Lands and the Halls of Mandos is viewed as wrong. It is said that such 'houseless' Elves are incredibly vulnerable to corruption from dark forces and can be dangerous, sometimes inhabiting trees and rocks. For more, have a look at HoME X.

One question which fascinates me is how and why did Elros and Elrond come to the decisions that they made over their fate?
__________________
Gordon's alive!
Lalwendë is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2005, 12:41 PM   #13
Tuor of Gondolin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles)
Posts: 1,548
Tuor of Gondolin has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Posted by Radagastly
"This is why I think that if Arwen had recanted her mortal choice when Aragorn died, she still could have sailed into the west and rejoined her father there, instead of journeying to Lorien and lying down on Parth Galen. That, to me, is part of what makes her passing so moving."
==========

Check the appendix to LOTR. It's actually curious. Radagastly's view is that of
Aragorn's, while Arwen disagrees. As, I believe, JRRT does in Letters. But it
is a curious exchange between Aragorn and Arwen.
__________________
Aure Entuluva!
Tuor of Gondolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2023, 01:25 AM   #14
stevensimth3675g
Newly Deceased
 
Join Date: Jun 2023
Location: United States
Posts: 1
stevensimth3675g has just left Hobbiton.
Elves are indeed immortal in the sense they won't die of old age, but they can die from grief or severe wounds. The journey to the Undying Lands allows them a peaceful existence without these woes. When Elrond talks about his daughter's "death", he means her choosing a mortal life with Aragorn, which will eventually lead to her physical death, something Elves aren't accustomed to. It's a metaphorical death from his perspective as an immortal being.
__________________
WhatsApp Dp
stevensimth3675g is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2023, 01:13 PM   #15
Abdullah89
Newly Deceased
 
Join Date: Sep 2023
Posts: 1
Abdullah89 has just left Hobbiton.
In spite of their slow aging, elves are tied to the earth. In the folklore that has been established, this is why there aren't even a few elves left around today. As they get older, their spirits take control over their physical bodies until they are only spirits. The Elven Rings' strength at Rivendell and Lorien prevented what is known as the "fading of the elves" from occurring there.
____________________

Last edited by Abdullah89; 09-18-2023 at 09:09 PM. Reason: Spam
Abdullah89 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:00 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.