A Worm with Wings?

[The Saucepan Man]

Sorry for starting another “wings” debate, but this is a Question that came up in the Middle-earth Flora & Fauna game in the Quiz Room. I have tried searching and skimmed a few threads, but found nothing definitive.

My question is: Did Scatha have wings?

As far as I am aware, there is no mention in the Appendices to LotR of Scatha having wings. He is classed as a “Long-worm”, which might suggest that he was wingless. However, as Gwaihir pointed out on the Quiz thread, “Worm” is a term used in the past to refer to Dragons generally, including the winged variety.

Views expressed on past threads differ on this. In Concerning Cold Drakes, a very old thread, Hunter Two One stated that Scatha was non-winged. However, there is no justification given for this and the thread is in any event based on the assumption that Scatha was a Cold-Drake, which I believe is not the case. More helpfully, Sharkû posted the following in Dragons of the Third Age:

"550-597. The dates of 'the last war of the Elder Days' were changed to 545-587, and after the last words of the original entry the following was added: 'Ancalagon is cast down by Earendil and all save two of the Dragons are destroyed.'" (HoME XI, 3, V)

This quote from the Tale of Years is unambiguous as to the dragons surviving the fall of Angband. They were Scatha and Smaug.

Clearly, if Scatha was from Ancalagon’s squadron, then he was winged. But, even taking this as cannon, I do not see the unambiguity here. As I stated on that thread, it seems to me that other Dragons must have escaped or been released from Angbad before it fell in the War of Wrath, since there seem to have been more than just two of the beasties about in the Second and Third Ages. Quite possibly, Scatha was one of these, or a descendant of one of them. And therefore not necessarily winged.

The final piece of evidence that I have been able to track down on this is the entry for “Long-worm” in the The Encyclopedia of Arda, which states:

A type of dragon found in the northern parts of Middle-earth, and perhaps elsewhere. The most famous long-worm (and in fact the only one that Tolkien explicitly identifies) was Scatha of the Ered Mithrin, who preyed on the Dwarves and Men of the Grey Mountains, and was slain by Fram of the Éothéod.

Though Tolkien gives almost no clues about long-worms in the text of The Lord of the Rings, his illustrations of dragons give us some further hints. Tolkien's dragons tend to be sinuous, serpentine creatures, having the appearance almost of a winged snake rather than the more traditional dragon-form. This would explain the term 'long-worm' easily. It's interesting to note that Tolkien gave this form to another northern dragon, Smaug, which strongly suggests that he, too, was one of the long-worms.

Again, the assumption is that Scatha had wings, but it seems to be pure speculation based on Tolkien’s drawings of Dragons. And we know that at least one of Tolkien’s Dragons, Glaurung, had no wings.

My own view is that, since Scatha post-dates the appearance of Ancalagon and the other winged Dragons (at least in terms of his appearance in Tolkien’s works), he was winged. Otherwise he would represent a retrograde step in the development of Dragons (although I don’t want to get into the touchy subject of evolution here). Then again perhaps Scatha is descended from Glaurung’s stock. There is nothing, as far as I am aware, to suggest that Glaurung was the only non-winged Dragon that Morgoth created, nor that non-winged Dragons ceased to exist when Ancalagon and his cronies appeared.

Anyone have any further thoughts on this, or able to supply a more definitive reference?

[Telchar]

I can't answer your question Saucepans. As I said in the quizroom I have always thought of Scatha as a non-winged dragon.

However, there is no justification given for this and the thread is in any event based on the assumption that Scatha was a Cold-Drake, which I believe is not the case.

I don't think of Scatha as either a cold- or a firedrake, simply because there is no mention of this, but as you say yourself he/her (we dont even know the gender) doesn't have to be a cold-drake to be wingless - he could well be a wingless firedrake like Glaurung.

I think my reason for thinking that Scatha was non-winged was that he was given the title 'The Worm'. I know that there is a single line in The Hobbit where Smaug is also refered to as a worm, but when I think worm - I think 'something-that-crawls'. But thats just my thought.

Personally I do not think that Scatha and Smaug were the two drakes that escaped the fall of Angband, because Smaug refers to himself as young when he descented on Ereborg - but old now...

The colddrakes Thorin said bred on the Withered Heath - there is no logic in assuming that the dragons escaping the fall of Angband were the only two we have names for.

[Olorin_TLA]

I've always thought of him as wingless; this is (a) because worm to me suggests wingless, and (b) the worms bred in the Iron Hills, and in Thror's map the illustration of Smaug is, as you say, a seprent with wings, but that of "a worm" indicating a "here be dragons" status for the Iron Hills has no wings.

Maybe flimsy evidence, but there's not a lot to go on.

(At any rate, that would indicate a non-winged one survived to breed...if a winged and non-winged mated, it coul very well be that some offspring had wings, some didn't. It would be possible, and helps expalin the 2 dragons survival thing (if it's canon) whilst allowing the various drake strains to live on.)

[Finwe]

Since Glaurung was the first Dragon, he could very well have been the only one without wings. Morgoth could have been "perfecting" his breeding techniques after Glaurung was "spawned/born," making the Dragon a sort of lab experiment. I think that Ancalagon and his squadron were the Dragons that Morgoth really wanted in his armies, because they caused th emost devastation, so, naturally, he would have bred more of those.

It is quite possible that Scatha had wings, and it's also possible that he didn't. He could have been another one of those "lab experiments" that had managed to escape from Angband before it was destroyed.

[The Saucepan Man]

... but when I think worm - I think 'something-that-crawls'.

... worm to me suggests wingless

Worms as we know them are also limbless invertebates. But I doubt anyone imagines Scatha to lack backbone or legs.

I really don't think the title "worm" is of any probative value. "Worm" and "wyrm" are terms traditionally used to refer to Dragons of all shapes, sizes and flying capacity.

I was wondering whether there are any other hints in Tolkiens works, specifically the HoME series, which I have not yet read.

Edit:

I think that Ancalagon and his squadron were the Dragons that Morgoth really wanted in his armies, because they caused th emost devastation

Bah! Glaurung caused far more suffering and devastation than Ancalagon could muster, for all his mightiness and wing-iness. But, you are of course right. A Dragon with wings has far more capacity to cause devastation than a Dragon without, all else being equal. Ancalagon just never lived up to his potential, poor lamb. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ October 17, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Maéglin]

In the Hobbit I think someone does call Smaug a 'worm' but that to me sounded like an insult rather. You know because Smaug has been lying there for ages, calling him a worm could be like calling him to be too fat to fly or something. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Glaurung was indeed not the only wingless Dragon. The Nirnaeth Arnoediad Chapter of the Silmarillion describes

Morgoth loosed his last strength, and Angband was emptied. There came wolves and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs, and dragons, and Glaurung father of dragons.

Ancalagon and his winged brood were first seen in the last battles of the War of Wrath when Morgoth knew that his defeat was nigh. They were just his secret weapons. Although it is strange. Didn't Morgoth believe and was so confident that he had utterly defeated all his foes on Middle Earth and that the Valar would not assail him, being content in their own realm. So why did he need the Winged Dragons? Just a side project for him when he was bored?

[Olorin_TLA]

To conquer more places. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[nobody]

I always thought there were three types of dragons: Winged Fire-drakes (like Ancalagon), Non-winged fire-drakes (like Glaurung) and Cold-drakes (like the one that killed Dáin I) and that Smaug was the last of the first variety (I'm certain that that last fact is in the books somewhere). I heard somewhere that Scátha was a cold-drake and didn't have wings, but I have no evidence for that.

[Gurthang]

Well, I would have to go with the fact that Scatha had wigns becaues it was further down the line. It seems that wings would have been better in a fight, so why would Morgoth breed a later-age dragon without them.

But all this seems to come back to the creation, breeding, and other unknown characteristics of dragons, so we can't really come up with anything more than an educated guess.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I would have to go with the fact that Scatha had wigns becaues it was further down the line.

Ah, but this could be refuted:

...and they guard their plunder as long as they live (which is practically forever, unless they are killed)...

(The Hobbit I)

Scatha could have survived Angband's fall, and crawled - or flew - to the Withered Heath.

[Gurthang]

Indeed.

But I had always heard that she/he was not one of the original dragons(aka: those released from angband for the first time), and that after that they started to appear with wings.(not wigns; my mistake)

[The Saucepan Man]

But I had always heard that she/he was not one of the original dragons

I am not aware of any reason why Scatha could not have been, or been descended from, one of thosee original wingless Dragons.

Nice to see this thread back, but I fear that there is no definitive answer.